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Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by krferriter on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:16PM (#20423543)
Yeah I'm renting a house in central NC and May-September our power bill skyrockets from AC. The windows are not insulated at all and we have a lot of them. Even the floors, walls, and ceilings leak heat like crazy, you can feel it just putting your hand close to the wall or ceiling. We run AC to get it down to 76F and it's still crazy expensive and using a lot of unnecessary power. We need to encourage insulation, especially of windows. My parents had a lot of big windows too and recently have started upgrading them to insulated windows and it makes a huge difference. The US needs to heavily encourage these sorts of improvements to buildings, it's good for everyone.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by asdkhadsj on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:28PM (#20423633)
> The US needs to heavily encourage these sorts of improvements to buildings, it's good for everyone.

Is it though? I imagine your landlord doesn't think it's good for them. It's not bad for them, but why would they spend hundreds or thousands of dollars improving your apartments insulation when it costs them nothing to keep the poor thermal in place.

I too lived in rentals that had terrible thermal protection. It was awful to heat and cool. Yet, my landlords wouldn't have spent a dime to improve that.

Not sure what can be done here, but with seemingly more and more homes becoming rentals this perhaps needs a solution.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by Chirael on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:22PM (#20424140)
If two or three tenants in a row move out and cite sky high power costs due to poor insulation as the reason, the landlord will notice and do something about it. One tenant is a fluke, several all saying the same thing over a few years is a problem that will get dealt with. Nothing costs a landlord money like high turnover. But departing tenants DO need to communicate that as the issue, otherwise the landlord would never really know since s/he isn’t the one paying the bill.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by gregable on Saturday July 13, 2019 @02:23AM (#20426787)
Do tenants really decide like that? Moving is costly and insulation is hard to judge on a tour?
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by Dumblydorr on Saturday July 13, 2019 @10:10AM (#20428127)
In providence RI my friends and I rented a 3 BR 2nd floor of a duplex. The heating cost was insanity. The rent itself was 1350 per month and the oil heating in the winter cost us 3600, which is 100 per month added onto my 450 share for the entire year. I left that year, my roomies stayed and begged the landlord to switch, the oil heater was wicked old and inefficient. He said no, he didn't care. They moved due to that. So yes, it did cost him, probly the months worth of rent that he lost due to the realtors finders fee.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by cosmodisk on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:33PM (#20424239)
I live in London nowadays. When brosing rental properties,the first thing I check in photos is whether it has normal radiators ( gas heating). If I see electric ones, I move on to the next property.Also rent is much cheaper on these...
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by tonyedgecombe on Saturday July 13, 2019 @05:06AM (#20427204)
I'd imagine that thins out your choices quite quickly, in my area it seems landlords love storage heaters.

I think some of the Scandinavian countries have banned these heaters.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by duderific on Friday July 12, 2019 @06:42PM (#20425193)
They can potentially raise the rent (for the next renter if there's rent control) by advertising "modern double pane windows" which offer sound insulation from outside noise, in addition to the thermal benefits.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by krferriter on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @09:51PM (#20465963)
They definitely could raise rents if offering thermal and noise insulated living environment. The quality of living goes up drastically with that, so it would make sense.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by namibj on Saturday July 13, 2019 @08:35AM (#20427745)
And here we upgrade to tripe pane. Get european/german windows, or something like them. They are worth the money.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by krferriter on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @09:48PM (#20465946)
In my particular case I'm renting a house, so it is probably more directly important to the landlord to insulate the house than if it were a large apartment building. The resale value for the house goes up steeply with well-insulated windows. Also the quality of life inside the house improves with better insulation and can therefore potentially draw a slightly higher rent. Also the landlord will have to replace the AC and heating unit less frequently, and those things are expensive.

However there are also indirect benefits to improving insulation generally. First of all there is less fossil fuel pollution since much of the US is still mostly on fossil fuel power, so reducing electrical demand has a positive impact on air quality and atmospheric carbon dioxide. Also a lower load on the local power grid reduces operating costs and reduces wear on grid equipment, reducing frequency of part replacements. Also AC units tend to be pretty loud since they're running fairly large compressors, and themselves generate heat outside the house, and though these factors may be small they do contribute to both noise and heat pollution.

I think a subsidy for energy efficiencyizing buildings in various ways should be provided, I know they have been in limited ways before. Regulating new construction to ensure a base level of heat exchange resistance would be another way.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by sagarm on Saturday July 13, 2019 @01:51AM (#20426694)
Require landlords to pay for heat? That would align incentives somewhat, though then the tenant has no incentive to be efficient.

A 50/50 split might work, since landlord is responsible for energy efficiency of the home and the tenant is responsible for setting the thermostat sanely?

