I don't know what your Honda experience has been, but for a very competitive price you can buy an insanely reliable car that you will probably become bored with before you need to replace (so long as you change the oil regularly)

Nobody is mentioning the tax credit either..

Meh. To me cars are an unpleasant necessity. I dislike driving, I'm constantly either bored or stressed, or both. Driving in Bay Area is even more unpleasant than less dense places. To park it, I either pay what would be rent on a studio elsewhere or drive around a half an hour a night looking for a spot at which I may come back to a busted window.

So when buying a car, I look for cheap and reliable, less likely to be victimized, definitely used (why pay for a smell?), with enough space to move the crap that requires the vehicle in the first place.

Point being, this is one reason those Hondas sell. I could buy a Tesla, but the idea of dumping a bunch of money on something I don't enjoy is about as attractive to me as buying a designer platinum drain snake.

Honda makes gas cars which can be filled up in 5 minutes from tens of thousands of gas stations across the US. It is not Tesla vs Honda it is electric vs ICE.

You can’t charge a Honda at home, and that with a 200+ mile range covers the vast majority of usage. And then when you do need to drive 200+ miles in a day, which for most people is a handful of days a year, you can use chargers which add 100 miles in 10 minutes. The extent of the charging network is really the only major issue left. It depends on your use case, for an urban, suburban setting or as a second car it’s more convenient, not less.

I have Tesla and use Superchargers. It’s 7.00 for 100 miles and it takes 30 minutes not 10 and they are usually full so I have to wait. We use our gas car for road trips and skiing. The supercharger wait times up to mammoth are 2+ hours.

Think it’s 130 miles in 10 minutes at maximum for the long range model 3 with the v3 charger. It's a 10 minutes break every 2 hours, not an issue for most people. The big remaining issue is the availability of charging points.

> You can’t charge a Honda at home

Honda Clarity begs to differ.

> And then when you do need to drive 200+ miles in a day, which for most people is a handful of days a year, you can use chargers which add 100 miles in 10 minutes.

Not as good as a "charger" (Gas Station) that adds 300 miles in 2 minutes.

I’m talking about EV’s in general, Honda Clarity is another decent example.

If your car always starts each day with 250 miles range, stopping to charge outside of the house is a rare ocurrence. Having a break for 20 minutes rather than 5 minutes after 3 hours of driving, a handful of times each year, isn’t my idea of a dealbreaker.

The big problem as I say is the extent of the network, especially in rural areas. Most of the adoption over the next 5-10 years will likely be in cities and suburbs.

Depends. My family always stops at a particular location in Virginia whenever we travel south (or back north) on vacations. Its literally a family tradition. There's no Supercharger close by, but plenty of gas stations.

To go pure electric would mean giving up this yearly family tradition for our summer road-trips. We'd have to change the stop to fit the car (ie: find a new spot closer to a supercharger). That's definitely not worth the hassle.

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We stop for 30+ minutes by the way for food and mental breaks while driving. But the LOCATION we stop at could be a national park, a mall, little towns we've grown to love, etc. etc.

A few of those locations DO have superchargers. But the majority of them do NOT. As such, a pure electric car would force us to give up family road-trip traditions.

> I’m talking about EV’s in general, Honda Clarity is another decent example.

Honda Clarity has 47 mile all-electric range, and 300-mile range on the gas generator. It can perpetually exist on gasoline. But typical day trips to and from work can likely be within the all-electric range.

It won't go onto gas-generator mode unless the battery gets low. Something like this vehicle would work for my family.

Yeah, I see your point, this is I suppose about what is called the destination charger network. This is a last mile situation with a lot of capital needed to build out a full network, which will make it more difficult for Tesla when competing with open standard charging networks. In Europe it looks a lot better, because the model 3 can use any CCS charger. I think we’ll end up with a few percentage points of all parking spots having 10-50kW chargers, especially for places where people tend to stop off on journeys. It’s starting to happen, but is a long way off what’s needed. It will be a lot easier in some places than others because of geography and population density. In some places plug in hybrids will undoubtedly be an important part of the market for a long time.

