I can't verify the quality of these studies but it seems that injury rates per 1000 active hours of crossfit at 0.27 - 0.74 [1] are significantly lower than more common sports such as running at 2.9 - 4.4 and basketball at 6.3 - 12.9 [2]

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6201188/ [2] http://bionics.seas.ucla.edu/education/Rowing/Injury_2004_01...

Importantly, the study "assumes" that participants performed a "maximum number of hours per week" rather than measuring the actual hours per week. Because they "assume" the amount of time spent exercising, their injuries per 1000 hours metric is simply wrong.

Specifically, this study conflicts with several other studies that found significantly higher rates of injury (and which this study acknowledges), including 2 studies which found a 20% rate of injury and 50% rate of injury for Crossfit athletes, respectively, using controlled observational samples rather than the self-reported, self-selected sample of this study.

Anecdotally, I don't know any current Crossfitters without overuse injuries--including those who go to the "safe" gyms. I also know a larger number of former Crossfitters, all of whom stopped because of injury.

>this study conflicts with several other studies that found significantly higher rates of injury

Can you provide a citation?

The fundamentals of Crossfit are entirely sound. A warmup followed by some subset of bodyweight exercises, calisthenics, rowing, running, climbing, and (olympic) weightlifting is a completely reasonable fitness regimen. Being sensible is a matter of leveling the workout to your own particular circumstances: age and overall fitness being the two biggest factors.

But yeah I've also seen the videos on youtube of people doing heavy barbell back squats on a bosu ball and similar, to use the technical term, stupid shit that will get you hurt.

Mark Rippetoe has one of the better criticisms of CrossFit: it's just an exercise program, not a training program. Proof is that the athletes that compete in and win the Crossfit games don't actually do Crossfit to prepare, they have specific training regimens for those games.

Being sensible is not having a WoD one size fits all. It oversimplifies too much IMO.

People, specially who are new, haven’t gotten serious injuries, or just don’t understand how exercise can get you high, tend to fall in the WoD trap from my observations.

There have been a great mindset change with CrossFit in terms of sharing good knowledge, welcoming new members no matter their level and mixing everyone together but still everyday seems to be race day in CrossFit.

I completely agree. Any Crossfit gym where the coach doesn't enthusiastically support scaling down from the "Rx" is one nobody should go to. As I've said elsewhere in this thread I don't do Crossfit (I'm lazy and I hate cardio so I powerlift), but I know many people that do and their coaches have been entirely supportive of proper scaling to ability, with an eye toward progression of course.

Last I checked there wasn’t CrossFit for basketball. You should compare apples to apples. How does it stack up against (trained) non-CrossFit weight training?

Judging by how those idiots abuse gym equipment I’d expect poorly, but prove me wrong.

I power-lifted. I got injured. Many of us did.

It's much higher. Even the studies show it: https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/wp-content/u...

https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/2014/07/08/i...

Powerlifting is definitely not the same as general CrossFit and is pretty obviously a dangerous sport. I would guess that based on the amount of jerking and twisting I see in CrossFitters doing powerlifting that the injury rate would be higher still within that specific discipline. Again, all speculation on my part.

I’m thinking an intense workout with good form and control vs. a standard CrossFit workout.

> I’m thinking an intense workout with good form and control vs. a standard CrossFit workout

A standard CrossFit without is done with good form and control.

Most CrossFit gyms aim for good form and control. All workouts can be scaled, if you can't lift a certain weight, or perform a certain movement you scale it down to a weight or movement you can do comfortably.

For instance, if you were asked to perform a workout which required handstand push-ups and you couldn't do them, you could scale to a box and do a more triangular movement, or you could grab some dumbbells and push-press. If a movement said 100kg deadlift and you can only comfortably deadlift 40kg then you would use 40kg instead.

Most coaches will talk through this and if you have questions, they'll mostly be happy to answer. Of course there are some coaches out there which aren't doing their job correctly, but most of them are really good at what they do.

Crossfit now aims for good form and control.

