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Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by sytelus on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:02PM (#20621013)
This could have been very ugly:

the 10-kg drone suffered an uncontrolled crash “in a wooded area of Zurich’s university quarter only 50 yards away from a group of playing kindergarten children.”

One of the things that few people are aware about is quadrotor MTBF is very low relative to other common vehicles. For many drones, the expectation for failure dramatically increases just after 100-200 hours of operation[1]. Figuring out points of failures, building systematic fault trees and increasing MTBF by order of magnitude or two would be big part of the drone delivery projects.

[1] https://catsr.vse.gmu.edu/SYST490/490_2014_SPDAV/DST-NSPDAV_...

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by crazygringo on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:32PM (#20621195)
Wow, that's shockingly low. The paper doesn't describe why -- do you have any idea what part(s) are failing so quickly? The rotors, the motors, the battery?

For commercial delivery service, it seems quite clear that we'll need either

1) "enterprise-grade" drones (like difference between consumer and enterprise SSD's),

2) reliable sensors to detect imminent failure before a flight,

and/or 3) easy replacement of failing parts.

I mean, for many hobbyists 100-200 hrs seems like a reasonable cost/benefit tradeoff... but not even close for commercial delivery services.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by jacquesm on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:15AM (#20622622)
> do you have any idea what part(s) are failing so quickly? The rotors, the motors, the battery?

It doesn't really matter what fails, what matters is that there is no way to do a controlled descent once anything goes wrong on a loaded drone because there is no margin for error. A drone this heavy relies on the whole chain of components functioning perfectly.

I'm surprised it is as good as it is given the number of parts. If it were a winged drone you'd at least have a chance to glide it to a safe spot, but a drone that is kept up by spinning props can only crash uncontrolled. There was a video of downing one in a more controlled way but the only fault it could cover was single rotor failure and even then the amount of control was very limited.

These things have absolutely no business over areas occupied by people.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by pfundstein on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:20AM (#20622943)
> what matters is that there is no way to do a controlled descent once anything goes wrong on a loaded drone because there is no margin for error.

Not entirely true. The drone had a parachute system to allow a controlled descent in situations like this and an alarm to alert nearby people to its descent. The problem here was that the parachute's single tether was severed shortly after deployment.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by shkkmo on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:28AM (#20625451)
> The drone had a parachute system to allow a controlled descent

The parachute would allow the drone to avoid a rapid descent. Most parachute systems are not steerable/flyable so they won't make it a controlled descent.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by ksaj on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @11:31PM (#20631782)
Parachutes won't control the descent. Might slow it down a little, but that is of arguable value if all 10 kg landed on top of those kids mentioned in the article.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by pfundstein on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @01:06AM (#20632114)
They don't control the descent, but they do control the descent. That is the descent (rate thereof) is controlled to a safe speed while the alarm alerts those below of its approach.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by rkagerer on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:13AM (#20622907)
They have parachutes installed. In the 2nd crash it deployed but the line hit a sharp part of the craft and was severed. Upgrades are being made (redundant cords and metal braiding) and the whole fleet was grounded in the meantime.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by michaelt on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:54AM (#20624309)

  If it were a winged drone you'd at
  least have a chance to glide it to
  a safe spot, but a drone
The last time I looked at the retail quadcopter/RC plane market, when faced with a communications failure most of the quadcopters would return to the launch point and safely land. None of the RC planes had such a function - most seemed to just turn off the propeller and glide in whatever direction they were facing at the time.

Seemed to me the quadcopter response to communication failures was a much safer one. Is this still the case? It was quite some time ago.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:29AM (#20624505)
>The last time I looked at the retail quadcopter/RC plane market, when faced with a communications failure most of the quadcopters would return to the launch point and safely land. None of the RC planes had such a function - most seemed to just turn off the propeller and glide in whatever direction they were facing at the time.

Once you have a quadcopter you've got enough digital hardware and software that adding "return to base" is basically free since it's just an additional software routeine.

RC planes don't already have the required hardware/software to implement a return to base feature because they don't need it and of course nobody is going to greatly increase the cost and complexity of the product just to add that one feature.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by 83 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @11:10AM (#20625837)
A handful of the quad controllers also support planes. I have multiple RC planes with that functionality - it adds a little complexity but not a ton.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by shkkmo on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:19AM (#20625351)
> The last time I looked at the retail quadcopter/RC plane market, when faced with a communications failure most of the quadcopters would return to the launch point and safely land.

