News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by the_duke on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:11AM (#20074741)
Great to see mainstream media picking this up and giving Firefox some exposure.

With Microsoft switching to Chromium, Firefox is now the only viable (cross platform) alternative. FF gaining back a solid amount of market share is critical for the browser ecosystem in the future.

(Personally I switched back to FF after the first Quantum release, which brought performance back on par with Chrome. On mobile, the ad blocker is even more essential to get somewhat acceptable load times...)

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by jm4 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:14AM (#20075571)
It’s not mainstream media. It’s a contributor site. You can pay some money and get one of your own. You can post whatever you want on there. They offer to do a little bit of editing and proofreading to make it look professional before it goes online. There is no fact checking. These contributor sites are essentially blogs that carry the credibility of Forbes even though they don’t deserve it.

I see contributor sites being linked all over the place - social media, news aggregators, even Apple news. I wish there was more awareness that these articles are written by some regular person with no qualifications as a journalist and that there is no standard for accuracy.

I’ve been asked to be a contributor before. I don’t know what the criteria is. I got a cold call about it one day. I’ve been a panelist at a couple local events, got a mention in a niche news outlet and was nominated for an award once. My guess is that’s why I was targeted as a lead. The pitch was mostly about having a bigger platform for my personal brand if I remember correctly.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by kwhitefoot on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:03AM (#20075889)
> carry the credibility of Forbes

What credibility is that? My impression is that they have lost quite a lot of what they once had for exactly this reason.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by classicsnoot on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:10AM (#20075937)
What are the "qualifications of a journalist?" They are people with opinions that write stuff. If you think journalism and writing departments are teaching rigor and factual veracity, you are mistaken. I've only come to it recently, but Gell-Mann Amnesia Affect is something to be aware of and avoid.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect?wpr...

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by hnhg on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:36PM (#20076453)
Try to get a job at a major news outlet without recognised journalism qualifications.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by jm4 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:54PM (#20077251)
Quality and opinion of mainstream media aside, I think we can all appreciate the difference between someone paid for their work by a professional news outlet and someone off the street who is paying Forbes to host their blog.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by ljm on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:30AM (#20074826)
I hope to see Firefox eventually providing an embeddable framework, considering that Chromium isn't just monopolising the web browser space... it's spreading into desktop applications through Electron. Left unchecked, Google will manage to poke its fingers into every pie within reach.

It seems like the ideal solution of using the OS's native web toolkit hasn't been successful so far. So the next best offering (aside from building on Qt), is to have an Electron competitor too.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by Yoric on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:45PM (#20076501)
On Android, Mozilla offers GeckoView.

I don't think that there's a desktop offering at the moment. There used to be quite a few (XULRunner, Prism, etc.) but they all died from lack of love.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by dvfjsdhgfv on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:17AM (#20074999)
I regret XUL was abandoned - it was a great idea, but much ahead of its time.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by eloisant on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:53AM (#20075157)
XUL was just a markup language to create interfaces, it became obsolete as HTML got refined.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by furgooswft13 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:14AM (#20075572)
Even to this day, XUL is far more capable than HTML. It has built-in widgets for many common desktop GUI elements that still need to be created from scratch in HTML+Javascript, and notably uses the native chrome of whatever OS it is running on to render them.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by XzetaU8 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:06AM (#20075200)
Abandoned by Mozilla, not by Pale Moon/Basilisk though.

http://thereisonlyxul.org/

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by tinus_hn on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:51AM (#20075436)
XUL is a great idea but not for browser chrome. That’s an area where it is truly worth the effort to make it fast and light, secure and stable.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by mongol on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:46AM (#20075125)
That was before Firefox was born, right? Or was the success of Firefox the demise of XUL?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by cptskippy on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:58AM (#20075479)
XUL was the markup language used by the Mozilla Communicator Suite for designing user interfaces. It was what Add-on development used.

Mozilla deprecated it not that long ago in favor of HTML but stalwarts have clung to it and complained.

