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Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by FerretFred on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:31AM (#19728957)
"Recycling is NOT the answer. The answer is to stop making the endless flow of single use plastic."

And the manufacturers/retailers need to stop claiming that they are only responding to "market demand" - in numerous decades of buying stuff, no-one has ever asked me what my packaging preferences are. There'll come a time when we can't recycle our way out of our own mess - what will be Big Pollutions smug solution be then?

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by mrob on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:16AM (#19729445)
I eat a lot of frozen vegetables. This is less wasteful than fresh, because I can buy them in bulk and store them for several months. With fresh vegetables I'd have to make two or three journeys a week. Additionally, a lot of fresh vegetables rot in the supply chain.

I demand my frozen vegetables are packaged in plastic bags. This is the standard packaging for good reason. There is no other material that combines the flexibility, lightness, and waterproofness of plastic. Plastic bags are not easily recyclable, but very little material is needed to make one. I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff to send a few grams of plastic to landfill (where the carbon stays out of the atmosphere), or burn it for energy recovery, to avoid spending far more fossil fuel on transport and wasted production.

Banning plastic packaging without thinking about the consequences will do more harm than good.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by dbcurtis on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @12:57PM (#19730488)
≥ I demand my frozen vegetables are packaged in plastic bags.

Paper boxes are perfectly suitable for frozen veg. They stack perfectly. Less flexible, I'll give you that. But a compostable box versus plastic seems like a win to me.

I suspect the reason manufacturers and grocers like plastic is that in a paper box, poor handling is dead obvious, because if the produce partially thaws in transit the box gets damp and is a telltale for poor temperature control.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by jdietrich on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:26PM (#19730821)
>Paper boxes are perfectly suitable for frozen veg.

Only if you coat the inside with plastic, thereby making the paper non-recyclable.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by organsnyder on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:55PM (#19731105)
There are biodegradable coatings that allow the paper to still be compostable.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by Spivak on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @02:50PM (#19731604)
If this caught on wouldn't the article be in 5 years "Just 10% of U.S. paper products are composted?" Is the problem really the material or is is the fact that it's single use.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by winter_blue on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @01:34PM (#19740820)
I once had some frozen foods delivered to me in a paper/cardboard box. There was ice around the frozen food, and it had melted partially, and the water had made the bottom of the cardboard box soft and mushy. When I lifted the cardboard box, its bottom tore, and my frozen foods started poking out. A plastic-like bag would not have tore due to wetness/water, would have been be a lot thinner, lighter, and not required any dead trees to make. If it were biodegradable, there no major environmental concerns either.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by jolmg on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @04:20PM (#19732426)
Paper boxes are also single-use and meant to be recycled, aren't they? This subthread is about how recycling is not enough and how we need to switch to reusable packaging.

Instead of paper boxes, it would be nice if it became the norm to go into stores with our own containers to put our food in instead of using store-provided, single-use packaging. It's ok if they're plastic as long as they're intended and made to be used and reused for years.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by bobthepanda on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @01:34AM (#19735818)
IIRC a problem with this is bacteria; bacteria can hang around in reusable bags.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by jolmg on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @02:18PM (#19741306)
Yes, reusability means that we need to clean more stuff. We won't be able to just throw out dirty stuff anymore.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by jdsully on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @04:28PM (#19732493)
The paper boxes are bio degradable. A major difference.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by ardfie on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @12:04PM (#19729909)
I can buy frozen vegetables and fish at the supermarket, which are packaged only in paper boxes (no plastic inside). For example : https://www.vomar.nl/g-woon-Tuinerwten-Extra-Fijn-450-g
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by blacksmith_tb on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @02:02PM (#19731157)
Not sure about the EU market, in the US most paper or cardboard packaging for use with frozen or refrigerated foods is hard to recycle[1].