That isn't really accurate at all.

> https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-t1000fc-auto-pilot-syste...

>https://www.amazon.com/Parrot-Disco-FPV-minutes-goggles/dp/B...

Very few micro and mini quads have this functionality.

Return To Home functionality is common any medium and larger RC aircraft intended for FPV flying.

Often fixed wing RC with RTH functionality won't attempt to land, it return to home and enter a circular holding pattern until contact is re-established or the battery fails.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by raxxorrax on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:37AM (#20625523)
I tested some quadcopters and all had the behavior to land immediately on connection loss, no matter what is below them. Better not have something like that happening above a pond. So no automatic navigating to a starting point. It has been a few years, maybe that changed.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by cronix on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @11:13AM (#20625862)
3D Robotics Solo has that feature (return to launch), but that was 5 years ago now. You could also set it so when the battery started to get too low it would return home as well. But that was one of the most advanced hobby drones in terms of software that existed at the time. DJI now uses it as well. It's all built into ardupilot. http://ardupilot.org/
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by kenneth on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @04:58AM (#20623476)
Is there any reason a drone couldn't autorotate like a helicopter does to slow its descent?
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by Merad on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:17AM (#20624422)
A helicopter's rotor has a complex control system that has you changing the pitch of the rotor blades and the angle of the rotor disk, with the rotor behaving similarly to the wing of an airplane. Quadcopters usually rely purely on thrust for control. For example to bank, the motors on one side spin faster (more thrust) and the motors on the other side spin slower (less thrust). If you lose a motor, or lose the ability to control a motor, you lose the ability to control the quad.

In comparison, a helicopter will have a clutch that can disengage the rotor from the engine and let it turn freely. The pilot still has the ability to control the rotor, so she has some control during the autorotation. At the end, just before landing/impact, she will perform a flare, using the rotational energy in the rotor to slow the helicopter's descent.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by extropy on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @05:32AM (#20623661)
For autorotation you need to passively stay upright and a certain propeller area to weight ratio.

All of which are not present in a typical multirotor.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by FabHK on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:24PM (#20628578)
And you need pitch control ("collective").
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by rurounijones on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @05:37AM (#20623686)
Helo autorotation largely requires the momentum of the blades to keep going after engine failure (as well as the pitch and forward momentum). I don't think the blades on small drones are heaby enough to store enough momentum for autorotation.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by baddox on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @11:10AM (#20625827)
More importantly, most drones cannot physically adjust the tilt of the rotor blades (which is called collective pitch control in helicopters). Helicopter autorotation requires rotors with a lot of angular momentum and usually an abrupt change in the collective pitch right before landing to turn that momentum into thrust and slow the helicopter down.

There are RC aircraft with collective pitch controls, like most RC helicopters and even some multirotors. These RC aircraft generally can autorotate, as well as do things that are probably not practical for full-scale aircraft to do, like fly upside down. :)

A collective pitch quadcopter flying upside down: https://youtu.be/MVL_Hf4ilLg?t=162

An RC helicopter doing, well, all sorts of acrobatics that hardly make sense: https://youtu.be/KmPchrGW1TQ?t=48

An RC helicopter autorotating: https://youtu.be/bxQ5kwqiPN4?t=136 (this one has an internal combustion engine, although that shouldn't make much of a difference for autorotation)

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by cmurf on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @05:43PM (#20629978)
>that hardly make sense

Just a guess: stronger strength to weight, and power to weight ratios, compared to the real thing. The tail rotor in particular appears to be quite a bit more powerful for the weight of the model than would be expected in a full size aircraft. And then also, these kinds of movements with a person inside? Haha! No!

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by baddox on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:12PM (#20630912)
Yeah, I've been pretty deep in the RC community, but what doesn't make sense to me is the physical skills of pilots like that! Handling orientation changes like that is insanely difficult. I practiced flying RC helis for a while in a simulator and even the basic orientation exercises are pretty challenging.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by hyperpallium on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:35AM (#20622743)
Why not autorotation? https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation

Is it less mass and therefore momentum in the rotor/drivechain?