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by RhodesianHunter on Saturday July 13, 2019 @09:51AM (#20428051)
1. Move into home like this

2. Set up Bitcoin mining rig

3. Profit, since you only have to pay half of the utility bill

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by krferriter on Wednesday July 17, 2019 @09:51PM (#20465958)
On my university campus, the university covers electricity, but will flag you and inspect your room for banned equipment if you use too much. They do the same for internet usage. You're explicitly banned from running server racks, or microwaves or refridgerators other than the ones they provide in the rooms which have a particular wattage. A landlord could do the same.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by Dumblydorr on Saturday July 13, 2019 @10:12AM (#20428135)
4. Lose profits when landlord charges you for excessive use
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by mixmastamyk on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:32PM (#20423673)
They are upgrading the windows in this neighborhood. First they kick you out, do the work, then charge the next tenant (rent + 1000).
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by the8472 on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:37PM (#20423719)
> Not sure what can be done here

Tax based on efficiency. Tie permits for building renovation to insulation upgrades.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by lrem on Saturday July 13, 2019 @08:37AM (#20427750)
All rental search sites I've used in my life have energy bill estimation right there. Where I live now, the law requires including that in the advertised price.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by jstsch on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:24PM (#20423614)
I was wondering about this the other day. In NL, insulation has been part of the building code for ages. With stronger requirements every decade or so. Insulated windows have been required since the 80ies for new houses. Now it’s triple pane krypton glass. Is this not the case for the USA.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by opencl on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:02PM (#20423970)
The US has insulation requirements, it varies a lot state to state but new housing generally has at least decent-ish insulation. The main issue is that there is a lot of very old housing stock in the US. As of 2015 the median house was 37 years old and 40% were over 45 years old. In the area I live the vast majority of the houses were built in the 40s or 50s, though most people have done some amount of insulation retrofitting.

http://eyeonhousing.org/2015/08/the-aging-housing-stock-2/

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by closeparen on Friday July 12, 2019 @10:27PM (#20426129)
Prewar houses in cold climates are insulated just fine. It seems a lot of 1980s and 1990s structures in San Francisco basically cardboard boxes, because with mild weather you get away with it.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by anonuser123456 on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:31PM (#20423662)
You are probably conflating window insulation with window air leaks. The best windows generally available are R-5 at best on initial installation and degrade over time as The argon leaks. They are also extremely expensive. Not a very good investment.

But most energy losses in older buildings are from leaking air not thermal conductance. So upgrading to R-1 but sealed and we'll installed Windows can do a lot without having to spend 50k.

Also, you can use thermal shutters that have MUCH higher R-value than even top of the line windows.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by gdubs on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:44PM (#20423779)
We have an old house and the energy auditor was selling us hard on attic air sealing and insulation. Claim was that windows weren’t gonna make as big of an impact given the stack effect. (They’re also historic “wavy glass” windows, and we’d like to keep them.)

Do you think attic air sealing, or more effective attic insulation would have a big impact? It does feel like the roof turns into a radiant heater in the summer.

(The only energy auditor available in the area is also in the business of providing the insulation, which is why I’m skeptical.)

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by sjg007 on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:41PM (#20424311)
It'll help. Ask for some customer references, maybe someone with a similar house. But it could also cause other problems. Older houses are naturally leaky and that helps keep them manage mold/mildew and radon. Your water heater and furnace could also backdraft. So that's something to consider. Modern houses are basically sealed inside a plastic bag so you need active mechanical ventilation to keep things in order.

If you have a really old house make sure you don't have vermiculite insulation which might make things way more expensive cause it likely has asbestos in it. Apart from that you can also DIY it but it's messy. Your state may offer incentives for doing it too.

https://www.energystar.gov/campaign/seal_insulate/attic_air_...

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by newnewpdro on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:15PM (#20424079)
I'm not an expert but based on my personal research adding a ridge vent to the roof and getting a convection current drawing fresh air from the soffits through the attic and out the ridge supposedly makes a big difference. When you've got it all sealed up you've got a solar oven.

You'll still want insulation on the floor of the attic space, and seal off the living space from the attic.

From what I gather the main complication is keeping critters out while opening your attic to a substantial flow of fresh air. A pile of rockwool insulation sounds like a hell of a home for many small mammals, and bees can get past all but the finest of screen meshes. It seems feasible to diligently install screens on all the vents but it'll be a maintenance burden to keep them intact as the years go by.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by mgbmtl on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:49PM (#20423832)
I don't know much about this, but anecdotal info: my apartment (comparable to a 1-floor bungalow with lots of windows) has argon-filled windows, and it cost me around USD$1600 for the window themselves (I didn't change the frames, but my old windows were cheap/scrap).

I heat to 18oC in winter (Montreal) and AC to 24oC in summer. My electricity bill averages USD$40 per month. The windows made a nice difference, and still seem efficient after 10 years.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by amluto on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:42PM (#20423761)
If the window is in the sun, your major problem is unlikely to be window insulation. It’s solar heat gain. Sunlight carries a lot of power — about 1 kW per square meter. If your window lets all of that power in, then your AC needs to consume a couple hundred watts to send it back out again. What you need are windows with low solar heat gain coefficients (SHGC), which is mostly independent of insulation. Or you can get window treatments that are shiny on the side facing the window.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by newnewpdro on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:10PM (#20424037)
> What you need are windows with low solar heat gain coefficients (SHGC), which is mostly independent of insulation. Or you can get window treatments that are shiny on the side facing the window.