I use to maintain a couple Add-ons and developed some simple UIs for it. I was never impressed by it and it was easy enough to use so I had no objections either.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by simias on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:56AM (#20075166)
I'm not sure what you're asking exactly but XUL existed a long time after Firefox was born and became popular. I remember using a XUL app at work around 2010.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by teknopaul on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:29AM (#20075045)
Plus one. This was the beggining of the rot in Mozila. This marked the moment the went from making general purpose web/http based platforms based on OpenSource principals to builing a single a www specific advertising platform. I still use Firefox and support them financially. Its the best we have. But they stopped caring about anything other that being the frontpage to the Internet a long time ago. They gave up on supporting developers.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by kabwj on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:12AM (#20075552)
XULrunner was a great idea, so the executives of the Mozilla Corporation had to sack it.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by efreak on Monday June 03, 2019 @04:59AM (#20081493)
You mean like Positron? That was abandoned several years ago. So was Spidernode, FirefoxOS/apps, etc. Other dropped projects include Shumway, the JavaScript flash runtime. Basically every interesting thing they do that isn't directly related to improving Firefox seems to get dropped eventually.

Then there's GeckoView, which they explicitly decided not to make available as a WebView drop-in to be available systemwide on Android. In this case, at least they seem to have a reason, though it seems to me that having an alternative to Google's WebView would be valuable enough to continue.

[dead]
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by hpcjoe on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:04PM (#20076267)
Not sure of your meaning of "Linux void of polished apps." Do you mean commercial apps running natively on linux?

FWIW, I've been running Linux as my primary desktop through 4 companies and 20+ years thus far. I'm not at a loss for applications, native or hosted, that I use in my day to day work.

I'm actually quite happy that I no longer need to worry about installing Microsoft office (current day job uses this suite). Online works great, and when offline, libreoffice 6+ allows me to continue to work with the same docs.

Prior to this, Google docs worked perfectly fine for $dayjob-1, and worked perfectly well across Linux, Mac, Android, so I didn't have any significant issues with it.

Really, Linux is a fine desktop. Seems to be about 2x more common accessing my blog than Mac, and about 1/2 that of windows. I can't imagine all of those are server users. Must be some polished and usable desktop apps in the mix to be able to see that.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by thecrazyone on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:17PM (#20076686)
Not sure about the website you run but there might be a corelation to Linux users and your site. It could be either due to your network and the way people came to know about the site or it could be the content among other things
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by rusticpotato on Sunday June 02, 2019 @02:02PM (#20076976)
There’s a ton of cool apps for productivity, time management, health, note taking, all in iOS due to iPad ecosystem. Apple pulled a smart one and democratized file extension monopolies by making App Store ecosystem relatively cheap for customers. This incentivized a ton of high quality lower cost apps that now all have their own file extensions on top of importing stuff like pdf and psd, and the iOS share menu has basically turned apps into Linux command line tools where you set up your own work flow chain. Apple has now positioned iOS libraries in next OS X to be importable into OS X, thus now all these iOS apps can be posted easily into OS X. Essentially, iOS has now liberated the user from .doc, .ppt, .xls, .psd dependencies and soon it will spread into OS X.

Linux has no such source of ample high quality apps that don’t cost hundreds of dollars in fees like in windows (office 365 and adobe, I’m looking at you)

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by andybak on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:33AM (#20076075)
When I switched from Windows to Mac a while back it struck me that I needed to rely on paid apps a lot more. There seemed to be more quality freeware for Windows.

I'm also running a fair few Electron apps on my Mac at the moment.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by zzzcpan on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:01AM (#20075184)
> With Microsoft switching to Chromium, Firefox is now the only viable

I'm not sure I understand your point. Is there a public statement from Microsoft that they are following Google on this? I don't know what Microsoft is going to do, but nothing stops them from keeping the API fully working. And if Firefox was based on Chromium too, nothing would stop Mozilla from keeping the API working either. Although I expect some forks to follow Google on this, namely other ad-tech companies with web browsers, like Yandex.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by ymck on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:16AM (#20075588)
Agreed. And so far in the dev releases, they are stripping out all the Google services.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by aiscapehumanity on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:18AM (#20075251)
MS new edge successor browser is built on chromium?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by cptskippy on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:00AM (#20075485)
Yes, it's called Edge.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by fibers on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:17AM (#20075996)
In 2019 the team basically switched to webkit/chromium
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by mda on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:32PM (#20077506)
Blink/Chromium
[dead]
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by aioprisan on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:42AM (#20075381)
That's a bold accusation and would make the case that there's no real difference between Chrome and Firefox, can you point to the evidence that supports this?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by ravenstine on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:33AM (#20075325)
Citation? I've never heard of that.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by wayneftw on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:40AM (#20075377)
Look up Firefox Pocket and Firefox Gab/Dissenter.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by aioprisan on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:48AM (#20075410)
Pocket, the easy to enable/disable way to save websites for reading later, and Gab, the far-right social network, as exposed by Columbia Journalism Review?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by duck___sauce on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:38AM (#20075710)
Pocket which by default suggests "pocket worthy" articles and ads on the new tab page (which after a while you get a feel for what "pocket worthy" actually means).

