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Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by tomcam on Saturday May 11, 2019 @02:23PM (#19887557)
I used to meet with an endless stream of immigrants, legal and not. One thing I noticed was that the ones who used the equivalent of “Immersion“ learning (that is, they simply did not associate with people who spoke your own language) were by far The most positions learners. I witnessed a few people from Poland end up with almost no Polish accent, even though they came to the USA in middle age.

A few years later, I ended up dating a Polish woman who did not know English. I learned become close to conversational within a few weeks, because (sorry, but it is relevant to the story) she was gorgeous.

It turned out that the oldest of motivations proved surprisingly effective for me.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by alchemism on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:43PM (#19888561)
In college, my professor of Japanese, who was a woman, claimed that there was a slang for American (expat) men along the lines of 'screaming homosexuals,' because they (a) spoke loudly and (b) learned the language from their girlfriends and picked up gender-specific grammar and speech patterns in the process.

I did not end up learning Japanese in college as a young man. I've had much better luck twenty years later, indirectly following her advice, by learning Greek through falling in love.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by koreth1 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @10:40PM (#19889785)
This is true in Mandarin too, to some extent. A bunch of my casual speech patterns come from talking to my wife and I've had Chinese friends say, "You are talking like a girl." I am always happy to hear them say it because (a) if nobody tells me, I'm probably never going to figure it out on my own, and (b) "You are talking like a (Chinese) girl" is a compliment compared to, "You are talking like a foreigner."
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by yorwba on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:11AM (#19891419)
You might be mispronouncing the alveolo-palatal consonants (Pinyin j, q, x) as denti-alveolars (Pinyin z, c, s), which is common among foreigners whose native languages lack alveolo-palatals, since it's hard to figure out how to correctly curl your tongue without an explicit description.

The reason that would make your speech appear feminine is that some young Beijing women pronounce those consonants similarly, probably in a (potentially unconscious) attempt to sound cute. The closest analog in English I can think of is swapping word-initial l for w ("wuv", "widdle").

The phenomenon in Chinese is known as 女国音; I became aware of it through the talk page of the Wikipedia article on Standard Chinese phonology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Standard_Chinese_phonolog...

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by gridlockd on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:20PM (#19889008)
It's worth noting that Japanese (like many Asian languages) has a certain degree of "sexual dimorphism" unlike western languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_spoken_J...

Interestingly, it also has pitch as a part of accent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pitch_accent

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by geomark on Saturday May 11, 2019 @09:49PM (#19889587)
That's pretty funny. Similarly in Thailand, the Thai language has gender-specific pronouns and speech patterns. LGBT people are very out in Thailand and many LGBT foreigners attracted to the country as a result. So when a foreigner who may have learned some Thai language from their Thai girlfriend/boyfriend uses trans-gender pronouns or speech patterns nobody bats an eye and just assumes they are trans, even though they may not be.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by cblum on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:21PM (#19887915)
I’m Brazilian but I’ve had people think I’m American since I’ve lost most of my accent. It’s funny though that when I’m tired my accent shows up.

I do the immersion thing without even calling it so. My view is that if I’m living in another country, I should integrate and learn the culture. I stopped associating with Brazilians who were only interested in staying within a Brazilian bubble doing Brazilian things. Might as well just go back to Brazil if that’s what you want to do.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by filoleg on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:09PM (#19888685)
Just wanted to echo this. Moved from Russia to Atlanta, and did not go out of my way to do the whole immigrant community thing (unlike what a lot of my parents and their friends did). 9 years later, living on West Coast now, and I definitely attribute my proficiency in English to not joining the Russian expat community. Meanwhile, there are people I personally know who were BORN in the US in one of those communities, and they barely speak more than just the very basics, despite their community not being an isolated one at all.

P.S. still have an accent, but it has been getting much better, and almost no one manages to guess where it comes from correctly. Heavy majority of the guesses go in the direction of Scandinavian countries :)

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by barry-cotter on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:26PM (#19889037)
> Meanwhile, there are people I personally know who were BORN in the US in one of those communities, and they barely speak more than just the very basics, despite their community not being an isolated one at all.