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by jacquesm on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:48AM (#20622789)
That needs forward flight to work. A quad copter does not have a glide ratio high enough that it would be able to start up the rotors to spin fast enough to get some lift out of them. A quad copter is best modeled as a brick with a magic anti gravity device attached, if the anti gravity device fails it is a suspended brick and gravity will soon assert itself.

A real helicopter (or an auto-gyro) is best modeled as a rotating wing, as long as the blades rotate you can control the craft to greater or lesser extent. It still won't be pretty in a proper helicopter but at least you have a chance.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by pr_nik on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:59AM (#20623166)
Additionally, you need "collective pitch" control, i.e. the ability to angle the rotor blades for windmilling and then for hover flight right before touchdown. Multicopters just have fixed-pitch rotors and rely on differential torque/thrust for attitude control and ascend.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by jaclaz on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @04:49AM (#20623433)
>A quad copter is best modeled as a brick with a magic anti gravity device attached, if the anti gravity device fails it is a suspended brick and gravity will soon assert itself.

Very nice definition.

There isn't AFAIK such a neat distincion in English, in Italian the iron (the device you use for ironing, maybe flatiron?) has a specific name "ferro da stiro" so it is common to use it as a term of comparison for such a behaviour.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by repolfx on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:18AM (#20625349)
Is it possible to design a self-destruct sequence so powerful that the entire thing is fragmented to dust over a wide area?
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by polymatter on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:36AM (#20625522)
I'm sorry, did you just suggest we pack explosives in commercial cargo drones as a safety measure? Explosives enough to vaporise 10kg drone plus its cargo. Are we looking at mini nukes here?
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by repolfx on Thursday August 08, 2019 @02:06PM (#20646965)
I don't know, as you can tell I don't know much about explosives. But you wouldn't need to literally vaporise it, I guess, and I doubt it'd need a miniature nuke.

In my defence, a quick search shows this story:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/amazon-delivery-dron...

So apparently it's not a stupid suggestion and Amazon are thinking along the same lines.

I only ask because it seems making drones land safely is hard. I mean, a paracute with a whistle is a great idea until it drifts in front of a car moving at high speed, or lands on a deaf person or shorts out a high-voltage cable. They all have problems. If there was a way to convert the failed drone into widely dispersed very small objects, the harm may be much lower.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by jacquesm on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:28PM (#20627997)
I think the combination of being airborne, remotely controlled and high explosives might get you attention of a kind you would like to avoid.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by cnlevy on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:55AM (#20625680)
Sure, but it might explode near people
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by repolfx on Thursday August 08, 2019 @11:08AM (#20645242)
I didn't say it had to be explosive, but at any rate, you know anyone can buy fireworks right?
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by maaarghk on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:57AM (#20625191)
maybe you could have started a new comment thread since your post doesn't remotely answer the question you quoted
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by taneq on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:17AM (#20624849)
> Wow, that's shockingly low. The paper doesn't describe why --

It's because many drones, even "commercial" ones, are built using hobby parts with poor QC. If you use high end components then the reliability will be up by a two orders of magnitude, as will the price.

(Also as mentioned by others, multirotors and especially quadrotors have many single points of failure and so even with reliable parts the whole contraption isn't very reliable.)

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by sytelus on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:00PM (#20621360)
Commercial drones can push to 10^3 hrs but that's still far cry from aviation standards of 10^5 hrs. According to this nav system and fuel+actuators are two big failing components: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6165073/pdf/sen...
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by crazygringo on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:06PM (#20621390)
That article seems to be referring to winged UAV drones (e.g. Predator) not the quadcopter-type drones used for deliveries.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by bitxbitxbitcoin on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:42AM (#20623966)
Good catch. It is possible for quadcopter-type drones to come with four extra motors that sit opposite of the traditional four motors and props and face down with slightly different sized props and rotating the opposite way.

In the case of failure of a prop in this configuration (the most common failure in my own experience with quads and octos), it is possible to program the n-copter to automatically change to flying in 7 prop mode or 6 prop mode or 5 prop mode, and so on and so forth as a redundancy feature. This could help with a not insignificant amount of crashes but obviously comes with increased costs.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by TylerE on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:19PM (#20621488)
Airplanes get regular (and quite extensive) maintenance though.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by donquichotte on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:16AM (#20624118)
> do you have any idea what part(s) are failing so quickly? The rotors, the motors, the battery?