The other day I got one that made the case that both private schools and homeschooling should be illegal.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by andrepd on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:08AM (#20075531)
>Pocket

I don't follow. How does a built in extension to save pages to a cloud account equate with the systematic and pervasive abuses of privacy that are Google's business model?

>Gab

I was not aware of this platform. Here are some lovely snippets from Wikipedia:

>Gab stated that conservative, libertarian, nationalist and populist internet users were its target markets.

What a lovely "free speech" platform. Can't imagine why it was "censored", where by censored we actually mean: we will not distribute this on our website, though you are still free to install it on your machine if you want. Come on... Porn is also legal, and also not available on the Firefox website, and also freely available for you to get elsewhere.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by ymck on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:23AM (#20075621)
Personally, I think that Gab is a dumpster fire that it's best to avoid, yet I am very sensitive to browsers making content/editorial decisions for their users. From a security perspective teaching users to jump around browser protections is never a good idea. It's going to bite us in the butt at some point.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by duck___sauce on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:42AM (#20075729)
Ignoring the fact that pocket is a company with dozens of employees who curate content and calling it just an extension to save pages is deeply disingenuous. If you're right, why lie? Pocket suggests articles and lets you save them.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by abacadaba on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:24AM (#20076029)
I'd be mad except that I often find the suggestions interesting. Don't really get the whole save for later thing, sounds like bookmarks.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by blisterpeanuts on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:43AM (#20075387)
Firefox (as well as Chrome) has blocked the Dissenter add-on because it supposedly violates their community standards.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by heinrich5991 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:06AM (#20075910)
Firefox hasn't blocked the extension as far as I know, they're "merely" not offering it on AMO anymore. You can still install it via the author's website.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by kace91 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:28AM (#20075655)
I just wish they finally fixed the bug that makes it unusable for me and thousands of other users using macbooks with resolution set to "more space"... I can't count how many people in my office I've had to help after their macbook randomly starts heating and turning fans to max power, it's always that they started using firefox.

I've been checking the tickets associated with the issue (mainly [this one](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042) ) and there doesn't seem to be any significant advance, nor it seems the people in charge are aware of how prevalent and deal breaking this bug is :(

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by mimsee on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:41AM (#20075724)
yeah, I also noticed this and this is the one reason I wont be switching to Firefox on my macbook. On other PCs I’ve been using firefox for a long time now.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by behnamoh on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:46AM (#20076147)
It's not just that. Exporting Passwords from Chrome to FF is impossible in macOS. Not a day goes by that I don't have to enter my password for a website. Thus, switching to FF actually means re-entering tens of passwords manually (given that you do remember the passwords, otherwise you'll have to go to Passwords Manager in Chrome and see the saved passwords).
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by defined on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:28PM (#20076404)
Might it be worth using a password manager instead, like 1Password, or KeePass and its variants?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by fjeremic on Monday June 03, 2019 @09:52AM (#20083045)
Sorry to be completely off topic here as HN does not support private messages or replies to old threads.

A long shot but you may be able to save us countless hours of effort. Over at the OpenJ9 project we're trying to get z/OS testing for our JDK and one of the dependencies is the XML::Parse perl library which depends on libexpat. In [1] you mentioned you worked on porting this to work with EBCDIC. Did you ever succeed? If so are your changes available in open source anywhere?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14084875

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by behnamoh on Sunday June 02, 2019 @03:07PM (#20077328)
Maybe, but the problem of exporting passwords from Chrome still exists.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by outadoc on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:45PM (#20076500)
Oh god! That's why my battery life is better since switching back to the standard resolution. What an awful bug.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by kace91 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @06:14PM (#20078658)
Indeed.