Really? Outside of communities that educate their children in their own language second generation children everywhere generally end up fluent speakers of the language of instruction, even in communities where their home language speakers are a plurality or majority of a school population. You do see Indian and Chinese kids in Silicon Valley with accents intermediate between FOB and more general Californian but they speak English perfectly.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by tomcam on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:52PM (#19889403)
Yes, really. I grew up in a Mexican neighborhood and can give you the names of people whose families have been here for generations and barely speak any English. Same with the Russian communities in Chicago and Long Island.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by airstrike on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:42PM (#19888011)
I have the exact same experience, though I starting learning English at a young age. Out of the 100+ Brazilians I met in Business School, I was the only one who was interested in hanging out with non-Brazilians.

There's a reason I left Brazil, and it mostly has to do with wanting to live in a better culture.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by cblum on Sunday May 12, 2019 @01:37AM (#19890348)
> There's a reason I left Brazil, and it mostly has to do with wanting to live in a better culture.

Same. Plus the insane violence.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by aidenn0 on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:30AM (#19890158)
My grandmother is from Rhode Island, which has a very distinctive accent; she put a lot of effort into getting rid of it and I could always tell as a kid when she was mad because her accent snuck back in.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by byw on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:18PM (#19888150)
Don't know if this is common, but when I'm tired my accent sort of turns British. Seems North American accent requires more effort.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by cblum on Sunday May 12, 2019 @01:38AM (#19890355)
Yeah, the rhotic thing is the first thing that goes when I get tired. I fall back to rolling my r's though, instead of making them soft like in British English.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by maxxxxx on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:12PM (#19888414)
"I’m Brazilian but I’ve had people think I’m American"

I am German and I often get asked if I am Irish :-)

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by mav3rick on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:48PM (#19888314)
I get that. But isn't this some kind of reverse bias ? What if a genuinely good Brazilian wants to be your friend ? You're precluding them based on their nationality.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by rat9988 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:53PM (#19888336)
"Brazilians who were only interested in staying within a Brazilian bubble doing Brazilian things."

I don't think he treats random brazilian differently, just that he isn't seeking a brazilian community.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by ilyaeck on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:21PM (#19888453)
Why apologize for admitting the woman was gorgeous, as if it was improper? :) If anything, not acknowledging someone is gorgeous - when one actually is - should be improper. Beauty matters - always did, always will. Instead of pretending it doesn't, let's celebrate it!
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by throwaway2016a on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:34PM (#19888232)
I wonder if that is why Americans have so much trouble. It is really hard to immerse yourself when everyone speaks (or tries to speak) English.

I went to South Korea for a business meeting and spent 6 months prior trying to learn Korean. Funny thing is that when I got there everyone I met wanted to take the opportunity to speak English with a native speaker and I rarely got to use it. Good thing too... I would have sounded like I have the literacy of a small child.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by koreth1 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @10:43PM (#19889799)
My sister lived in a medium-sized city in the Netherlands for several years and tried hard to learn Dutch, and found it super frustrating. I saw this myself when I visited her there. She would start off speaking Dutch with someone and they'd respond in Dutch until the moment she made even the slightest most insignificant mistake in her speech, at which point they would invariably switch to English and refuse to speak another syllable of Dutch to her.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by X6S1x6Okd1st on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:53PM (#19888329)
Living in Korea as a male native English speaker I found the best practice I usually had was with Older women and young women who were too embarrassed about their English skills to even try.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by Al-Khwarizmi on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:33PM (#19888225)
In my anecdotal experience, Polish people are especially gifted at picking up languages. I know several Polish people from different contexts that acquired a very good level of Spanish in a ridiculous amount of time, even some that picked it up from TV without any formal education and could speak with me just fine.