1: https://earth911.com/food/frozen-food-box-recycling/

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by telesilla on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:21PM (#19730761)
I get my frozen vegetables in cardboard boxes and they keep fine. They definitely don't need to be in plastic. Plus they stack: extra bonus for a clean-looking freezer.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by 8bitsrule on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:56PM (#19735157)
The bags being made by the process in the cited article are specifically designed to be quickly recycleable ... eliminating the 'worthwhile tradeoff' in the event of sensible, defendable policy.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by onion2k on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:39AM (#19729658)
Banning plastic would mean you'd need to buy more fresh vegetables, which would reduce the amount that's wasted now. It would also encourage you to plan your trips more efficiently (eg shop somewhere closer to home).
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by cbhl on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @12:20PM (#19730071)
I feel like banning the sale of fresh vegetables would do a whole lot more to reduce waste.

Every grocery store talks about "shrink" in their Form 10K. They buy extra fruits, vegetables, and meat so that the consumer has a full shelf or display to select from. XX% of that goes unsold, gets processed into prepared food (chopped fruits/vegetables, etc.), and then what's unsold from that gets tossed or donated.

Farmer's Markets have shrink too -- and the lack of climate control means that spoilage happens on the order of days, rather than weeks.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by mrob on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:46AM (#19729729)
>Banning plastic would mean you'd need to buy more fresh vegetables, which would reduce the amount that's wasted now.

It would not. If I (and frozen vegetable buyers in general) switch to buying fresh vegetables, the market will increase production of fresh vegetables to compensate.

>shop somewhere closer to home

I already shop as close to home as possible.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by bunderbunder on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:41AM (#19729063)
Well, the market demand is driven more by what sells than by what people say if you ask them. And there's a reason for that: When you ask people how they'll behave, they'll give you an answer that reflects their aspirations as much as it does their actual behavior.

Possible scenario: People will tell you they prefer low-waste packaging when you ask them in a survey. But when they're at a store trying to pick out an item, they still end up perceiving the item in the small paper box as being lower quality than the one in the giant clear plastic clamshell whose contents are clearly visible. So, regardless of what they said they prefer, in reality they might still tend to go for the high-waste packaging.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by FerretFred on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:02AM (#19729292)
I'm old enough to remember when breakfast cereal came in cardboard outer boxes with the product in a waxed paper bag inside, so the product was still visible. I don't believe that was recyclable (and back then we didn't do that anyway) but nowadays it could probably be burnt as fuel.

The worst packaging I ever saw was a chicken curry and rice meal in 2 compartments, each covered in non-recyclable clear film. In addition, the rice container was non-recyclable while the chicken container was (!) We now hear statements that black plastic containers are not always recyclable, so maybe I should have just thrown the whole lot in the garbage anyway...

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by justin66 on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @03:09PM (#19731804)
With the recent improvements in China's waste management, and the concomitant crackdown on "recycling" imports, my local recycling services here in the midwest have advised people not to recycle such black plastic, regardless of the recycling number on the plastic.

In a way it's a shame, in a way it's an annoyance, but realistically it seems possible only a fraction of that black plastic was ever truly being recycled anyway.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by frankbreetz on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:48AM (#19729147)
This is true, this is why the government must be the answer here. They can tax things to help with the cost of properly disposing of single-use plastic or they can outright ban them. This would make the market more realistic because the cost would include disposal of the items.

People, in general, are bad at long term thinking, and they aren't going to pour hours of research into what type of packaging they are going to use. People also think that their singular actions are not going to have that much effect on the bigger picture. While this may be true, everyone cannot think this way.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by jdietrich on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:41PM (#19730981)
>They can tax things to help with the cost of properly disposing of single-use plastic or they can outright ban them. This would make the market more realistic because the cost would include disposal of the items.

That cost is, depending on the market, about $80/tonne. Pricing in the cost of disposal would add about 0.04 cents to the cost of a plastic bag and 0.24 cents to the price of a large bottle of soda.

