> That said, I'm glad Tesla was good enough to "certify" their changes.

So, when you buy a Tesla, do you actually own the car? Is there any legal precedence if they brick your car if they don't like what you're doing to/with it? Or do you sign this away by agreeing to Tesla's EULA?

You own the car (the hardware), and lease the software. The fact that the hardware is incapable of running witoutu the software (which is constantly phoning home to Tesla) is where you run into problems.

Tesla historically doesn't want bad press due to accidents caused by "bad physical changes", and so carefully control it. To get a Tesla back up and running once it's been "salvaged" has historically required a full inspection by a Tesla approved shop.

The thing that really grinds my gears is that they sell cars in certain specs which have the hardware for something, but you can't use it without paying extra. Like....you can buy one which physically does have heated seats, but you can't use them unless you pay for the option. I just wonder if wiring in a physical switch to turn on the heating is considered piracy?

Try buying an oscilloscope - the difference between a $3,000 scope and an $8,000 scope is often just a few software toggles.

It's annoying if your hardware has features that you can't access, but it's more annoying if you don't have hardware at all because you can't afford the entry-level model. Disabling features allows a manufacturer to offer a broad range of products at a broad range of prices without sacrificing economies of scale, especially when there are large NRE costs to recoup.

This strategy can lower costs for the manufacturer because there are fewer variants of the product to make. I support this in the hope that cost savings are passed on to consumers.

And I don't support this at all. These cars cost an absolute fortune(Model 3 is worth like 4 years of average salary where I'm from) and the thought that it could be delivered with some hardware that isn't functional purely because you haven't paid extra for the switch is mindboggling.

You could make the same argument about houses - imagine how much cheaper it would be if every house was built out of prefabricates, but you just had to pay extra to get the additional rooms! What arrives from the house factory has 2 bathrooms, but one is sealed shut unless you pay the fee! But that's all fine, as long as the customer can save some money?

We can already see what happens with this approach taken to the extreme - look at BMW and CarPlay. Instead of selling it as an add-on from factory for say $300, you can pay yearly to have it - about $50. And BMW says "this is great, it's saving the customers money! Average car owner has the car for 3-4 years, so they will pay less in the yearly subscription than they would have done in a one-off fee! Isn't that great for everyone?". That's nuts. Absolutely positively nuts. To extend that to heated seats - I can easily imagine some company making those things available as a pay-pass, where you pay say $0.99 to have the seats available for a day. Again, someone will say "that's fantastic! It's cheaper than paying for those seats as an option from factory, if you don't need them you don't actually pay anything!". It's absolute madness and we're encouraging this.

Although it's true that cars switch owners, cars usually stay on the road for 10-15 years so consumers with the annual fee will pay out more in the long run.

After working with Toyota in their multimedia and head unit design facility, I can see why car companies would switch from a set price of $300 to a yearly fee. It used to be that you just included a FM radio and a CD player and the driver was good to go. Now, these head units need updates every month. These updates mostly include compatibility with the latest IOS/Android, latest phone hardware, newer versions of Pandora/Spotify/iHeartRadio because people wanted to "thumbs up" their songs, newer versions of the HU OS because these new music app versions broke the old OS, newer maps and less embarrassingly-bad voice recognition. Behind these map updates, there's some tester with an H1B Visa getting paid a salary to drive around in a Sienna to take photos of discrepancies between the map and the actual road. Once you see this, it's easy to understand the switch to an annual fee. However, the largest cost comes from trying to connect to the latest phones to use their 3G/4G.

If Tesla wasn't hemorrhaging out money, I'd also wish Tesla had a cheaper car. But Tesla unsustainably lost $702 million last quarter and they need to make enough of a profit to pay back all of their debt and invest in building our future; otherwise they'll go bankrupt. The list of successful car company startups is short. As of 2016, the number of American car companies that haven't gone bankrupt is a grand total of two: Ford and Tesla. Starting a car company is idiotic and an electric car company is idiocy squared. Tesla's end goal is to make an affordable sports car, just as the Ford Model T was an affordable car for the masses that brought Ford from 9% market share to 61% market share. They just can't bring the costs down yet while they are hemorrhaging so much money.

