News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by Tuna-Fish on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:11PM (#19343149)
They are unlikely to do this at this point.

The big problem is that while the capsule will be reusable, since NASA killed the propulsive landing for Dragon 2, it now needs to splash down in saltwater and therefore is not considered safe for humans after the first use.

This makes Dragon 2:s too expensive for large-scale space tourism. Unless there is suddenly a huge market for this, I think SpaceX would prefer to sell interested space tourism customers flights on Starship instead.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by ChuckMcM on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:27PM (#19343259)
I'm not disagreeing with the idea that Musk would shoot for using Starship for tourism, but I also think that I wouldn't put it past SpaceX to continue toward qualifying a reusable Dragon 2.

They are already getting good experience (and can experiment with) Dragon Cargo capsule re-use to better understand the impact of salt water landings on their designs. And while it would be hard to find space for the landing struts to go back into D2, if that meant doing a parachute landing with a last minute landing burn similar to what Blue Origin has proposed in their sub-orbital offering and is currently used on Soyuz, I could see that working with a landing in Texas.

What amazes me that this seems like a "small" amount of engineering to go from where they are, to a capability that was previously considered impossible by many. I'm sure it is way more complex than I realize, but they have some so far from where they started.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by nickik on Saturday March 09, 2019 @12:20PM (#19347197)
> continue toward qualifying a reusable Dragon 2.

Pretty unlikely. To have it landing on land would be incredibly difficult specially to qualify.

Also they already have Starship and Starlink as huge projects they have to finance. They will make as much money as possible of Dragon 2 with the flights from NASA and invest that money in Starship.

Starship could actually be useful for tourism.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by perilunar on Friday March 08, 2019 @09:16PM (#19344043)
I wonder if they could catch the Crew Dragon with Mr Steven instead of water splashdown? No loss if they miss, and less refurb if they succeed.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by simonh on Friday March 08, 2019 @09:51PM (#19344148)
Mr Steven is designed to catch fairing halves which weigh just under a metric ton. A Dragon capsule weighs 9.5 tons and can carry up to 7 people or 3 tonnes of return cargo, so it’s from 10 to 13 times heavier than a fairing half.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by thachmai on Saturday March 09, 2019 @02:26PM (#19347941)
Metric ton sounds redundant to me. Does the US have the notion of a "imperial ton"? (1000lbs?)
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by grzm on Saturday March 09, 2019 @02:28PM (#19347952)
Yes, tons do differ. A metric ton (or tonne) is 1000kg. In the US what’s commonly referred to as a ton is a short ton, or 2000 lbs.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by NeedMoreTea on Saturday March 09, 2019 @02:33PM (#19347978)
An imperial ton would be the British one, also known as a long ton. It's 2,240 lbs, which is slightly heavier than a metric tonne.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by Rapzid on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:39PM (#19343656)
Any news on this? I was super, super disappointed this mission did have a propulsive landing. I'm just now finding out it was nixed entirely.

But that's fine for NASA if they want to pay for a splash down? If somebody else wants to pay for propulsive landing, it's on the table?

EDIT: Sounds like a SpaceX driven decision.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by jordanthoms on Friday March 08, 2019 @08:03PM (#19343773)
As I understand it, originally SpaceX was planning on using propulsive landing with side-mounted thrusters and legs coming through the heatshield (i.e. what was planned for Dragon 2) on Mars, so they were developing the technology with that end in mind.

Once they decided to go straight to Starship/BFR with the movable 'wings' and raptor engines on the bottom and cancelled the dragon missions to Mars, there was less reason to go though the huge amount of work to finish developing and qualifying dragon-style propulsive landing. NASA was never super happy with it and Dragon was designed to do water landings with parachutes in case the thrusters failed anyway, so it wouldn't have been too much work to make that the only option.

This has lead to a strange situation where it seems Boeing's Starliner has ended up being more reusable than Dragon as it comes back onto land... But if they get Starship going, all this will be irrelevant.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by kevin_thibedeau on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:27PM (#19344256)
Cargo Dragon will give them the chance to experiment with refinements to the parachute and rockets for zero risk. There should be no reason why they can't do Soyuz style rocket assist landings.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by valuearb on Sunday March 10, 2019 @01:05AM (#19350629)
Expense. NASA won’t pay for it and SpaceX is focused on Starship.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by sourkremlin on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:08PM (#19343481)
where did you hear that dragon 2 is not safe for humans after splashdown? that's not accurate
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by benatkin on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:09PM (#19344200)
I think the issue is more that it's not guaranteed to be safe than it's not safe. Salt water is corrosive. It might take a many times more exposure to salt water than a single landing for it to severely damage it, but it still gets rid of the guarantee until they study it more.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by skellington on Saturday March 09, 2019 @12:39PM (#19347328)
You know, it's like how once you put a boat into water once, it's unsafe for humans...
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by trashaccount123 on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:26PM (#19343582)
Can confirm it’s not accurate.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by alexanderdmitri on Saturday March 09, 2019 @01:13AM (#19344770)
thank you for the confirmation trashaccount123
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by tomiplaz on Saturday March 09, 2019 @04:43AM (#19345356)
At the post-launch press conference [1], Musk was asked a question whether they intend to use the capsule for tourism if there were interested individuals. His answer was affirmative, but not for the very near future. Also, it seemed as if they don't intend to go down that path for the general public, but rather have that capability ready for interested people willin to pay a premium.