Where I am, 300 miles will get you almost across the country, so it’s a different calculation from yours!

I can and do gas up my honda at home.

Lower prices? Cars geared toward the Everyman.

This is a big part of it. Tesla marketed their new lowend "$35K" Model 3 option but even that's them covering up the real price is $45k up front. Depending on where you live, you may get $5k back in tax credits the next year and then they throw on a $5k gas savings estimate bullshit which is ridiculous. It isn't until you click the see details button in their order system that you see the true price.

That's $45k somebody has to take a loan for and pay a higher monthly payment for than the supposed "$35k after savings!". The savings are complete and utter lie. After you pay interest on that $10k extra you borrowed you lose.

If you buy the car outright in cash, sure, you'll see a savings. But that percentage of the population able to afford such a purchase is small and dwindling.

> Tesla marketed their new lowend "$35K" Model 3 option but even that's them covering up the real price is $45k up front.

No it's not. The Standard Range Model 3 is $35K up front and $27k with their (ridiculous) estimated savings.

No. Please get your facts straight!

The $35k Tesla is $35k before any rebates or savings are taken into account.

The $35k Tesla has a price after estimated savings of $24,450 in Massachusetts.

$24,450

$6,250 of that savings is in the form of a $3,750 tax credit and a $2,500 check.

So even if you factor in zero fuel cost savings the purchase price after rebates is $28,750.

Stunningly inexpensive for an EV. This is lower TCO than Accord or Camry.

what's the rest of the estimated savings?

Estimated fuel savings from the 126mpge rating.

See: https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-fuel-savings-calculator...

as a person who drives 5K miles/yr and usually buys fuel in a state that isn't NY or CA, estimated fuel savings are always amusing.

Please show where you came up with the $45K price. On https://www.tesla.com/model3/design, a black RWD standard range Model 3 with no options is exactly $35,000 (or "$26,950 after savings").

Honda is well known by non car/tech people. My grandparents would buy a Honda because it has a reputation that Tesla doesn't have at this point.

After a few years of people seeing them around, and them appearing in reliability surveys etc, that may change.

Although with their dealership/internet only sales plan up in the air at the moment, that still may not make a difference, because I still can't see my grandparents buying a car off the internet.

Another major benefit of Honda and Toyota is that I can use any service shop I want. They usually always have the necessary parts, and I can shop around to get the best price. With a BMW, Audi or a pricier high-end brand, the service costs are a lot higher. With Tesla, I don't even know if you can get them serviced outside an official Tesla center. That's a no-go for me.

Tesla is not anywhere near Honda in reliability. So no, that will not change anytime soon.

This is about deliveries, not demand. They still have a large backlog of orders, and they haven't even entered the European market yet.

Model 3 isn't back ordered. When I was ordering mine last week everything showed a 2-week delivery date(mid-range, long range, performance). After ordering I picked mine up two days later. Later after reading the Tesla forums, I could have called up Tesla and got a discount on the car if they had it sitting in inventory since they are trying to move inventory.

Ok, but doesn’t that just mean they’re not backlogged on the middle and high trims? They only just released the low end model, I can’t really see how those orders could have been fulfilled. Although it seems to be up for debate whether they’re able to make the low end model without a loss.

They started delivery of the Model 3 in Europe in February. But Tesla's cars are quite a bit too bulky for many European countries, where Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe dominate sales.

LOL... do you live in Europe?

The model 3 is (to within a couple of cm) the same size and class as the Audi A4 and BMW 3-series. And I can assure you that they are very very common cars here.

Likewise, the X is similar to (say) the Audi Q7, the BMW X5, and the Porsche Cayenne, and again, those are pretty common.