My bet is on the power electronic semiconductors, mostly MOSFETs, in the motor controllers. Life time of these components decreases exponentially with the temperature difference they see in the semiconductor junction, i.e. the difference between hot (current is flowing, heating the junction with a power of I^2 * R_ds_on) and cold.

To make this deltaT_junction small, you need to choose big components, but at the same time you want to save weight, which is fundamentally at odds with overdimensioning everything.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by mikepurvis on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:53AM (#20625660)
Those are solid state components, though, and they exist (or can) in the downwash of the rotor, so it really shouldn't be that hard to keep them cool.

I'd think the motor and rotor itself would be much more likely to be the problem.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by cr0sh on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:12PM (#20628483)
I don't know of any multi-rotor craft that incorporates the ESC (electronic speed controller) in such a way as to be cooled by the downwash of the props. Not saying there aren't any, but I haven't seen it.

Most hobbyist multirotors use smaller controllers (which are essentially a PWM'd set of mosfets) zip-tied or otherwise affixed to the arms of the machine, with short connections to the motors and to the controller/and power-supply distribution board on the body.

Consumer multi-rotor craft will generally have the ESCs integrated on a motherboard or daughterboard in the main body of the craft (cheaper to manufacture), well away from the prop wash and enclosed (not good for cooling).

I'm not sure what commercial (or large-scale) multi-rotor craft use, but it is probably similar to the others.

Again - I'm not saying it hasn't been done, or couldn't be done; in fact, it seems like a good idea. I can even envision how it could be integrated on the motor itself (board on the back with mosfets, with an extended shaft with fan for cooling the mosfets (inrunner motor), or with the fins of the mosfets in the wash of the prop, or something like that for an outrunner motor).

It wouldn't surprise me if such motors don't come on the market (or maybe they already exist - I haven't looked)...

Ok - well, apparently the idea isn't a new one:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1149319-brush...

...and it has been tried and sold to some success. So I imagine such motors are still available somewhere. TIL.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by pps43 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:11AM (#20625300)
A helicopter can autorotate when its single engine quits, or continue flying when one of its multiple engines quit. Quadrocopter requires all four motors to work to remain in the air. This is a reasonable tradeoff for light hobby drones, but not for heavier drones for commercial delivery.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by mikepurvis on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @10:49AM (#20625631)
This isn't quite true. Cheap drones may not have this capability, but controlled, safe landings of quadrotors with a single failed motor have been demonstrated, see this ETH Zurich video from 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek0FrCaogcs

Obviously there are still other single points of failure such as the battery or controller, but at this point there's no excuse for crash landing a commercial drone just because a single motor (or rotor) has failed.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by walrus01 on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:26PM (#20621540)
Arducopter flight controller user here:

There is a reason why pro grade filming setups carrying $40,000 to $150,000 cameras are all coaxial octocopters or flat octocopters. Even a hexacopter cannot 100% reliably recover from a single motor failure.

Personal opinion, any craft that is over 3 to 4kg and spends time over people needs to be an octo.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by sytelus on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:52PM (#20621669)
I've held the opinion that we shouldn't be using multirotors but VTOLs when it comes to aerial deliveries. The multirotors are extremely energy inefficient, have very low MTBF, short-range and very low payload cap. On the other hand designing safe reliable VTOL is hard but solvable problem when thrown enough resources because you can draw a lot from existing aviation tech. However, Amazon has gone through quadrotors to VTOL and then they switched back to multirotor again, surprisingly. Unfortunately, most of the delivery vehicles are being built by relatively small limited resources startup-like groups. While multirotors are very easy to build, they have an enormous number of problems. I think if there was a well-funded group of 500 or so engineers working over ~5 years, there is a decent chance we can have safe reliable commercial-grade VTOL for autonomous point-to-point deliveries that can be adopted as standard. Unfortunately, this is a big capex project.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by kortex on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:16PM (#20621798)
Google has been experimenting with tailsitters, which I think is a no-brainer.

Zipline is, imho, the real out of the box thinker. Catapault launch plus the snag line is Short takeoff, effectively-vertical landing, main downside is you need ground gear to land without damage. Main upside is weight savings for peak power (takeoff) is reduced, landing gear gone, and your engineering space is shrunk to solely the problem of steady state flight.

