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Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by dx87 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:10PM (#20219369)
I'm suprised that he got 9 years in prison and was convicted of 2nd degree murder for this. What he was doing was definitely strange and ended up causing someone's death, but I haven't seen anyone from Tesla or Uber going to jail when people died because they're beta testing autonomous cars on public roads. The double standards are crazy.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by jessaustin on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:16PM (#20219403)
He's a weird guy, which means certain jurors will be biased against him. He's also an asshole, which also means certain jurors will be biased against him. Also he killed someone, even if out of negligence rather than spite. This doesn't seem like a giant miscarriage of justice.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by debt on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @11:39PM (#20220622)
“He's a weird guy”

He was building a series of tunnels beneath a bomb shelter to protect himself from an impending nuclear war with North Korea.

He’s not weird, he’s crazy.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by jessaustin on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:06AM (#20220940)
If I had enough money I would definitely be building weird shit which could include tunnels. I already like caves. I don't particularly care about DPRK, but I'm sure normals would find something wanting in my motivations.

The problem is not that he built some tunnels. The problem is that he lethally endangered his employee. Rich people make tasteless decisions all the time (for proof, drive through any tony suburb). It is important that their tastelessness not be negligent.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by mlevental on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @08:21PM (#20219786)
he didn't testify
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by jessaustin on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @08:50PM (#20219931)
OK, if they didn't hear him talk they might not have picked up the "asshole" vibe, although they might have made some assumptions in that vein about any BTC millionaire. Any testimony about his actions or public statements would have transmitted the "weird" vibe loud and clear.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by mars4rp on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:40PM (#20219562)
Let's put some corporate officer in trial and see how jurors react to it! but we never do that!
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by rwmj on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:55PM (#20219640)
Corporate officers of companies go on trial all the time. In the UK it even happens for manslaughter - you can be held responsible if someone working for you dies if you didn't take the right precautions.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by tedivm on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:16PM (#20219408)
If comma.ai had killed someone while illegally testing their self driving cars I would expect someone to go to jail. If Tesla and Uber are following the laws regarding testing then they probably wouldn't be held liable.

I do think there's a huge double standard where companies get treated better than individuals, but I also think that this guy ignored enough regulations regarding construction that he should definitely be held liable for this death.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by ghaff on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @08:04PM (#20219696)
Well, you can't put corporations in jail though you can most certainly fine them. Passing through criminal liabilities can circumvent one of the purposes of corporations (though those should properly apply in extreme cases).

I expect that a lot of people here would prefer not to be personally liable because some bug they were responsible for caused a significant financial loss much less an injury even though they worked for a company.

If you are an individual, you should probably set up a corporate structure and take out insurance.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by tedivm on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @09:34PM (#20220136)
You're confusing two very different issues- civil and criminal liability. Corporations protect their shareholders and officers from a variety of civil liability claims, as the corporation itself takes on that responsibility. Criminal liability does not get shielded by a corporation.

Your example about a software bug is a great one- that would clearly be a civil issue in most cases, but in the case that the law was broken in the process (say, a car company explicitly programs their vehicles to have lower emissions during testing than they do in real world scenarios) then you should expect some jailtime[1].

So going back to my example- if people follow the law but kill someone during testing (such as with Uber) then they probably shouldn't be held criminally liable, but if they are breaking the law (like comma.ai did) and kill someone as a result I would be shocked if they weren't held criminally liable.

1. https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16743308/volkswagen-olive...

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by pandapower2 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @09:00PM (#20219991)
>urinating and defecating into a bucket Beckwitt lowered down to him.

Does that mean that he was unable to get out of the tunnel by himself? If the poor guy was trapped in a hole with no way out then you could argue that this goes beyond being a simple accident.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by jccalhoun on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @09:25PM (#20220111)
I listened to the Dark net diaries episode mentioned in the thread and according to it, the guy basically lived down there for days at a time.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by teh_infallible on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @09:16PM (#20220076)
Yeah, this is where the story took a turn for me as well.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by sjg007 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @10:20PM (#20220304)
Did you even read the article? If you want to build secret tunnels under your house, employ a licensed contractor and several engineers. Have them sign NDAs even.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by dfeojm-zlib on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @12:36AM (#20220829)
Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by WilliamEdward on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:04AM (#20220930)
I'll protest this guideline. People need to be called out more on not reading articles, it happens way too often here. I'm guilty of it too.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by millzlane on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @01:40AM (#20221071)
I think calling people out would be against the ethos of the site. The first guideline for comments is Be kind. And not snarky. Sure some people may need it but I don't think it contributes anything good to the community. Some discussions could be about or related to the submission's title and not the actual article.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @10:29PM (#20220340)
I know you mean well but that attitude is basically equivalent to "be rich enough to pay other people to have the liability or don't bother" in practice.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by jessaustin on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @10:58PM (#20220464)
This is the only way this can work. If you want to build and occupy your own construction, that's great. May you only cut the corners that won't result in your own painful death. If you want to pay others to labor under your direction, you have to get that inspected.