That wasn't true several years ago during the Uncle Rhabdo phase, and Crossfit only changed its tune because of the overwhelming bad press about injury rates. Back then, it was about doing exercises as fast and as many times as possible.

and as any other transition, it takes time to incorporate. A lot of gyms and coaches I still see those days know/care very little about proper form and exercise individualization, periodization to make it safer.

Since you have such specific demands for a study that will satisfy your prejudices, I think you should find it yourself instead of demanding other, more resourceful and open minded people find it for you.

Powerlifting is probably the most dangerous weight lifting discipline, because of the bench press[1]. Almost all of these are due to lifting alone, without a spotter, and without proper safety mechanisms (like a rack with crossbars). This seems to be a downvote happy thread, but this needs to be said: Don't bench without a spotter or safety gear. Ever!

[1] https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fulltext/2003/05001/U_S__...

I don't bench that often, but I do it without a spotter or safety gear. I use normal grip (not the thumbless "suicide" grip), never go to failure, do medium-low weight/medium-high reps (8-12), and most importantly, I don't lock the weights, so worst comes to worst, I can always just tilt the bar and drop the weights...

If the worst comes to worst, push the bar down to your belly. You have saved your neck this way, giving yourself the chance to tilt the bar in a controlled manner after a breath. If you are already failing, tilting the bar might be too much without more O2

Sure, but "failure" isn't "dropping the bar on your throat"... that would be catastrophic failure that shouldn't really happen (and not even a spotter could save you). When I lift, "failure" is usually just "can't lift the bar to the top" so there's more than enough strength to lower it a bit to tilt it...

I always had both of those things (and a coach).

My personal injury was a pinched sciatic nerve brought on by a session of improper deadlifting. I made the mistake of rushing through a workout near when I was lifting my heaviest. Took about 3 months for the pain to go away.

I was a multi sport athlete and loved crossfit when I did it. Guess it all depends on where you go.

Just wondering here --

Isn't crossfit different depending on where you go?

I believe it was invented by some European guy... who did stuff with kettlebells. And most of those exercises are good.

I think the American variant is the one that's dangerous. (Or am I misinformed here?)

Don't think it's a geographical split. Crossfit is great if you have really well-informed trainers that put a strong emphasis on getting form and movements correct. Unfortunately there are significant numbers of trainers that do not have the qualifications to be teaching and they put people at serious risk of injury (and end up creating ridiculous exercises for the internet to make fun of).

Well, considering you could get certified as a CF instructor in a weekend session, I am entirely unsurprised.

kipping is fucking hilarious

What's hilarious about using momentum to progress to a muscle up and eventually a strict muscle up?

In my observation, and this is at many gyms (btw I don't do Crossfit), very few people do every rep of a pull up from a true dead hang. Kipping is silly looking, but the technique does allow you to progress your way into a muscle up, kind of like a push press can help you train your strict press past what you otherwise could.

That’s because people are impatient and weak. Dead hang pullups are real pullups.

Kipping only leads you to kipping muscle ups. Go on YouTube and see examples of real muscle ups from dead hangs with no momentum. That is true strength, and a worthy goal. The sooner you stop kipping, the faster you can get there.

I have the greatest respect for gymnasts, because they are basically top of the heap for pound for pound strength. It's not an area of expertise for me though, so please enlighten me: if using momentum to get a kipping muscle up and then gradually reducing the momentum assist until you can do it strictly isn't the right progression, what is?

I think the main problem with the Crossfit-kipping-approach you often see on YouTube is that it doesn't look like the person being filmed is at all interested in ever transitioning to a proper muscle up, but rather to kip as much as possible to get as many reps as possible in 60 second or w/e.

You're absolutely right in that you need to start somewhere, and a properly instructed kip can definitely help there. But you could also start by doing negatives of the partial exercises (start pulled/pushed up and lower yourself down in a controlled manner), which can be at the same time used to teach proper form and naturally transition into a full muscle up.

Once again, it's the classic Crossfit problem: if you do it properly and controlled, it is a nice exercise regimen. According to most anecdotal evidence, a lot of people don't, though.