In my experience the bug is usually overlooked because people won't notice that they only have performance issues when the browser is open - for most people, the browser is always running nowadays.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by rcthompson on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:03AM (#20075881)
I wonder if this bug also applies to using the "Looks like 1280x800" option on a MBP with a 2560x1600 screen (this is what I use). The default is "Looks like 1440x900".
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by tolle on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:20PM (#20076353)
It doesn't, or it's at least better.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by pessimizer on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:59AM (#20076231)
> FF gaining back a solid amount of market share is critical for the browser ecosystem in the future.

But firefox has shown no indication of gaining marketshare. I'd reckon that a large amount of firefox's current marketshare are people who had pre-Quantum extentions that were critical to their workflow, and who are now using an outdated browser version. One big vulnerability or generally adopted new feature would probably knock a third off even the 5-10% share they currently have.

Firefox's share is so small that the other two-thirds is probably evenly split between google-haters, a constant turnover of people just trying it out for a month or two before going back to Chrome, and people who use Chrome for most of their browsing and switch to Firefox for porn because they are afraid google is watching them.

When firefox was at 40% of the market and shrinking, they somehow decided that their problem was that they didn't look like a cheap knockoff, drop-in replacement for their competitor. They succeeded in making themselves totally disposable.

IMO, their only hope is and has always been to strip their browser down to a virtually featureless embeddable UI component, implement the rest of the current features as a core curated package of plugins against an API that all developers have equal access to, adopt all community-developed plugins that reach a certain usage level, and add a rating system for plugins that communicates the level of mozilla's involvement, e.g. gold for in-house, green for having employees intimately involved with the code, yellow for periodically reviewed by mozilla, red for never reviewed by mozilla, and flashing red for never reviewed by mozilla, has had complaints, and has not responded or been contacted by mozilla.

Other vendors will end up putting together different core suites, and will offer their own ratings, ultimately spawning 5-10 major concurrent firefox versions and swamping chrome out of existence. Through being able to lay off much of the reviewing work to outside vendors, firefox developers can concentrate all of their efforts on streamlining the core, educational outreach about the internet and the web, and lawsuits against the monopolists for adding anti-features to their sites targeted to ruin the user experience on specific browsers.

Instead, firefox has settled into being the token opposition party in a dictatorship that just exists to make sure that there's another name on the ballot come election time, and the dictator only gets 96% of the vote instead of 100%.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by ufo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:45AM (#20075396)
This is not mainstream media. It is just a blog hosted on Forbes' platform.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by netman21 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:03AM (#20075498)
Right on. Forbes.com hosts my blog. They provide minimal editorial oversight, usually limited to making sure you capitalize every word in the title per their style guide.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by velox_io on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:14AM (#20075970)
Wow, I never knew/ expected MS to switch to Chromium. Given how much MS boasts about Edge's battery life over Chrome.

Hopefully Google leaves a workaround to enable ad-blocking. Otherwise, I will switch, it will be a bit of hassle, but I'll drop them none the less. No ads & lower power usage would be nice though.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/8/18300077/microsoft-edge-ch...

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by Riverheart on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:36PM (#20076454)
They have Github developers already deep in Chromium for Electron which is powering VSCode so rather than maintain two separate teams, better to focus everybody on Chromium.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by treis on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:20AM (#20076005)
>With Microsoft switching to Chromium, Firefox is now the only viable (cross platform) alternative. FF gaining back a solid amount of market share is critical for the browser ecosystem in the future

Why are multiple rendering and JS engines critical for the browser ecosystem? Everyone would be much better off if we standardized on one.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by josefx on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:22PM (#20076370)
The next Chrome standard manifest says that ad blockers are a deprecated feature since they hurt Googles business.

Looking a bit further (into possible future business needs of Alphabet) you might see that chrome will refuse to serve anything not based on Googles AMP standard and globally remove anything that hurts their partnership with the Chinese government.

This is the single standard JS engine we are looking forward to.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by treis on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:22PM (#20076727)
>The next Chrome standard manifest says that ad blockers are a deprecated feature since they hurt Googles business.

