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Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by purpleidea on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:16PM (#19423561)
I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer.

Two points:

1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated?

2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development.

For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. That's currently not required, they're allowed to cherry-pick results!

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by leconteur on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:27PM (#19423684)
Seems like a good opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by tw04 on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:30PM (#19423710)
>For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. That's currently not required, they're allowed to cherry-pick results!

Why? The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. Which side effect is better than your child being dead? Or mine for that matter because the collective you (not you personally) decided that risking polio was better than the 1 in 10 billion chance you had an adverse reaction to a vaccine.

We've literally eradicated diseases that could have wiped out the entire human race and now we've got idiots trying their hardest to bring them back.

If parents want to have the "choice" to vaccinate their children, then they should also be held legally liable for ANYONE that gets sick as a result of that choice. Whether it's their own kid or an outbreak in the area they live.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by majewsky on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:38PM (#19423805)
> Which side effect is better than your child being dead?

This is a very simplistic view given the probabilities involved. For a drastic example, consider a hypothetical treatment that can perfectly prevent a disease that would otherwise kill 1% of those who are treated, but it will blind 100% of them. It's hard to argue that this is a better outcome.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by tw04 on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:14PM (#19424164)
But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about available vaccines and none of them cause blindness. And the rates of death are far higher than 1%. The probabilities involved are ridiculously in favor of vaccination. Literally the exact opposite of what you claim.

Making up completely ridiculous examples to just justify anti-vaxxer idiocy should stay on Facebook.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by irondruid on Monday March 18, 2019 @04:52PM (#19425158)
<< We're talking about available vaccines and none of them cause blindness.

Quick Google Search: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22989339

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by chrisbennet on Monday March 18, 2019 @06:51PM (#19426162)
“Reversible blindness in bilateral optic neruritis associated with nasal flu vaccine.“

Reversable - the tiny chance of a reversable condition vs contributing to the death of others. Can you be more selfish?

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by irondruid on Monday March 18, 2019 @07:35PM (#19426457)
Previous comment 1) Burden of proof 2) Single cause

You 1) Moving the goalposts 2) Illicit Major 3) Ad hominem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by bzbarsky on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:30PM (#19424331)
> The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death.

Is this a serious claim about currently-required vaccines? Including the one for varicella, say?

Vaccines have a _lot_ of benefits; my kids are certainly vaccinated for all sorts of things (including varicella, though that was a bit of a tough call for me). But overselling those benefits with blanket claims like "the alternative to being vaccinated is death" is not a good way to get the "everyone should be vaccinated" position to be taken seriously.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by leftyted on Monday March 18, 2019 @04:26PM (#19424886)
> Why? The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death.

This seems like a huge exaggeration to me. There's a chickenpox vaccine nowadays which wasn't widely available when I was a kid. As a result, my siblings and I all contracted chickenpox at one point or another. Chickenpox is only very rarely a serious illness for children.

Even with regard to more serious illnesses that have been made rare by vaccination (measles and mumps), death is quite rare (less than 1% according to wikipedia).

Overall, I find your tone a bit disturbing. I'm very pro-vaccine, but I sometimes wonder if a kinder, gentler approach wouldn't be more effective. When you yell at people, they are much less likely to listen to you. When you use dishonest arguments like you've done here you just provide anti-vaxxers with ammunition.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by orbifold on Monday March 18, 2019 @04:51PM (#19425148)
Some diseases are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others. They are sometimes really dangerous to any adult and typically all kinds of immune compromised people. Herd immunity is in some cases the only way they can be protected.
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by leftyted on Monday March 18, 2019 @04:57PM (#19425208)
> Some diseases are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others.

This is exactly what I wrote, isn't it? The person I was responding to wrote:

> The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. Which side effect is better than your child being dead?

I'm not arguing against vaccinations. I'm arguing against exaggeration.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by orbifold on Monday March 18, 2019 @05:11PM (#19425356)
My point is that even if a disease is not dangerous to everyone it is worth to vaccinate everyone so that the rest benefits from herd immunity. In the cases where a disease is not dangerous to most children but dangerous to most adults things are even more complicated because once you have vaccinated sufficiently many people the disease becomes rare so it is more likely that someone unvaccinated contracts it as an adult.
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by RobertRoberts on Monday March 18, 2019 @09:56PM (#19427382)
> Some diseases are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others.

And some vaccines are not a big deal for most children but can outright kill others.

Don't you think a scientific view of the cost/benefits of vaccines should be common narrative?

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by deytempo on Monday March 18, 2019 @05:07PM (#19425331)
That’s an interesting idea. Make it so anyone who knowingly goes into a public place with a contagious illness is held legally responsible for it.
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by RandomTisk on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:26PM (#19423657)
Me either, but I've always wondered:

3) What danger do un-vaccinated children pose to vaccinated ones?

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by SamBam on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:28PM (#19423694)
The generally pose the most danger to those either too young to be vaccinated, or who can't be vaccinated due to legitimate medical concerns. This is not uncommon, and such children rely on the herd immunity of their peers.

Further, as few vaccines are 100% effective, the herd immunity also limits the exposure of viruses to those for whom the vaccine was ineffective.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by RandomTisk on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:31PM (#19423724)
Makes sense, thanks.
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by josephv on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:37PM (#19423792)
Vaccination doesn't 100% guarantee immunity, so there is always a % that isn't immune. Each disease requires a different % immunity to prevent a wide-spread outbreak, i.e. to provide herd immunity. For particularly aggressive diseases it requires 95ish% immunity to avoid an outbreak.