Plastic is not a problem. It has never been a problem and it never will be a problem. Eliminating plastic packaging is at best a complete waste of time and at worst totally counter-productive.

Climate change is a catastrophe; we have already passed the point of no return, and can now only choose how severe that catastrophe will be.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/studies/pdf/eucostwast...

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2e935b...

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by frankbreetz on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @02:11PM (#19731250)
Then one must ask why are we not responsibly getting rid of our plastic?

Why is there plastic in every corner of the planet[0]?

Why is there trash covered islands that humans don't live on and should be pristine[1]?

Maybe banning plastics is not the answer and responsible disposal is the correct answer, but there is currently a very large plastics problem that must be addressed.

[0]https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47947235

[1]https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2017/05/15/henderson-i...

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by RobertoG on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:55AM (#19729217)
".. they still end up perceiving the item in the small paper box as being lower quality than the one in the giant clear plastic .."

You are right, but I suppose you mean "we", like in "we the people".

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by jhawk28 on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:42AM (#19729085)
They ask you every time you purchase something. If you don't like the plastic. Put your money where your interests are. Buy the glass bottle, ask for the paper bag. If you can't get it in that form, these things don't need to be purchased. "Market demand" is exactly how they are asking what preferences are.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by bunderbunder on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:49AM (#19729165)
> Buy the glass bottle

Maybe go for the aluminum can instead. In the age of single-stream recycling, glass doesn't get recycled all that much more than plastic does. (Some sources suggest it gets recycled even less.) Worse, it tends to render other materials unrecyclable when it shatters and contaminates them with shards.

Also, the can weighs less, which means less pollution incidental to transportation.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by smileysteve on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:24AM (#19729516)
While glass has recently stopped being recycled, and the transportation costs are concern, it's worth considering that glass is the most naturally recyclable of the 3 materials;

I sometimes wonder if i should crush all of my glass bottle before tossing them in the trash; or to "recycle" them more quickly, drop them somewhere in deep water; though I suppose if it were near a continental shelf, it would be even better.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by tshannon on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @02:00PM (#19731143)
I wonder if you could market a glass crushing / grinding appliance that you could keep in your garage.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by galangalalgol on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:14AM (#19729422)
Interesting! Also I have always wondered why we don't recycle styrofoam. You can dissolve it in all sorts of solvents, filter it and then evaporate and reclaim the solvent.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by bunderbunder on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:36AM (#19729630)
Expanded polystyrene is, by design, a very lightweight and flimsy material. And the very fact that it's so flimsy, and also typically used in food containers, is why nobody wants to use it: it tends to be horribly contaminated with foreign material, and is difficult to effectively clean. I'm not sure there's much of a market for a post-consumer material that consists of a mix of polystyrene and uneaten cheese.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by Nasrudith on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:22AM (#19729504)
Well for one styrofoam is neither dense nor valueable so even if said solvent stew approach could work without cleaning and filtering economically (not a given) hauling a bunch of styrofoam wouldn't be all that efficient compared to even glass let alone aluminum.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:45AM (#19729107)
Is glass a viable alternative? It costs a lot more energy to produce than single-use plastic. It can be reused, but that requires an infrastructure of collection and cleaning. It can (and is) be (being) infinitely recycled, but that costs a lot of energy as well.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by yvdriess on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:27AM (#19729547)
Glass bottles can avoid the 'trash' stream with 'bottle bill' legislation. Most of europe does this, some even for PET and aluminium cans. Collection is essentially the same route as delivery to the cusomers, but in reverse: the customer brings it back to the shop. The bottling plants eventually bring in their output. It's more economically all around than re-flowing the glass bottles. I know that Belgian brewers lean heavily on reused green and brown bottles. In this case, it helps that there are a few near-universal beer bottle types, but perhaps that's more a result of the reuse.