I think it may have to do with their language having a quite large inventory of phonemes (I have the feeling that learning new phonemes is one of the main factors in making a new language difficult to learn), but who knows.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by mamon on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:05PM (#19888668)
Actually, I, as a native Polish speaker have a hard time learning English pronunciation because the phonems are much different from the ones I am used to. Languages like Spanish and Italian are much easier for us, because all the basic sounds are quite similar, no challenge here. Also, Polish have pretty rich grammar, with all those declension and conjugation rules that are also present in Spanish. It makes it easier to learn the language because at least you have a firm grasp of the concept, even if the details (like the actual suffixes used) are different.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by pacaro on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:24PM (#19888745)
In French I believe that this is known as the “école horizontale”.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by ASalazarMX on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:03PM (#19888918)
My, what an unfortunate educational domain name then https://www.horizontaleducation.com
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by thanatropism on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:36PM (#19888523)
How did you evaluate your "close to conversational"? Polish is notoriously hard to learn. You might have been intelligible due to intimacy but not to a random fluent speaker.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by tomcam on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:57PM (#19889417)
I realized it when I was speaking in another language without knowing it, and when her friends started talking to me in Polish instead of English.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by MaxBarraclough on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:27PM (#19887954)
> I witnessed a few people from Poland end up with almost no Polish accent, even though they came to the USA in middle age.

I presume you mean they spoke no English before they moved to the USA. I recently read Steven Pinker's book The Language Instinct, which left me with the impression that what you describe is impossible, and that adults are never able to learn a language to 'native' proficiency. This article seems to refute that.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by betaby on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:48PM (#19888033)
The Language Instinct is a 'weak' book. There is a plenty of criticism for arguments against universal grammar (the idea behind the book).
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by garmaine on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:51PM (#19888046)
The language instinct is bogus, refuted by multiple recent articles. Sorry you’ll have to undo learning a bunch of false info from it :(
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by mjollnir on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:09PM (#19888122)
I'm not sure it's that cut and dry, nor that any learning needs to be "undone". The study itself (referenced in this article) is co-authored by Pinker, and these ideas take time and research to develop.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by garmaine on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:54PM (#19888340)
There was never any evidence to support the critical period theory. It was poor statistics from the very beginning.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by sjy on Saturday May 11, 2019 @10:44PM (#19889800)
The authors of the study under discussion explicitly claim (in the abstract even) that "the results support the existence of a sharply-defined critical period for language acquisition." You should address that argument (or cite the other "recent articles" that refute it), rather than simply dismissing it as poor statistics.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by garmaine on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:37AM (#19890181)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3723803/

http://www.asian-efl-journal.com/March_2002_EBook_editions.p...

^ Basically the above study, sponsored by the NIH, found that when you correct for all relevant factors the critical period signal not only disappears but becomes anti-correlated: kids have a HARDER time in all aspects of language learning than adults, when the same level of interest and effort is applied.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by dragonwriter on Sunday May 12, 2019 @12:46AM (#19890203)
So we've not only confirmed that children have an advantage, but we've identified the nature of the advantage: it's easier for them to muster both interest and effort, to the extent that this outweighs the disadvantages they have outside of those areas.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by garmaine on Sunday May 12, 2019 @07:30PM (#19895293)
Yeah but there’s nothing physiological or neurological there, which is what the critical period hypothesis is predicting. It’s just the reality of childhood in an immersion environment.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by dragonwriter on Sunday May 12, 2019 @08:21PM (#19895521)
> Yeah but there’s nothing physiological or neurological there

That's, IMO, an unwarranted (and, taken strictly, almost implausible) assumption. (Especially on the interest side.)

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by TomMarius on Sunday May 12, 2019 @02:33AM (#19890516)
I personally saw a person in their 50's to learn English to fluency with no accent. It is possible.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by misiti3780 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:27PM (#19887951)
The US government says it takes 1100 hours (44 weeks) to learn Polish:

https://www.state.gov/m/fsi/sls/c78549.htm

What methods did you use to shave off ~40 weeks that are required for normal people to learn the language ?

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by dahart on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:42PM (#19888010)
> What methods did you use to shave off ~40 weeks

That seems slightly presumptuous and sounds slightly accusatory... It’s not like it takes 44 weeks before you can say a single word in another language. The comment said “conversational”, and the page you linked said “professional working proficiency”. Is it surprising at all if those are two completely different criteria? This is data for their own course, which is based on class hours, not on full-immersion living with a native speaker. The top of the page also stresses the words “usually” and “average”, and goes out of the way to make clear that it can vary wildly.