Edit: retiredcoder also replied with bands etc. to support in the beginning, which is obviously also a good method and, now that I think of it, one I've often seen in my gym. In the same vein, there's usually a pull up machine somewhere in the back that will support you by using a counterweight on the way up, though here you'll have the usual discussion regarding machine/no machine.

One thing to consider when scaling down and up an exercise is to measure progress, kipping is not very precise and usually used to make one achieve arbitrary goals way off ones reach (eg massive ammounts of pull-ups in a short period of time, oh impossible even for elite athletes but with kipping we can get there).

Same goes with handstand push-up with against the wall and that kick up. That’s one of the hardest exercises in gymnastics from my experience, why do one want to do that in a HIIT is beyond me.

As for scaling, I never consider not compromising but actually reinforcing proper form even overthinking it, to prepare one for load and speed (when things tend to go awry). As tools and techniques to scale down, there are bands, eccentrics, Grease the groove, etc.

Ps: you seem to have been downvoted but your question seemed legit to me. I hear that a lot from gym mates

The right progression is breaking the muscle up into its separate components and getting strong at each one individually until you can combine them into one movement and do your first muscle up.

You have to accept that it will be a long time before you can do even one proper muscle up, and most people just aren’t willing to so they kip and tell themselves they can do “muscle ups”.

A lot of bodyweight exercises, muscle ups included, have a strong technique component. Kipping teaches bad habits that you need to unlearn to learn a "real" muscle ups.

Kipping is great when you're competing for maximum reps in a certain amount of time. You should be able to do the strict exercises first, of course, but the point of kipping is for a competitive advantage -- kipping is ridiculously less taxing on the muscles, and makes pull ups / muscle ups more of a cardio contest than pure strength.

Dribbling looks hilarious too, and basketball is supposed to be a passing game[1], but dribbling isn't illegal and gives the player a competitive advantage in the same vein.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dribbling#Basketball

Crossfit is from Santa Cruz and is a combination of a lot of different stuff, the mix of which has changed over time. It's different depending where you go because there has never really been a standardized specific thing that it is and gyms are entirely independent. Gyms license the brand name, there are certification classes run by corporate, there is a very active internet community and something of a consistent philosophy, but what any particular gym actually does as far as training has always varied wildly and that's been from the very beginning.

Whenever I think of CrossFit as a brand/product, BodyPump comes to my mind. The biggest difference for me is how CrossFit managed to scale much bigger and keep popularity among their followers.

I think you're thinking of Pavel Tsatsouline that promoted the kettlebell in the west. Crossfit came much later.

At least to my own experience, I would say, the variation is gym to gym, depending on the instructors background / experience (or lack-of) and less between countries.

It probably depends gym, at least gym where I did go did not do anything super dangerous and it was more powerlifting, bodyweight exercises and some kettlebells exercises. Most dangerous thing was probably box jumps and there instructor advice to step down instead of jumping down.

Well, I have short hamstrings. Which makes squatting a little bit more difficult.

They saw it in CrossFit and suggested a quick-fix. On all the time I fitnessed, they were the only ones that saw it.

Just my 2 cents

Always wondered how one of my friends is uninjured from CrossFit doing it 3 times a week for 10 yrs.

I am guessing he doesn't push himself to the limit.

Supposedly there are (rare) good CrossFit trainers who keep their class safe.

There are plenty of “bad” trainers out there in any field.

And by bad it doesn’t mean they don’t know what they should be doing but rather cave into the demands of their clients that want quick results and to feel the pump.

Just look at how many people go straight into weight lifting with compound exercises without first spending months working on stability, flexibility and burst speed/power.

Then what happens is that they get into a worse state and hit a wall even if they now can bench press 1.5 their body weight.

You would be much better off benching only 100 lbs while being able to stand straight against a wall while keeping your lower back, shoulder blades, elbows and the back of your palm against the wall comfortably throughout a shoulder press.

I’ve literally seen people getting so stiff after “training” for 6 months that I’m not sure if even 2 years of corrective exercises could bring them back to their starting point yet alone to the point where they can start building muscles safely.