Some music festivals use '10 empty plastic cups = 1 free drink' to reduce the amount of single-use plastic trash laying around. It's simple economics.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by distances on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @05:34PM (#19733127)
> some even for PET and aluminium cans.

Aluminium cans are some of the best items to be recycled, as recycling one takes only 5% of the energy needed for creating one anew. This should be reflected as a higher deposit of course, to get high return rates. I think Finland achieves nowadays over 95% return rate for aluminium cans.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by rootusrootus on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:49AM (#19729166)
I like glass, but seems like the market has spoken on that one. We used to recycle (reuse, really) glass soda bottles back in the 70s and 80s. The bottles get ugly after a while, so people prefer fresh new ones. Today we still struggle to get above 50% recycling on glass, though it has been increasing over time.

Might be better to switch to aluminum. The recycling system appears more advanced.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by ip26 on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:18AM (#19729461)
With the industrial & urban styles currently popular (exposed building hardware, ripped jeans) you'd think worn bottles would be chic.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by nicpottier on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:50AM (#19729762)
In the US we may have spoken but the situation has also changed, so perhaps it is time to speak again? The market may not have realized the implications and externalities of switching to plastic for say all beverages.

I for one would welcome a switch back to reusable soda and beer bottles that were collected. (see Oregon bottle deposits)

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by foobiekr on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:53AM (#19729192)
BPA coatings make aluminum problematic.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:59AM (#19729263)
https://www.packagingdigest.com/food-packaging/most-food-can... (Most food cans no longer use BPA in their linings)

> At least 90% of today’s food cans have replaced linings that previously contained the controversial chemical bisphenol-A (BPA), according to the Can Manufacturers Institute. This is in reaction to market demands for more options in food safety.

> Food can linings now are typically made from acrylic and polyester. And all new materials are extensively tested and are cleared by regulatory agencies before being sold in the market. Linings are necessary to prevent the can from corroding, provide a barrier to bacteria and maintain food quality.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by gnicholas on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @12:55PM (#19730450)
I was under the impression that many producers simply switched from BPA to BPS, and that this may not be any better for our health: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bpa-free-plastic-...

I admit I've not researched the topic much, and would love to learn that safer materials are used now.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by bunderbunder on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @11:25AM (#19729526)
Looking at the big picture:

Available research has left us with a reasonable idea of the bounds on BPA toxicity, and seems to indicate that, in the amounts you get from modern cans, the effect, while non-zero, is probably quite small, possibly to the point of being negligible in the grand scheme of things.

For example, the bacteria and yeast that ferment food also tend to produce all sorts of known carcinogens and toxins. I'd personally expect the fermentation by-products present in my sauerkraut to have a much bigger effect on my health than the BPA that's used to line the can it's packaged in. That seems to be borne out in the science, too, insofar as the health risks associated with eating pickles are readily observable in humans at normal consumption levels, but it seems to take obscenely large megadoses of BPA to make a lab rat sick.

Available research has also left us with a reasonable idea of the health impact of air pollution, including from diesel truck exhaust. And I would guess that the health impact from the extra air pollution produced in shipping heavier glass containers instead of lighter aluminum ones is greater than that of the BPA dose you'd get from cans' linings.

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by yvdriess on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:27PM (#19730835)
BPA is an Endocrine/hormone disruptor, these are not harmful due to toxicity. They do not follow a simple dose-responce as in, say, carcinogens. Some studies even show a higher effect at lower doses of BPA for instance.
Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by jdietrich on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @01:44PM (#19730998)
>Is glass a viable alternative?

No. It's worse than plastic, even if the bottles are re-used rather than recycled.

http://www.wrap.org.uk/sites/files/wrap/Final%20Report%20Doo...

Re:Just 10% of U.S. plastic gets recycled. A new kind of pla... by rootusrootus on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @10:46AM (#19729120)
Giving up altogether on a product you need just because it's packaged in a way you don't agree with is not a workable solution. Choosing between otherwise similar products is viable, though.