So with anti-vaxxers increasing from roughly .5% to 1.5% over the last 10 years or so, that introduces a significant increase in the requirement of vaccination effectiveness, to the point where you wonder are we close to herd immunity breaking down.

In places with significant anti-vax sentiments, such as ultra-orthodox religious practices you will get those larger outbreaks of things like measles.

In general I think research indicates in the general populous anti-vaxxer populations are still small and disparate enough as to not impact herd immunity, but the trend has been upward due to the anti-vax trend over the last decade.

[source] am married to an M.D. that specialized in microbiology, recently listened to a good NPR bit about it that dropped the statistics, and I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by tehlike on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:28PM (#19423692)
The problem is some people with weak immune system cannot be vaccinated. So it's also for protection of these people.
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by noir_lord on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:28PM (#19423689)
They don't, un-vaccinated children pose a danger to children who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons.

It's herd immunity but it only works if the vaccination rate is sufficiently high.

[dead]
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by dang on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:45PM (#19424459)
This comment breaks the site guidelines. Please review and follow them here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by RobertRoberts on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:09PM (#19424105)
This would be a good start. For some reason there is this irrational belief that there are no side effects or ill-effects from vaccines.

There are a number of doctors I have heard from that say vaccines can cause all kinds of debilitating side effects. But even "questioning" the status quo will get you down-votes, ridicule and draw ad homenim attacks.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by anth_anm on Monday March 18, 2019 @07:34PM (#19426451)
How many of those doctors lost licenses or were otherwise rebuked?
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by RobertRoberts on Monday March 18, 2019 @09:07PM (#19427122)
Here's two on youtube, do you think they present valid scientifically based views or should they be rebuked and/or have their licenses revoked?

If you disagree with these doctors, why?

Dr. Richard Halvorsen (England)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMs1ue8j9CM

Dr. Suzanne Humphries (USA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFQQOv-Oi6U

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by jedmeyers on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:32PM (#19423736)
I agree. There are currently a lot of problems with vaccine development transparency and the chain of custody in handling of the vaccines is non existent. Yet someone is paying for this major social media propaganda push that anti-vaxxers are all low IQ deplorables who kill their own children. In parallel the fact that everyone should be forced to be vaccinated regardless of any other concerns is pushed as a sane rhetoric. Next thing they will be saying is that government conducting experiments on people (like the Tuskegee Study) never happened and it’s all just conspiracy theories.
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by bryanlarsen on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:42PM (#19423858)
"Yet someone is paying for this major social media propaganda push that anti-vaxxers are all low IQ deplorables who kill their own children."

Why would people be paying for this? There are probably millions of people out there who would be willing to say something similar without payment.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by new_guy on Monday March 18, 2019 @06:56PM (#19426191)
Because it ostracizes 'anti-vaxxers' as a group and creates a 'them' or 'us' mentality.

Vaccines aren't 100% safe, there's been something like $4 billion paid out in compensation for them, and to get compensation you have to legally absolve them of liability and keep the media out of it!

But by pushing the narrative and ridiculing anyone who asks legitimate questions the pharmaceutical companies bury that and no-one wants to be branded as an 'anti-vaxxer' so they keep their mouths shut.

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/data/index.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Injury_Compen...

It's very similar to how the tobacco industry (and the sugar industry even earlier and the coal companies) manipulate the media take this study for example: ( https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/vaccines-autis... )

They studied 650,000 people. But injuries from vaccines are about 1 in one million, so the study was designed to fail but it got the press coverage!

edit: formatting

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by WA on Tuesday March 19, 2019 @02:10AM (#19428474)
As a counter point: Vaccines aren’t a big profit center for big pharma. They are expensive to develop and most people need only one to three shots for 10 years or a lifetime.

On the other hand, there is hormonal contraception, which is indeed a great profit center, because people need it every day (or a hormonal IUD, which is good for 3-5 years, but also a lot more expensive).

And now read news reports about all the nasty side effects of the pill. There was a big shift around 2016 and since then, there are media reports all the time. Nothing is put under the carpet here, although I think, economically speaking, it would make much more sense to “manipulate the media” that hormonal contraceptives have no side effects than manipulating the media about vaccines.

And the number of people affected is even less than with vaccines (only women in a certain age and not all of them vs. basically all children and many adults). So it should even be easier to manipulate the media about the non-existence of side-effects of the pill (of which stuff like thrombosis is deadly).

I know, just because one thing isn’t manipulated, everything about vaccines could still be manipulated, but I don’t buy it. Follow the money – doesn’t seem that lucrative.

Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by choko on Monday March 18, 2019 @03:15PM (#19424179)
The "push" to show anti-vaxers as idiots is probably not a coordinated effort. Standard human behavior explains the wave of anti anti-vax (and anti-flat earth) memes, news stories, and social media posts already. These are both unpopular outgroups that people can make fun of with little to no social repercussion. Many people use the "bullying" (for lack of a better word) of outgroups as a way to make themselves feel superior and to fit in with the larger in-group. If someone is paying for the effort, they are wasting their money.
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by alexandercrohde on Monday March 18, 2019 @02:35PM (#19423769)
I don't know that it's paid for right now (though it could be, there is a huge financial upside). Do you have anything concrete for that assessment (as opposed to just angry/bored people on the internet looking for something to get mad about?) ?
Re:Italy bans unvaccinated children from school by RobertRoberts on Monday March 18, 2019 @04:27PM (#19424895)
I don't know why you are getting voted down for this comment, but it seems that anything that questions vaccine safety, even if completely rational and reasonable is being shut down on social media.