Further reading: 1) https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-j... 2) https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux

> I just wonder if wiring in a physical switch to turn on the heating is considered piracy?

It's not piracy, but Tesla can (hypothetically) decide to prevent your car from turning on if they find out what you're doing.

On the surface I think it really pricks you but it would be like buying an iPhone and wondering why you have to pay for a song subscription when the phone has the hardware to play them.

IMHO this falls into two buckets for Tesla that both align with the vision:

a) You pay a one time software cost then benefit from cloud updates for the lifetime of the car. Those aren't free for Tesla to do, on any level. Would it be nice if you could opt out? Maybe but this isn't about _you_. It's about driving a technological change which you may benefit from. Buying a specially built car without those would likely be _more_ expensive than just offering one with the features switched off. So if it pleases you to pay 10k USD (made up number) _more_ for a car that you can never upgrade just so you aren't offended by software you can't use then....sure?

b) In terms of their mission in benefits them to operate in this way. It's a quiet spur to other manufactures who aside from Nissan don't seem to quite get. Tesla has shown that you can build a $35K USD car that competes with everything and cast a lower cost of ownership over 5 years than a Prius. I remember early discussions coming out of VW that convinced them to go all in. Quite simply that said, wait - if the base Model 3 has a theoretical cost of 35k and that some non-trivial percentage of that is autonomous hardware, redundant and constant cellular communication, an over top the drive train to handle a 3.5 second 0-60 launch, and a bunch of tech goodies then we can make a 20k car that's mechanically just as good with all the bells and whistles of a modern sedan...just wont't be a futuristic space car.

This is more common than you think. The CPU in your computer might have more good cores than you are allowed to use for example. You paid for 4 cores? You get 4 cores, but your chip might actually have 8 good cores, just locked because you didn't pay more.

My understanding is they test all the CPUs and differentiate them by the test results - you might have four of eight cores sitting there unused that are fine most of the time but have some weird edge case, so they disable the four for QC purposes and sell it as a lower end processor. It's not quite the same as locking them down just to sell them as a lower end unit, they'd rather it worked perfectly and sell it at the higher end.

Unless you're talking about Intel's "upgradeable" processors [1] which you could pay more to unlock performance (but that was unlocking more L1 cache, not cores AFAIK)

[1] https://www.extremetech.com/computing/83896-intel-offering-c...

Sort of. They definitely perform this sort of binning, but the demand of the parts in the market and the success rates are things they have to estimate beforehand.

If they'd run out of the higher-end binned parts, they have sold out. But if they run out of the lower-end binned parts, they just relabel the higher-end parts and keep selling both lines.

Yield also isn't constant, so odds are the number of parts binned higher goes up over time as well.

They eventually figure out their yield issues. Do they then abandon the low-end market? Of course not.

I came across backup appliances recently that work on this principal. They literally have TBs of unused disk space in the box in my datacenter, but require an additional license to activate. It makes me very angry!

Why does it make you angry? The price of the appliance would likely be the same if that spare capacity was not pre-installed, and the cost of an upgrade would likely not change if hardware was delivered when the upgrade was purchased instead of being pre-installed.

They have calculated that enough customers will upgrade to pay for the hardware installed in the customer appliances that don't.

What's wrong with that? You don't have to wait for the hardware if you buy the upgrade.

It's a false scarcity that's annoying to the customer. Unlocking the extra capacity costs the vendor nothing. The consumer has paid enough money to have access to that storage without hurting the vendor, but the vendor refuses to grant access to that storage capacity.

If I had purchased such a product it would leave a sour taste in my mouth. The next time I needed such a piece of equipment I would try to find an alternative source.

Here's an analogy. If I'd purchased a box lunch of a juice box, sandwich and chips, but surprisingly they also included a cookie that is in a special package which will only unlock if I pay another $1 I would be upset. Of course, I could just throw the cookie away, package and all. I may not want the cookie anyway. But that's so wasteful! The vendor can afford to include the cookie at the price I already paid, but is solely using that cookie as a way to extract more money from me. It's wasteful.

What if the alternative is to not offer the cheaper product at all. Would that be preferable?

It does seem like a weird system.