I foresee the paradigm of winged mothership for last-hundred-mile, plus n-rotor drones for air-to-land leg of delivery.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by walrus01 on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:47PM (#20621952)
Zipline's system is a much lower cost, light weight implementation of what InSitu (now a Boeing subsidiary since they were acquired) designed for the defense market, for their Scaneagle. They were by no means the first to launch or recover a fixed wing drone in that manner.

As you point out it provides a lot of advantages in not needing to carry the extra weight for a VTOL, no landing gear, extra energy boost on launch. It's very close to the optimal energy usage in watts for motor, per size of craft, that can be achieved right now.

The other advantage of using a single motor fixed wing craft is ability to use lithium ion batteries which are relatively higher Wh/kg density. These are not as capable of instantaneous high amps as lithium polymer are. The best commodity, commercially available lithium ion batteries are in the range of 210 to 248Wh/kg right now. The best lithium polymer batteries are about 178Wh/kg.

FPV hobbyist fliers who build fixed wing and flying-wing craft use lithium ion for longer range.

https://www.google.com/search?q=insitu+scaneagle&client=ubun...

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by wereHamster on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:35AM (#20624223)
Zipline only works if you have a single base where you launch from land at. If you need to land at the customers site then you need VTOL capability.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by joncrane on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:37AM (#20625017)
I think the idea is that the full-payload drone is launched via catapult, and the takeoff from the customer's site is without payload, allowing for lower power.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by jcims on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @01:43PM (#20627555)
Yeah I've been thinking same, possibly a UAV dirigible for the mothership. That would be cool.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by walrus01 on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:41PM (#20621927)
Due to the very low energy storage density in Wh/kg for li-ion and li-po type batteries, VTOLs are the inevitable design decision a lot of companies are arriving at. For a big filming octo, capability to stay in the air for 45, 60 or 90 minutes is not essential and it doesn't need to travel far.

If you look at the pilot projets for drone delivery in Canberra, it's all VTOLs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=canberra+drone+delivery&clie...

The instantaneous watts required for forward flight with wings at a reasonable speed are much lower than the watts required for the same weight of craft, same general dimensions, same speed, forward flight with four, six or eight rotors.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by kortex on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:07PM (#20621751)
Any insight as to why Matternet is using quads still? Just nearsightedness? Yeah, they might be a bit cheaper, but now they are grounded, that's never good for the bottom line.

Furthermore, safety critical systems are all about layers. Yeah redundant motors are good, parachute is nice, but what about passive measures?

Maybe drones should have stub wings which, in addition to lift boost, have deadman switches which cause one to spring 180° on power loss, forcing the hull to autorotate in the event the chute fails.

Ok, the gps dies, the motors fail, chute fails to deploy, and the wing ripped off, you are dropping at full speed. Well now the rapid descent causes a pressure differential (artificial eustacian tube, if you will) which trips some azide charge, inflating an airbag.

It's like they are putting in bare minimum of effort with the quad+parachute.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by walrus01 on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:43PM (#20621937)
I actually recognize the drone body that Matternet is using there, it's a monocoque molded carbon fiber + fiberglass body from a manufacturer in China, where it's sold as an agricultural spraying drone.

Rapid descent sensors don't necessarily need to be pressure based at all. While in controlled flight there is a limitation (as governed by flight controller and ESCs) for how rapidly a quad, hex or octo can descend. Accelerometer data can be used to trigger a parachute and/or airbag system. A multiply-redundant array of small accelerometers that can detect freefall is very tiny and light weight.

Most higher end flight controllers have double or triple accelerometers onboard.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by 4ntonius8lock on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:38PM (#20621601)
Thanks for contributing toward progress and not toward fear/restriction.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by walrus01 on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:47PM (#20621649)
There's valid technical reasons for having a coaxial octo within a total craft body+arm size radius of 1.5 meters as well. You can generate more thrust and carry more payload for the same disc loading area.

Four large motors and four 28" CF props produce less thrust than four arms, each arm with two motors stacked, and eight props.