And while in the mid 20’s to mid 30’s they might not notice it once they hit their 40’s and couldn’t stand straight because their lats and delts were developed incorrectly and they have no core they sure will.

Supposedly. In personal experience, I've observed an actual 100% fit for people who lack critical thinking skills, or often even general intelligence, and significant Crossfit engagement.

I really do think it is an obviously anti-intellectual consumer cult. I know many people who have tried it and decided it was not reasonable.

Edit:

I think my comment comes across as a generalized put-down, which rubbed people the wrong way and garnered the downvotes.

The experience I shared is truthful. Every single person I know that has really fallen into the Crossfit consumer cult is as far as I can tell a person who proves themselves to be susceptible to morally bankrupt, intellectually inept ideas. All of these people legitimately lack critical thinking skills. That's my own experience.

As far as the actual regime goes, it is pretty-well established to be anti-intellectual and flagrantly dismissive of science. They advertise this.

Yes some very fit people also do it and profit off of it. Some very rich people also promote MLM, which is a consumer cult deserving of similar, but worse criticism.

Should I not be able to criticize people who fall into MLM consumer cults? I think we need to allow criticism.

What about scientology, or other religious cults? What about other anti-intellectual cult of ideas like flat earth, anti-vax or phrenology?

Tell me exactly where the line is drawn, and why.

At least half of the people I've met that regularly do CrossFit are the kind of "anti-intellectual" cult followers who graduated from MIT & are distinguished in their fields, or have Ph.D.s in hard sciences.

Such luddites.

There are a lot of "smart" people that lack critical thinking skills, and whom are also bootlickers willing to ride on the latest bandwagon fad.

Had an acquaintance with a masters in electrical engineering from a prestigious university and worked as a senior research engineer at the R&D labs of a well known cutting edge electronics firm. And I've lost count of the number of weird cults and MLM schemes he's been suckered into.

>Every single person I know that has really fallen into the Crossfit consumer cult is as far as I can tell a person who proves themselves to be susceptible to morally bankrupt, intellectually inept ideas.

Those are probably the vocal ones. Plenty do crossfit and don't harp about it to everyone they meet -- it's just a form of exercise, like running or going for a swim.

great conversation here guys

What would you say about other intentionally anti-intellectual dogmas?

I do think they are worth considering, but also worth criticizing when they're proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be worse than useless.

> worse than useless

what is anyone's goal when partaking in exercise? And how about joining a club? Look at the CrossFit Games winners - do you think they've achieved nothing?

I don't partake in it, for the record. And I do acknowledge that many of the exercises seem ill-advised. But I made an account after like 6 years of lurking to point out that you're being pretty dogmatic in your criticisms of dogmas.

HN throttles your ability to comment if you get downvoted on a couple of comments. I could not reply so I edited my comment above, earlier, to respond to you.

I do think it's blatantly obvious that Crossfit is anti-intellectual consumer cult. They advertise this themselves.

It's a bit much to say every single person who does XFit is stupid, but I was sharing my own observations honestly.

Have you met any MLM people? Would you not say the same? Crossfit intentionally dismisses science and warnings related to potential problems with health and injury. Is that not unethical?

Also, all of my negative Crossfit comments seem to have been hit with the same exact number of downvotes here. I wouldn't expect it, but also wouldn't be surprised if there is some brigaiding here.

100%? I'm interested to hear the reasoning and methods used to arrive at this conclusive statistic.

He's just as morally bankrupt for putting up false statistics.

It is really impossible to say. There are just too many variables to consider here. For example:

Some CrossFit gyms have more offerings than just the traditional WoDs. E.g.: your friend might have be mixing mobility training, strength, cardio workouts.

Also, your friend might have latent injuries or have to stop for a week or so due pain/soreness. It is just you are not aware of those.

Some people are anatomically more fit for certain exercises than others. I'll skip any days with dead lifts because it is an exercise I cannot compromise proper form. So, I protect myself even if for many CF coaches it is just temporary weakness I could improve.

Curiously - have you personally tried it?