Ad blocking isn't part of the rendering or JS engine.

>Looking a bit further (into possible future business needs of Alphabet) you might see that chrome will refuse to serve anything not based on Googles AMP standard and globally remove anything that hurts their partnership with the Chinese government.

>This is the single standard JS engine we are looking forward to.

This is just unsubstantiated fear mongering and mostly flat out wrong. If worst came to worst and Google rammed something like that into Chromium everyone else could just fork it and remove the offending parts. A Google Chromium and a Non-google Chromium fork is still way better than what we have now today with four distinct engines in Chrome, Firefox, Safari, and IE.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by josefx on Sunday June 02, 2019 @05:13PM (#20078245)
> Ad blocking isn't part of the rendering or JS engine.

If we believe Google it is in a very performance sensitive part of the APIs, I would say that makes it a prime target for future optimizations just to hard wire the performant behavior directly into the engine.

> This is just unsubstantiated fear mongering and mostly flat out wrong.

Of course we can always count on a profit driven company to do the right thing and there was never a project Dragonfly at Google, just as there was never a Tiananmen Square massacre. Trust in Alphabets morality absolutely, trust that when they are doing something obviously wrong that they are doing it for the right reasons.

> Google rammed something like that into Chromium everyone else could just fork it

Maintaining a fork is going to be quite difficult when upstream wants you dead, already ships black box modules for some features and represents the de facto standard for 99% of the world.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by SCHiM on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:36AM (#20076093)
I don't think so. Google is abusing their power with Chrome to force their standards on others. I hope they lose their grip on the browser market like MS did, and standards become open.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by treis on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:04PM (#20076266)
The standards are open. The problem is that browsers don't implement them 100% the same and they add in their own features. Settling on a single implementation fixes that issue. Different browsers can compete based on ancillary features like Linux distros do.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by tiles on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:18PM (#20076339)
> Settling on a single implementation fixes that issue.

When Microsoft was in a monopoly position, they ignored the standards and pushed ActiveX plugins. Chrome this year wanted to push other browsers to adopt obsolete U2F specifications because they used them in Google products. If there's a single implementation, and the gatekeepers are majority from one company, standards and interoperability become irrelevant.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by treis on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:29PM (#20076776)
>If there's a single implementation, and the gatekeepers are majority from one company, standards and interoperability become irrelevant.

That's a good thing. What's the point of maintaining four separate software projects who's ideal purpose is to literally do the exact same thing. It's much better to settle on one open source project. If we think Google is the boogeyman then settling on a Chromium fork is still light years better than what we have now.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by feanaro on Monday June 03, 2019 @03:11PM (#20087050)
I think this is incredibly shortsighted. From a programming perspective, large codebases are a bit like complex organisms and experience a sort of evolution. Forcing yourself into a single local minimum in the form of a single browser implementation guarantees that it will be much harder to avoid having the same constant set of strengths and flaws.

The common ground is the standard not the browser implementation. The web has been working well and is still working well with multiple implementations.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by vinceguidry on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:10PM (#20079885)
Forom a technical standpoint it's of course unideal, but from a governance standpoint there's a lot to be gained. The browser is a critical piece of infrastructure and handing a monopoly to one company is essentially sleeping at the wheel. As long as there's significant economic value in providing the platform, competition is in the public interest.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by threatofrain on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:44AM (#20074876)
Which site has the most reliable browser metrics?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by yorwba on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:32AM (#20075065)
https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity probably has the most reliable metrics on Firefox users. Not enough to compare to other browsers, but if there's a large switch from Chrome to Firefox, it should eventually show up on the graph.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by dijit on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:29AM (#20074821)
I think safari is more cross platform than IE, since you can run safari on macOS and Windows. But IE only runs on Windows.

EDIT: I have been informed that it's not cross-platform since 2012. My bad.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by jekrb on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:19AM (#20075005)
The canary version of Microsoft Edge now works on macOS (but that's because Edge switched to running chromium)
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by thestephen on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:35AM (#20074843)
Safari hasn't been supported for Windows since 2012.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by dijit on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:53AM (#20074908)
Ah. I apologise. I don’t use Windows, and haven’t for years but have vivid memories of using safari on Windows.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by riamu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:34AM (#20074840)
Safari is a terrible, Apple-like version of WebKit. The last viable windows version of Safari was abandoned 8 years ago, so please nobody use this browser.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by jnwkw on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:40AM (#20074862)
Safari is the fastest browser I've ever used on mobile. It also supports ad blocking. Calling it "terrible" simply does not resonate with me.