Octos are not a conservative, redundant, fail tolerant design decision just for the sake of protecting expensive gear. Many of them still have 1+0 non redundant power systems.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by jcims on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:12PM (#20621075)
Quadrotor form factor seems unusual for something that clearly has reliability/safety as a high priority.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by asteli on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:35PM (#20621221)
I think multirotors have the capability to be made quite safe. The only moving parts are the rotors, and with higher rotor counts, graceful degradation of flight performance is possible in the case of a rotor-out.

Problem is that most of the components (batteries, motor controllers, flight controllers) are built by and for hobbyists. Motor burns a winding? ESC spontaneously lets the smoke out? Whatever, they're $15 bucks each. The field of "commercial grade cargo multirotor" is still in its infancy. The balance of safety and cost for the components hasn't been struck in the market. You either deal with random chinese components and control algorithms written by intrepid RC airplane nuts, buy very expensive industrial/aerospace grade components, or roll your own solution.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by bigiain on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:28PM (#20621553)
Hexes and octocopters are "safer" than quads - since they can (with appropriate controllers) cope with any one motor/controller out, and some combinations of multiple motors out. (Anyone flying expensive DSLR cameras uses these for that reason.)

There are some quad copter controllers that try to deal with single motor failures, but they're mostly experimental (at least on the hobby end to the space) since they need to be able to reverse a motor, which most motor controllers used in these applications are not build to do.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by asteli on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:39PM (#20621606)
I recall a quadcopter control mode that spins the entire craft quite rapidly, exchanging yaw control for altitude control.

Found a vid: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bsHryqnvyYA

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by bigiain on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @04:21AM (#20623273)
Without even clicking that I knew it was gonna be ETH Zurich... They do pure magic. Pretty much nobody _else's_ quadcopters can survive a motor failure... (But it'll come, presumably. Amazing software is cheaper than redundant hardware, after all...)
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by toxik on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:33AM (#20624532)
Not to detract from how cool this work is but the preconditions for this to work are quite far-reaching. It is based on bridging the reality gap by having that gap approach zero - by removing error sources from the real world rather than model and account for them. Same goes for other ASL work.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by mc32 on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:58PM (#20621355)
I don’t expect a service delivery company to use hobbyist components. That’d be s recipe for disaster. One would think they’d put something like this though its paces before testing it out in public. I’d expect they buy aerospace grade components where possible and build their own to spec where needed.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by bigiain on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:35PM (#20621584)
I fully expect most "service delivery companys" to buy their drones from the same Alibaba vendors that share bike ad scooter companies buy from...

Losing them, crashing them, having people steal them or throw them in a lake - those are things to include in your VC funded "operating costs" and to mitigate/offload the risks in your TOS...

(Small print: "The delivery customer shall be wholly and solely responsible for any damages and costs incurred by their delivery and any company equipment used in the completion of the customer's delivery, including but not limited to the drone crashing into a playground full of children." Just like Tesla's abrogation of responsibility when their "autopilot" software is driving the car they sold you...)

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by mc32 on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:45PM (#20621629)
Not sure how things work in Switzerland, but at least in the US I think these aircraft would be under the purview of the FAA who likely would require some rigor. Likely something similar in CH.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by Leherenn on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:53AM (#20624305)
The market is too young for this kind of process. Regulators around the world are smart enough to realise you can't expect drones to follow classic aeronautical design and safety processes right now, you would just stop dead the whole field.

So while they gently introduce such rules (mostly centered around see and avoid for now, also identification), the main way they use to ensure safety is restrict where and who can fly them.

You know they can't be trusted, so you don't fly them above sensitive areas. As processes mature, reliability increase and trust is gained, you will see drones expand the airspace in which they are allowed. It's already happening for BVLOS (beyond visual line of sight) flights which requires a waiver from the FAA in the US (with paperwork such as risk assessment, collision tests on mannequins and so on), as well as specific equipment/processes.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by pfundstein on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @03:22AM (#20622952)
These aircraft are in fact manufactured by a US company (Matternet).
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by Leherenn on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:41AM (#20624253)
There's no aerospace grade for most of the components. It's either custom made for the most critical/unique components, hobbyist parts (who else needs 4" propellers), or cots that are designed for other applications.