Try any of the decent language learning audio courses and you’ll see it’s not hard to have basic conversations in a matter of weeks. I’ve used Pimsleur for several languages. I wouldn’t call myself proficient or even conversational, but it’s been enough to communicate abroad and occasionally impress a native speaker.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by RobLach on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:19PM (#19888156)
That’s for state department level professional proficiency. I wouldn’t be surprised if most Americans aren’t at that level for English.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by SllX on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:36PM (#19887995)
Conversational < Fluent < Fluent & Literate

There’s no magic threshold where you’ve “learned” the language, simply different points at which you are able to express yourself more accurately and in greater detail and keep up with the conversation.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by close04 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:52PM (#19888052)
The problem is "conversational" means anything from "hello", "how are you", "my name is", "the horse is on the window" [%] to an actual conversation that can convey something useful.

Between a reasonable degree of grammar correctness, some vocabulary, and the pronunciation needed to make yourself understood it takes some time to carry out any conversation beyond tourist level.

Given that I have plenty of polish friends and contact with the language the "few weeks" is either an exaggeration or, more likely, the bar for "close to conversational" is set relatively low and differs from other people's definition leading to this discussion. Unless it's someone who already speaks a language that's "close enough", maybe czech?

[%] Actual example used by my french teacher a few decades ago.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by Sharlin on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:36PM (#19888524)
> "the horse is on the window"

Obligatory Eddie Izzard: Learning French [1]

[1] https://youtu.be/x1sQkEfAdfY

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by close04 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @05:52PM (#19888600)
You're right, my french teacher was using "the chair is on the window", my brain mixed Eddie Izzard into it :D.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by tomcam on Saturday May 11, 2019 @11:47PM (#19890017)
Yep. Carefully avoided the word fluent, which was never in question!
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by tomcam on Saturday May 11, 2019 @08:58PM (#19889425)
By literally walking around with two language books all the time and looking up every single word or phrase before I used it. By having a smoking hot girlfriend. By consciously trying to pronounce every word in perfect BBC Polish.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by pen2l on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:01PM (#19888094)
I'm surprised that list puts French in category 1, and German in category 2. Would have expected it to be the other way around.

In my experiences, learning French well is more difficult than people think, German not as much.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by barry-cotter on Saturday May 11, 2019 @07:31PM (#19889058)
Spelling aside French isn’t really more difficult than Spanish. Neither language is terribly difficult when you compare it to Hebrew, Arabic, Russian or Japanese but German grammar is definitely more complex than French and that’s where most of the difficulty is in Category 1 and 2 languages, not the phoneme inventory or vocabulary, with their masses of cognates with English.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by ThrustVectoring on Saturday May 11, 2019 @06:18PM (#19888728)
Due to the Norman conquest of England in 1066 there's a good chunk of vocabulary overlap, particularly for the more formal and technical words likely to be used in State Department contexts.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by marviel on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:34PM (#19887990)
Given his insinuations, it seems like a strong infatuation helped as a motivator
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by s_m_t on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:41PM (#19888007)
More likely its bullshit or the poster just didn't have a good view of his own skills.
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by marviel on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:24PM (#19888183)
Quite possible -- was just pointing out what the poster had claimed was a differentiating factor, as requested
Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by lorriman on Saturday May 11, 2019 @03:52PM (#19888048)
Aquisition/immersion learning is rapid. Thegovernment metrics are likely based on academic learning methods.

Forget the books and turn on the radio and TV instead.

Re:Adults learn language to fluency nearly as well as childr... by misiti3780 on Saturday May 11, 2019 @04:35PM (#19888241)
it really depends on what languages you already know, but i think you need to use both, and not starting with a book would probably be the most inefficient way to learn a new language.

if you already know spanish or italian, learning french is a lot easier because a lot of the verbs are the same and conjugations follow the same patterns

i know english, italian, a decent amount of french now, and if I am trying to learn arabic, starting with just radio and tv seems backwards to me