In the desert by me people use substantial awnings on the exterior putting the windows in shade. It's a lot cheaper than fancy window treatments and in my experience far more effective. Provides more space to mount solar panels too.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by driverdan on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:59PM (#20424434)
Tint is cheap and requires little to no maintenance. I can't see how awnings would cost less. That said, awnings are probably more efficient.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by NickNameNick on Friday July 12, 2019 @07:40PM (#20425492)
The problem with window tint is that it's 'on' all the time.

A well designed awning lets in more light in winter, giving you solar gain when you want it, but provides extra shade in summer.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by JustSomeNobody on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:26PM (#20424175)
I have blackout curtains in my office covering two south facing windows (in FL). They block a good bit of heat, but it still gets warm. I mostly just wear shorts and deal with it as I really don't want to run the AC down too low (keep it at 80 while I'm home alone; 76 when the family gets home).
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by mattferderer on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:12PM (#20424059)
About a decade ago the US tax code gave rebates for improving homes to be more energy efficient. I think this started in Bush & went through Obama.

I know a lot of people who upgraded windows & insulation.

Many also did geothermal heating. I've heard from some trades people a lot of negatives about this one though.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by st1ck on Sunday July 14, 2019 @05:35AM (#20432586)
For me personally, 76°F (24.4°C) is kinda cold. I'd turn it up to 86°F (30°C) and make use of fans (or just use only fans, no AC). Probably, better to transition slowly, like 1° a day. Some people, of course, are less tolerant to heat, but I don't think I'm far from average. Just make sure you are dressed as light (or scanty) as possible.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by pstrateman on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:32PM (#20423667)
Why would the landlord spend money on insulation to save you money on your electric bill?

There's the problem.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by oblio on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:44PM (#20423787)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Performance_Certifica...

The article says UK but it's actually EU.

As with most things, make it a legal requirement.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by akie on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:45PM (#20423794)
The government should enforce energy efficient building standards and tax those who don’t comply.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by vinceguidry on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:07PM (#20424012)
New building standards don't affect existing buildings. And they're not optional, so the tax isn't an option for non-compliance.

Forcing existing landlords to retrofit to new building standards isn't even done for safety purposes, so it certainly isn't going to happen for energy efficiency.

And calling for this to now be a thing, well, I can't think of a better way to get entrenched interests to suddenly lobby hard against every single new building reg.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by dragonwriter on Sunday July 14, 2019 @06:04AM (#20432661)
> New building standards don't affect existing buildings.

No, but habitability standards do (or, technically, in general affect the legal ability to charge rent for units in existing buildings.) So, user those of your concern is recalcitrant landlords.

> Forcing existing landlords to retrofit to new building standards isn't even done for safety purposes

Yes, this is done (not always, but it does happen), through habitability standards beifn updated along with building standards (or referencing them.)

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by vinceguidry on Monday July 15, 2019 @09:10AM (#20440412)
I just went and looked at habitability standards, there's no way to get energy efficiency out of that mechanism, at best you could make landlords install ceiling fans.

And the only example I can think of for the latter was for asbestos. If being as horrible as asbestos is the bar you have to clear, regulation isn't a viable option and we're stuck with market solutions.

Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by vgetr on Friday July 12, 2019 @05:32PM (#20424706)
They could, but then the costs will just be passed down to the tenants (i.e. increased rent).
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by Dylan16807 on Friday July 12, 2019 @08:46PM (#20425801)
Even with the cost of insulation upgrades added to the rent, that's still cheaper total.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by antepodius on Saturday July 13, 2019 @11:52PM (#20431542)
Depends on how much the costs of insulation upgrades are blown out of proportion by being mandated.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by Dylan16807 on Sunday July 14, 2019 @02:16PM (#20434891)
For something that has to be done to most houses, I would expect a pretty large and competitive market.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by cosmodisk on Friday July 12, 2019 @04:29PM (#20424201)
I come from a country where climate is very similar to what Chicago has,so to read that people use AC for heating is quite fascinating! I agree that houses shouldn't be built like in "The Three Little Pigs"...
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by st1ck on Sunday July 14, 2019 @05:43AM (#20432609)
AC (and heat pumps in general) is great for heating, it can be way more power efficient than anything else. I mean, in theory, its efficiency can be way higher than 100%. But that's only when it's not too cold outside (I guess, at least above zero). You can consider using it in spring & autumn periods.
Re:Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil ... by dmix on Friday July 12, 2019 @03:56PM (#20423906)
I have the opposite problem living really high up in a condo. The heat from units below us travel upwards and in the summer I can open the door and get free cooling effect.