Pretty much no one besides DJI has the scale for custom made, except on a few select components. Drones are still in their infancy, those companies are still trying to see if they have a business model and improving/creating technologies. You can't expect mature processes from this environment.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by bayesian_horse on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:00AM (#20622564)
In a sense, most other aerial vehicle types are worse. Helicopters, with only one main rotor are incredibly complex machines requiring constant maintenance. The rotor blades are articulated to provide flight control. Quadcopters are a ton simpler because their rotors are "just" rotors, and flight control is achieved through differential thrust, not angling the blades. On the other hand, helicopters often seem to deal with engine failure better than quadcopters or even fixed wing aircraft.

Fixed wing drones have the big problem that they need to go fast to stay in the air. Which requires a lot more motion planning.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by jacquesm on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:15AM (#20622625)
Your typical helicopter is made to entirely different standards than your typical drone.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by bayesian_horse on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:29AM (#20622716)
Yes, of course. But toy helicopters have been around for a lot longer than quad-copters have been popular. And I've not seen a lot of people using single-rotor RC helicopters for filming and delivery (I'm sure there are some ...).

My point is that multicopters are a lot simpler mechanically. No articulation, no transmission, just propellers on an electrical motor, controlled by pure electronics with no mechanical components in the loop except the drive coils.

Arguably multicopters are easier to control automatically (with modern electronics), though that wouldn't be THAT big a factor today, I guess.

Also electrical engines can deal a lot better with variable load and RPM. Multicopters with combustion engines (driving the rotors directly, not through a generator) seem to be quite uncommon.

Still, if multicopters are supposed to be routinely used in the presence of people, they need similar standards of maintenance and failure control as would bigger aircraft, be they manned or unmanned...

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by jcims on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:08AM (#20624783)
You're not wrong, but even model helicopters can autorotate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxQ5kwqiPN4&t=135
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by kuzehanka on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @06:22AM (#20623886)
That figure doesn't sound convincing, and the linked paper seems to just make it up without any explanation or justification.

The limiting factor of a quad's ability to fly is the motor and unexpected failure of the battery. Higher end brushless motors have a life expectancy in the tens of thousands of hours. Battery failure is already mitigated in consumer drones by having independent packs each of which provides enough current to continue operation.

Quads do occasionally just fall out of the sky because a defective bearing ceases or a defective cell sags, but it's very rare. Most of the time they crash due to operator error.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by davinic on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @12:34PM (#20626766)
You've left out the critical component between the battery and the bldc motors: the motor controller. These deal with the most difficult thermal issues and fail frequently.

On a quad there a 4 motor controllers on board, and only one needs to fail, greatly increasing the odds of overall failure.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by kuzehanka on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @03:40AM (#20632687)
I've never heard of anyone having an ESC fail mid flight. Again, it might happen, but the mean lifespan of a healthy ESC is definitely >100hrs.

None of this is even really relevant. GP quoted a figure from a paper that pulls the figure out of thin air and doesn't justify it in any way. The figure can be disregarded. I'm just pointing out that the figure seems much lower than mtbf of any of the critical components of a quad.

Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by neals on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:43AM (#20624262)
That's some interesting statistics you claim, would love to see the source on that.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:25AM (#20624474)
Considering that mechanical failure is basically a rounding error compared to human error when it comes to causing crashes of every other vehicle and piece of machinery humans operate I'm inclined to believe the same is true for drones.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by empath75 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:43AM (#20624592)
People have a much lower tolerance for mechanical failure in vehicles that carry people. Anything that crashed at a higher rate from mechanical failure than human error would not be produced for very long.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by Shivetya on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:10AM (#20624389)
My only question is, why are there no blade guards in place? Not to protect the blades but to protect anyone near this drone?
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by joncrane on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:58AM (#20624701)
I imagine that it reduces efficiency for the fastest part of the blades to pass very close to a stationary ring, as opposed to letting the turbulence tumble off the ends of the blades unimpeded.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by dmix on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:44PM (#20621625)
Can’t this be mitigated with parachutes and other safety measures when certain descent speeds or other failures are detected? It could also broadcast an alarm during any descent to warn people.
Re:Swiss Post Suspends Drone Delivery Service After Second C... by sytelus on Monday August 05, 2019 @10:48PM (#20621653)
Perhaps you didn't read the article but that's exactly what they had. The drone would flash light, deploy chute and make big whistle sound if it detected a crash. The problem is that it still does count as a crash. In the second crash chute system, itself failed.