I say this as someone who does a great deal of unprofessional carpentry, electrical work, mechanical repair, excavation, plumbing, etc. for myself and for family members. I would never have gone willingly into that hole. I certainly would never have asked anyone else to do so. No unexploited worker would have done this work.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by dfeojm-zlib on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @12:39AM (#20220840)
Reminds me of the underground structures Colin Furze has conjured up:

- an underground multi-level beach hut: https://youtu.be/AojTrc_UMaM

- apocalypse bunker under his shed: https://youtu.be/KO25JYAaJC0

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @06:17AM (#20222122)
There's a hell of a lot of space between "yeah, that hole is fked but you do you" and "hire someone or GTFO" which is what the comment I initially replied to is advocating for.

Property owners should be able to do their own work on their own property or act as their own general contractors. Disallowing that is right up there with gated communities that tell you exactly how tall your grass should be but that's the only way to prevent this kind of thing. I don't think everone's (already highly limited) right do what they want on their own property should be further curtailed because of one bad actor.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by jessaustin on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @10:27AM (#20223646)
I had a different reading of parent. It doesn't mean Beckwitt had to hire someone; after all Beckwitt already had decided to hire without any input from us. It means that if you do hire someone for hazardous technical work, hire someone capable of doing that hazardous technical work (which would include the judgment to walk away from unsafe jobs), not some poor clueless guy you can bully.

Yes that would have been too expensive for Beckwitt, and he would have never been able to get permits for it. That would have been society functioning correctly.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by sjg007 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @10:58PM (#20220453)
Umm.. how about we start with, get a permit and adhere to building code and the law.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by dllthomas on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @10:37PM (#20220378)
But... people with professional training around managing exactly that kind of liability, at least in theory.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by King-Aaron on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @10:29PM (#20220336)
Say what you will about Musk, but I haven't heard reports of him installing toilet-buckets in their factories yet and lowering them down to employees with ropes.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by rchaud on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @09:49AM (#20223298)
Probably because they use mandatory arbitration.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by codezero on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:40PM (#20219561)
He was employing this person, which I think entitles the person to some protections with respect to the work being done.

The particular malice here, I believe, was that he was texted about an emergency, and did not respond in a timely manner.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by drugme on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:26PM (#20219480)
I haven't seen anyone from Tesla or Uber going to jail when people died because they're beta testing autonomous cars on public roads.

As cold and cynical it is, what the self-driving car "pioneers" are doing -- it's not nearly as reckless (and flat-out clueless) as what this guy did.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:55PM (#20219647)
It is far more reckless to expose everyone in the public to your murder machines than one hapless contractor.

We don't allow people to drive without seatbelts because of the risk of them losing control and causing avoidable fatalities but half-baked autonomous machines vaguely guessing about what might be in front of them are perfectly ok?

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @08:48PM (#20219920)
Do Teslas on autopilot kill more people than regular cars? Murder machines seems a bit hyperbole, no?

Disclaimer: Written from my Model S at a Supercharger, having driven over 10k miles on autopilot/navigate on autopilot in the last 6 months

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by jasonmp85 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @08:54PM (#20219951)
Murder machines describes all cars, not just your precious Tesla.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by gbear605 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @09:14PM (#20220062)
Then why are you only railing against some of them?
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by bobsil1 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @10:17PM (#20220285)
>beta testing autonomous cars on public roads

Auto-steer is just one step above radar cruise control, which is also semi-autonomous and hugely buggy. Shipping cars come with radar cruise which suddenly turns off below 25 mph, presumably because radar processing is imprecise with position. No one is crusading to ban it.

Furthermore, using a massive training set comparing against human interventions is precisely how you get up the safety curve given the current tech approach, which will never suffice for full autonomy sans humans.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by irjustin on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @11:03PM (#20220480)
The list of differences between the given situations of Tesla/Uber vs Beckwitt is huge.

To simply all those considerations down to "double standards is crazy" literally puts them on the same plane of judgable circumstances.

You have something against the pursuit for automotive driving which is understandable/admirable, but to do so like this is cheapening both sides.

Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by jaimex2 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @10:20PM (#20220303)
Tesla driving assistance features work as described. The only thing crazy here is your obsession with that company.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by paulcole on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:28PM (#20219500)
Weird rich guys go to jail. Really weird really rich guys pay fines.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by wil421 on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:35PM (#20219536)
Robert Durst comes to mind. The Jinx on HBO is a great miniseries about him.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by aiyodev on Tuesday June 18, 2019 @07:33PM (#20219528)
He was just a millionaire. Musk is a billionaire. The first letter in those words makes all the difference.
Re:Millionaire hacker gets 9 years in death of man building ... by qtplatypus on Wednesday June 19, 2019 @12:01AM (#20220700)
The thing I see is that he wasn't really doing anything strange. Building structures and digging tunnels that humanity has been doing for a very long time. There exists laws, regulations and engineering knowledge developed over thousands of years to ensure that these activities are safe.

In order for this to happen he had ignore this body of safe practice knowledge that has been built up. Safety regulations are written in blood and to ensure that more blood isn't spilt unsafe practices that result in death have to be punished.

I don't think that there is an equivalent with the autonomous cars issue. It is a young field and we still don't know what the acceptable practices are in it.