>What if the alternative is to not offer the cheaper product at all.

The alternative that's been around for centuries is called "having a sale".

Say, you make 1000 units of something. Each unit costs X to make. You need to make Y profit per unit to sustain your business.

The bad news is, not everyone wants to pay X+Y. The good news: some are willing to pay more. The supply-demand curve thing.

So what you can do is: sell 500 units at X+2Y. Then have limited-time sales throughout <time period> at X+0.1Y.

This way, you never lose money on a sale, and you make the money you wanted to make. The customers that want your product here and now* pay for that premium. The customers that need your product will pay up as well, as sales aren't a guaranteed thing. And the rest will wait.

With smart hardware, someone had a genius idea: have the same breakdown in prices, but also cripple the products you sell at a lower price. Make your money faster by selling at both price points simultaneously.

Nothing* wrong with trying to do that (from the seller's side).

Nothing wrong with being disgusted with the wasteful practice it and calling it out (from the customer's side).

* aside from the waste aspect, repair aspect, customer hostility, artificially high margins probably being result of a monopoly/lock-in/supplier scarcity, and a plethora of other things.

The vendor is not only requiring you to pay for the physical goods you already have, but your payment is subsidizing the waste of the other consumers not purchasing the option. I pay for mine, and I pay for their unused resources. Most artificial tiering in unethical.

I think a more apt analogy would be those hand trucks that come on U-Hauls, where it's already physically on the truck, but just sealed up unless you pay a little extra.

So if you don't buy the option it's not destroyed forever, but can be utilized by future users once you move on. This allows them to provide customers with instant access to extra value by charging them enough to support putting a sealed hand truck on every U-Haul, or extra terabytes in every account.

It's probably a matter of time before someone starts jailbreaking teslas, turning off the phoning home, turning on heated seats, etc.

already been done, RichRebuilds talks about it on the show he did with Joe Rogan and he's talked about it on videos as well.

There's a way to disconnect your tesla, but nobody does it. (I believe they remove or disable the cellular sim)

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth that you can pay so much for an object and you essentially don't truly own it and can't do whatever you want with it without it phoning home and asking permission from its true owners who can capriciously brick your device for any reason they want.

Based off their actions in the past, Tesla will do as much as they legally can to avoid bad press due to accidents in a Tesla. And if you are in a publicly covered accident, you can be sure that data will be used against you in the court of public opinion (see "he took his hands off the wheel prior to the accident" comment from Tesla about the gore-impact fatality).

That is the PR reason.

The real reason is aftermarket changes/repairs/services.

Tesla wants 100% of that business, reminds me of Apple.

They both have the same schtick - create a walled garden then restrict access.

It results in predictable outcomes:

* products that are beautiful and in some ways without peer

* key parts/issues are only addressable through their service channel

* exclusivity of membership for better/worse.

* higher profit margins and healthy overall profit despite lower market share

They can have more than one business reason. And the PR side of things has been critical of late.

Your Apple will still turn on if you create a Franken-book (as long as you can get drivers).

They won’t sell you spare parts, but if you find some, you’re ok. This does prop up resale values to some degree (for parts donors).

Although Apple is going down the Tesla road slowly (the fingerprint reader is married to the logic board on newer models).

I'm glad for the sake of the future of electric vehicles that Tesla is retaining so much control, but as a customer/user I'd rather wait until more open options can come down the path Tesla's blazing.

Read about new farming equipment. In US there are hackers who are hacking farming equipment, so farmers can do their own repairs. This is basically where car manufacturers will eventually try to go and it is kinda what Tesla does.

Just going to hop in and give a bit more information regarding this situation. I assume you're referring to John Deere and their attempts to stop anyone accessing the software on their machinery.