The most common size in France (where I'm originally from) is the B-segment: Renault Clio, Citroën C3, etc. So 4.1~4.2 meters in length and 1.7~1.8 meters in width. Model 3 is much longer: 4.7 meter in length and quite a bit larger at 1.9~2 meter in width. Don't get me wrong, BMW 3-series or Audi A4 are not rare in France, but it's not the mass market.

So I don't have the beginning of a clue as to why you are laughing. If you are French then you probably live in an affluent neighborhood. I suspect you live in a different country with different car habits.

Just wanted to confirm what you are saying, that is that the standard-ish car size in Europe is represented by the models you mentioned: the Clio, the Citroen C3, I'll add the VW Polo, Skoda Fabia or Seat Ibiza, cars like Audi A4 or BMW Series 3 are seen as large-ish.

is there any evidence they still have a backlog?? Seems like the only backlog left is countries they just began delivering to or haven't started deliveries there yet..no one knows how big that backlog is

No, there is no evidence of a backlog, outside of certain trims. The model 3 SR still has a backlog, by virtue of not having been made yet.

In Ontario Canada there are real wait times that are over a month for long range and AWD options for Model 3, even though the website falsely proclaims delivery within two weeks. I would define a wait time over a month (and counting) a backlog.

Thanks for that. I appreciate the additional data-point, as most of what I was seeing before was that there was pointing towards a possible inventory buildup in North America. If even the high end trims are actually in shorter supply than indicated, then maybe demand isn't so soft after all.

It still leaves me with a lot of questions about Model X and S, but I think there are more reasonable theories there than a demand cliff.

I’m just working from previous articles which said that a large percentage of their orders were at the lower price point, which has only opened up recently.

Tesla's market is extremely niche. Luxury car to an uneducated car buyer.

Car enthusiasts won't get a Tesla because Tesla's ARE inferior to the competition at that price point.

You don't buy a Tesla because you want your car to work for 2 years without breaking, you buy a Tesla to show friends.

I know luxury Ford products sold 20k/yr, and those were some seriously high end SUVs. Same price point.

I cannot see how Teala is sustainable.

Edit, the reliability problems aren't unique to Tesla, any new car has them. I don't understand why people straight lie about it not having reliability issues.

Everything about this comment is wrong. Car enthusiasts love Tesla. Check out the WSJ review of the Tesla Model 3 Performance [1];

”This thing is magnificent, a little rainbow-farting space ship, so obviously representative of the next step in the history of autos.”

Tesla’s are also very reliable, despite what CR would have you believe. Owner satisfaction is higher for Tesla than any other car, even Porsche 911 and Corvettes. CR admits that owners would not be satisfied with unreliable cars, and then ding TM3 for touchscreen glitches.

Actually, my touchscreen did freeze several times last year under the original firmware. There was an issue where the internet radio streaming would stall if LTE dropped out just as you were skipping a track. They fixed it at the end of last year and the screen hasn’t stalled even once since that OTA update.

My TM3 literally just got 5% faster due to an OTA update this week, because Tesla decided they had too much margin in their motor design.

Finally, the TCO of a RWD standard range Model 3 is lower than a Honda Accord. These cars have a bad reputation for being expensive. My friends ask me how I could possibly afford a car that will ultimately cost less than a $35k ICE vehicle.

[1] - https://www.wsj.com/articles/first-ever-review-of-the-tesla-...

Teslas are superior, not inferior. It's simple physics, BEV means higher acceleration, lower center of gravity, better cabin volume, quieter, and most importantly: you don't contribute nearly as much to destroying the climate or causing asthma and emphysema in children. How do you counter these basic BEV advantages? Are you in favor of releasing emissions for thousands of years?

You are right. The problem is that it is not perception of luxury car buyer. First of all Tesla does not have luxury car design, interior does not look as flashy as the one from competition.