Chrome is slower and Firefox on mobile is a joke.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by willtim on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:14AM (#20074987)
Firefox on mobile has improved enormously since Quantum. It works well enough to ditch Chrome.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by ycgeu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:18AM (#20075002)
No it doesn't. For example to tap a link you have to tap it directly, links don't have a halo around them to make them easier to tap. Tapping things like the [-] buttons here in HN is very hard. It's stupid shit like that that makes it unusable for me. I don't believe for a second the developers of Firefox for Android use it every day and haven't fixed that. And if they don't dogfood what hope is there for that software?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by yorwba on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:28AM (#20075043)
> I don't believe for a second the developers of Firefox for Android use it every day and haven't fixed that.

Why is that so unbelievable? I use Firefox every day and haven't even considered that this might be a problem. I don't have difficulty hitting the [-] on HN, but if I did, I would simply zoom in until it becomes large enough.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by noir_lord on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:22AM (#20075617)
Same, used Firefox on Android (currently on a 5.5" phone (Nokia 6.1)) for over a year without a single issue.

Chrome still had a slightly better UI the last time I tried it but the gap wasn't remotely wide enough to give up ublock origin.

Adverts are even more annoying on phones than they are on desktop so been able to run ublock origin directly on device is a major win.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by patrick5415 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:23PM (#20076371)
I’m amazed at the tiny inconveniences that lead people to something is totally broken and completely unusable.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by jekrb on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:14AM (#20074986)
Have you tried Brave browser on mobile? It's quite fast and blocks ads.

A couple issues with Safari I've seen since it's slower to adopt web standards:

- buggier websites from devs who don't have iPhones. Since there are some quirky inconsistencies with how webkit handles css vs other browser rendering engines it's easy not to catch those quirks if you don't have an iPhone to check them with. And once users point them out, it's a pain to fix without a physical device.

- a smaller web feature set than chrome/Firefox. For instance, Safari doesn't allow localstorage while in incognito. I think it supports serviceworkers and webrtc now but it took years to get them.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by walterbell on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:22AM (#20075265)
> For instance, Safari doesn't allow localstorage while in incognito.

Isn't that good for privacy? Localstorage can store unique IDs and other data about the client's past behavior, it's much more dangerous than cookies.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by jekrb on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:34AM (#20076080)
It would be nice if localstorage worked in a new instance in incognito. This way webapps that require it can still function without affecting non-incognito tabs. What other privacy concerns would there be I'm wondering?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by walterbell on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:10PM (#20076300)
If incognito mode discards localstorage, there is risk of silent data loss. E.g. imagine a web-based editor that saved drafts.

Websites can detect the absence of localstorage and change their behavior, e.g. notify the user that information will be lost after the session ends.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by revvx on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:34AM (#20076079)
> For instance, Safari doesn't allow localstorage while in incognito

It does allow (at least in the version I'm using), but doesn't persist the data between sessions. Which is the whole point of Icognito mode.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by kekebo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:51AM (#20074906)
If you're on iOS it would make sense since Apple is only allowing it's own webkit as browser engine, forcing chromium and firefox to be disfigured versions of what they are on other systems.

When I was working more frontend (~1,5 years ago) no browser would cause more work and trouble for us than Safari on iOS (we didn't have to support IE9 and lower).

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by jnwkw on Sunday June 02, 2019 @07:53AM (#20074911)
Nah I'm talking about Chrome and Firefox on Android. They are both worse than Safari on iOS.

Also I understand that Safari might've created some pain for you as a frontend developer, but frankly I don't care. I'm an end user and I only care about how fast and secure the browser is. And Safari wins there, it's not terrible by any measure for the end user.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by seabrookmx on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:23AM (#20075275)
Safari being faster on iOS might be more indicative of your iDevice's performance rather than Safari's (the A-series chips are quite fast). Without being able to run both browsers on the same hardware you can't really make an apples to apples comparison.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:21AM (#20075012)
> Chrome and Firefox on Android. They are both worse than Safari on iOS

I realize that this is subjective, but Firefox Focus has been my preferred mobile browser, regardless of if I have Safari available, (iPad), or not, (Android). In fact having desktop addons on Android has been great.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by kekebo on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:10AM (#20074973)
That might be your personal impression but I don't share it.