The situation is complicated because John Deere leases out a lot of their equipment in a financial lease (they do operating leases too but they're not affected by this). In this sort of lease the ownership is technically with the lessee. So I can see the reason John Deere wants to stop people who legally own their tractor from tampering with software. It's still a lease and at the end of it John Deere might get back a working tractor (depending on the life of the lease), so they don't want it to have been used in any way that could damage it. It's a legal protection and I don't think it's as malicious as every journalist and commenter tries to say it is. If you look into their financials you'll see they have 10s of billions of dollars in machinery out that is leased out, they're just trying to protect it.

presumably they have to do some refurbishing and rehab when they get it back anyway. why not re-flash all the software then? or, somewhat more draconian, add in explicit penalties for people who tamper with leased vehicles, with a contract clause to that effect?

i mean, i don't doubt that the concern you mention might be part of it. but it sure is also a convenient way to lock people out of servicing their own stuff. and i doubt they're eager to give people the ability to service their own equipment without a strong public demand for that ability.

so the public should keep demanding that (as opposed to relying on the altruism of a large corporation).

This is the sole reason why I would never think about "owning" (if you can call it that) a Tesla.

Do you think you "own" the car you drive now? You don't. Not since cars came with any computers at all has anyone fully owned their vehicle.

I don't see a problem with this, in most cases, and I only sort of understand why people get upset about it. It's simple and easy (and fully legal in most states) to just design and build your own vehicle to your own specifications, provided you meet minimum requirements regarding road worthiness.

You certainly can truly own your own commercially available car if you're willing to hire a lawyer, negotiate, and pay for a license that includes whatever it is that crosses the threshold into whatever a given person considers true ownership. And I can tell you immediately that this license will cost you at least 50 times the list price of that vehicle, will not be a transferable license, and you will not be allowed to sublicense it.

It's not that you can't own your car, it's that no one is willing to pay for true ownership, because it is entirely impractical and unimportant to fully own a car in today's world.

An ECU is not typically remotely controlled and updated. You can also replace an ECU, to one with more control so that you can fine tune performance.

For cars that do have that feature, I doubt hiring lawyers will change anything. No one is obligated to sell you anything.

You can't adjust it. If you can, you can't see the code, you can only modify data already compiled in.

You can replace the entire thing with a compatible and programmable module, if people care enough to develop one. There are now cars from the 80s that are modern enough to have computers, but old enough that the ECUs are starting to deteriorate, and still appreciated enough that people repair or replace them.

Example: (not an endorsement and I have no experience with this product)

http://roguetuning.com/rogue_tuning_ecu

You can swap out the entire thing if you want and do a reflash. It's not a beginner job but it's also not impossible, or illegal (if it still meets emissions, but that's on you)

hearsay from my car enthusiast friends and this cursory internet search contradict that claim.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=modify+ECU&t=ffab&ia=web

Yea maybe you're right and you can only partially modify it.

that is one point of view.

another point of view is that freedom to tinker and repair shouldn't be limited to the super-rich, and that what you're describing isn't practical for the vast majority of the population.

i have exactly zero problems with society collectively pushing for the right to repair against greedy companies who'd rather not give it.

which is to say, we should legislate a strong right to repair, so that denying it is clearly illegal, so that we can take companies to task using something other than the invisible hand of the market.

I happen to own a car without any computer control, and for which the parts for the engine and drivetrain are cheap and readily available with a large aftermarket that's existed for many decades. It might not be the safest nor very environmentally friendly, but to me the ease of repair, simplicity, and freedom are what lead me to make that choice. If EVs were as "ownable" and came without the privacy-invading phone-home spyware as well as had a more sensible UI, I'd consider getting one for trips around town.

Another comment here compared Tesla to Apple, and I think that's a great comparison. I wonder if there's a strong correlation between users who love/hate Apple products and the same opinions of Tesla?

Can I ask which car that is?

72 Caprice, mild tune 400, 700R4 semi-automatic valvebody.

One thing missing from her story. Did she pay cash for the Model 3? Because if she's making bank payments on her new Tesla I'm not sure she legally can cut it up.

I'm not saying that what she's done isn't amazing. But if her bank learns what she's done they will not I would think be very happy.

Depends on the loan. In general, you can modify whatever you want with a car under loan but NOT under lease. However, modifications usually mean your car is worth less and you have a higher chance of being underwater, so could result in an additional financial liability in the case of a repo.

She makes anywhere between $18k - $30k per month from patreon alone, on top of her youtube revenue. I think she's well past being burdened by such issues.

I would imagine a youtuber of her caliber would expense this as a business purchase. I doubt she took a loan for this.