In addition someone who typically buys top Mercedes model that uses 15 liters of gasoline per 100 kilometers every 3 years, buys new iPhone every two years, flyes 5 times a year to spend holidays in a beautiful but distant locations simple does not give a crap about climate changes. That is obviously such person is very pro-eco and wants to fight climate changes (verbally) and even donates some anti global warming foundation and advocates strict CO emission regulations (especially in developing countries) but the last thing such person would do is to restrict its own consumption.

none of that makes a car superior. true that performance matters, but only up to a point, then it's interior space and organization, build quality, comfort, accessibility and why not boot space.

The quality of the interior, not the technical part, is said to be pretty low for the price class that the Model S or X are in.

Obviously they were speaking in terms of luxury. No need for the loaded question.

This is a Strawman comment, from an uneducated car buyer.

There are plenty of higher quality electric vehicles.

The acceleration is one tiny aspect of customer satisfaction.

Tesla has worst in class interiors and reliability. Not having buttons or trays is something only Tesla can get away with.

Is it better for the environment to buy a used car? Or better for the environment to buy a new car?

Just to let you know, you've now called anyone who disagrees with your opinion "uneducated" multiple times. This really rubs me the wrong way.

You need to realize that other people have different priorities than you do. Not everyone cares that their car be as luxury as possible. They just want a good electric vehicle, and there's nothing that beats the Model 3 at that price point -- not in range and not in performance. Yeah, maybe it doesn't have leather seats as nice as the BMW, but most people don't prioritize surface-level luxury above all else, and especially not hardware/car nerds.

FWIW i've owned 3 BMWs and a 2018 Mercedes and I much prefer the seats -- both from a comfort and materials perspective -- in my Model 3 (2nd gen seats).

For someone claiming to be so educated, how can you make so many false statements?

Perhaps you should have a personal experience with them before going around just repeating what you read somewhere or from your imagination.

> you don't contribute nearly as much to destroying the climate or causing asthma and emphysema in children.

Slow down there.

Not everyone cares about climate change.

The _only_ reason I got a Tesla was for the acceleration and social status. With the Model 3, status has been diluted. Is climate change happening and being accelerated by humans? Yes. Do I care? No. I'm actually selling my P3D and switching to a Porsche 911 because of the Tesla brand dilution.

Disclaimer: I work at Google.

I am definitely uneducated & also unlikely to ever buy a luxury car at the Tesla price point. But if I weren’t what electric car would I buy?

You would not buy electric if well versed in automotive tech. Notice few if any mechanics drive ecars.

You mean, you would not buy electric if, as a mechanic, most of your knowledge cannot be applied to an electric car.

For other people who like speed and performance, Tesla's are the cheapest way to get there.

> For other people who like speed and performance, Tesla's are the cheapest way to get there.

I generally like Teslas but unfortunately they were not meant to be driven at high speeds for what other people consider as a normal period of time, as can be seen for example in this YT video [1] of a Tesla's battery over-heating after driving at 190-200 kph on the German autobahn. Their 0-to-100 kph times are excellent, though.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff0F5f9bmwc

The vast majority of Germans don't drive on the Autobahn at such insane speeds, and this certainly isn't an option anywhere else anyway (legally). Such a niche use case really does not matter all that greatly in the scheme of things. I can think of dozens of factors more important to me than "not being able to drive at 200 kph for extended periods of time".

> The vast majority of Germans don't drive on the Autobahn at such insane speeds

It's not an insane speed, a new VW Golf can handle 170-180 kph pretty damn well, hell, my 12-year old 1.4l hatchback can do 130-140 kph for hours at a time quite as well, too.

It's insane because it's way too fast (thus potentially dangerous), not because vehicles aren't physically capable of it. The occasional driver roaring down the Autobahn in the left lane at 200 kph is the exception, not the rule.

They released a new version of the firmware today to fix this.

Few if any mechanics drive luxury automobiles at the Tesla price point.

This is so arrogant and wrong.

John Carmack would disagree: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/4kfs42/john_ca...

I'm a car enthusiast, and you're wrong.