Development wise it's not so much about our pain as about certain known bugs that went unfixed for up to 2+ years, similar goes for a range of CVEs (re:being secure).

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by jnwkw on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:13AM (#20074982)
Do you believe Chrome or Firefox on Android to be faster or more secure than Safari on iOS?
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by ethelward on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:29AM (#20075048)
Performances issues will be hard to estimate, as you can not compare safari to the others on the same phone, which means that you will not be able to correct for hardware and software stacks influences.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by xenator on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:57AM (#20075833)
In last version of Safari uBlock shows warning that it is not supported anymore and slow down your browsing experience. Adblockers from App Store are limited by number of allowed rules the same way as in promised Chrome API changes. If we should start to worry about browser shift then Safari should be first in the list.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by riamu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:55AM (#20075162)
Ok that's fair. From a developer's PoV, Safari is a terrible browser. It's old and buggy and stifles innovation on iOS in the same way ie did on windows.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by madeofpalk on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:07AM (#20075204)
As a web developer, I find this to be anything be true. Safari supports loads of cool features that clients ask for, like native css carousels (css snap points), and blur effects (backdrop-filter). Chrome, does not.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by seabrookmx on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:30AM (#20075303)
As a web developer, I like my browser to implement internet standards correctly so websites actually work. People aren't trashing Safari because it's cool.. generally Apple provides a great software experience. But Safari is a bug ridden mess.

Here's an example that broke many many sites that use OAuth2 Auth Code Flow for login (including the main UI portal my company provides clients): https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=194906

There's also been issues with the handling of 3rd party cookies that create issues for login systems, js stdlib functions being incorrectly implemented, etc.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by dmitriid on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:10AM (#20075537)
Safari generally implements standards as they mature.

Chrome generally implements everything new and shiny, no matter how underspecified it is, and with blatant disregard to whether or not it breaks the web.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by seabrookmx on Sunday June 02, 2019 @01:32PM (#20076798)
I don't disagree with regards to new standards, but that doesn't change the fact that existing, well established standards are often broken in Safari (see the bug I linked in the parent comment). These bugs are much more likely to break the web than Chrome's half baked bleeding edge features because there's already a huge body of web software that relies on them.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by riamu on Sunday June 02, 2019 @12:08PM (#20076292)
If you're still developing carousels then you deserve everything you get with Safari. Have fun with that :)
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by madeofpalk on Monday June 03, 2019 @04:20AM (#20081329)
???

Software has these everywhere. iOS and Android homescreens are carousels. Netflix 'rails' are carousels. CSS Snap Points is a way to create native snapping scrolling views, which Safari and IE supports, but Chrome does not.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by lern_too_spel on Sunday June 02, 2019 @11:00AM (#20075858)
> It also supports ad blocking.

It supports the same crippled ad blocking that this article complains about. It is also years behind the competitors in standards support, and the standards it claims to support are implemented buggily. Finally, it crashes more often than its competitors, but I suppose making a browser unusable is one way to save battery.

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by blablabla123 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:19AM (#20075605)
Since I have the new Macbook Air I also switched to Safari because it also extends battery lifetime. Still need to get used to the different keyboard shortcuts and plugin system though.

(But yes, if I do Frontend development, I use Chrome)

Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by Zardoz84 on Sunday June 02, 2019 @08:48AM (#20075133)
I'm using Firefox for mobile since Quantum, and works better that Chrome (except for a few pages that don't bother on supporting Firefox on any platform)
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by iforgotpassword on Sunday June 02, 2019 @09:25AM (#20075278)
For me it's faster on mobile mostly since I can just install ublock origin so most pages load and execute much less crap.
Re:Google Just Gave 2B Chrome Users a Reason to Switch to Fi... by NightlyDev on Sunday June 02, 2019 @10:15AM (#20075580)
You clearly don't have much experience as a developer with Safari on iOS. It's a terrible browser full of bugs and inconsistent behavior.