[1] https://youtu.be/HuXPLtJXd14

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by influx on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:33PM (#19343293)
Why did they force the requirement for saltwater splashdown?
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by rhcom2 on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:58PM (#19343415)
IIRC they were concerned about having retractable legs beneath the heat shield so in terms of complexity the water landing is safer.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by valuearb on Sunday March 10, 2019 @01:08AM (#19350635)
No, that’s not it. The Shuttle had them and the engineering is easy. NASA was wary of the safety of propulsive landings and the time/cost to approve them would have been too much.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by slg on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:59PM (#19343427)
I am curious about this as well. Was the propulsion the problem? Did they just want a water landing? Did they specifically want an ocean landing to increase the acceptable margin for error in the splash down location? Is there some specific property to the salt water like buoyancy that is important? Would a landing in fresh water like the Great Lakes (or Lake Victoria if they need something more equatorial) meet NASA's requirements and allow the capsule to be reusable?
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by nordsieck on Friday March 08, 2019 @08:37PM (#19343929)
> Would a landing in fresh water like the Great Lakes (or Lake Victoria if they need something more equatorial) meet NASA's requirements and allow the capsule to be reusable?

I'd guess that one of the big reasons they (and everyone else who does water landings) lands in the ocean, is that it is much more palatable to regulators to create an exclusion zone in the ocean, which people can easily route around.

Also, people live on the side of the lake, so there isn't much margin for error, which never warms the cockles of a regulator's heart.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by hermitdev on Saturday March 09, 2019 @12:48PM (#19347381)
I'd also wager that the concentration of vessels on the great lakes is significantly higher than 100 miles or so out into an ocean. Wouldn't want to land on a sailboat. Don't think that'd work out well for either end.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by phkahler on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:06PM (#19343471)
+1 for splashdown in the great lakes. Now let's throw in launch pad on the shore of lake superior for getting in polar orbits. ;-)
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by torpfactory on Friday March 08, 2019 @10:23PM (#19344241)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keweenaw_Rocket_Range

So yah they didn't reach orbit but you betcha it was still pretty neat to see it.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by duxup on Saturday March 09, 2019 @12:07AM (#19344597)
This is Space X.... let's go for a splash down in a water park in Wisconsin too!
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by pferde on Saturday March 09, 2019 @10:34AM (#19346606)
Eventually, SpaceX will improve the accuracy so much that they will be able to get random celebrities to pay for having splashdowns in their private Beverly Hills swimming pools. :)
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by oh_sigh on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:40PM (#19344505)
How big of an area could they splash down in? Could they target Lake Victoria, being the largest freshwater lake near the equator? Obviously, you don't want to miss...
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by antpls on Saturday March 09, 2019 @03:33AM (#19345126)
Cannot it be reused because of the splash or because of the salt? What about splash landing in a natural/artificial lake?
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by monk_e_boy on Saturday March 09, 2019 @06:55AM (#19345723)
or something non liquid - plastic balls, foam pit etc.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by avmich on Saturday March 09, 2019 @11:21AM (#19346812)
After flying on parachutes it's pretty hard to land on a pre-determined place, and the smaller the place the higher chance of missing it. Falcon-9 first stages have more control authority, and even they sometime miss the landing zone if the wind is particularly unfavorable; but they are unmanned and the stakes are lower, in worst case they just won't land softly. Can't have that with manned capsules, so has to have parachutes, so is subjected to winds...
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by monk_e_boy on Sunday March 10, 2019 @06:16PM (#19354987)
Interesting point. I fly kitesurf kites, so I know a fair bit about piloting a bit of cloth above my head. I'd guess a parachute / kite would be a fun way to land the capsule.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by avmich on Sunday March 10, 2019 @10:02PM (#19356142)
Maybe, and capsule designers considered it. I guess reliability issues dictated dead simple solutions, which lack in landing precision but excel in ensuring survivability?
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by iamcreasy on Friday March 08, 2019 @08:16PM (#19343830)
> NASA killed the propulsive landing for Dragon 2

Are you sure NASA was to blame for it? I remember Elon saying they are not perusing propulsive landing anymore because of the amount of resources it would take to develop and validate the design. From what I gather, it was SpaceX's decision.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by rst on Friday March 08, 2019 @08:40PM (#19343935)
Combined decision. NASA was unwilling to pay for testing propulsive landing, or allow testing on cargo missions, because the parachutes already work, and SpaceX didn't want to front the money themselves.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by mandeepj on Saturday March 09, 2019 @10:49AM (#19346678)
Falcon 9’s landing on land tech can’t be used in dragon?
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by avmich on Saturday March 09, 2019 @11:23AM (#19346825)
No, it's not reliable enough. Energiya considered powered landing for Zarya capsule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarya_(spacecraft) and felt it wasn't safe to land this way.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by rsj_hn on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:26PM (#19343257)
That's interesting. I always assumed that most of the damage happened on re-entry and not the splashdown. Can you elaborate on why the splashdown kills re-use?
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by huehehue on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:43PM (#19343340)
"Although water retrieval has been attempted, it is not recommended due to the adverse effect that salt water has on avionics, electronics, and structures. This approach was abandoned due to the elevated cost associated with refurbishing salt water damaged components. By avoiding water retrieval, the engines would avoid maintenance that would have resulted from the corrosive nature of the salt water and thereby expedite turnaround time. When considering recovery of reusable systems, salt water is much more severe than returning to land at the launch site."

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/201700...

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by based2 on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:33PM (#19343613)
just create a movable water pool for the ocean.

http://news.mit.edu/2015/shockwave-process-desalination-wate...

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by varjag on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:15PM (#19343520)
This is related to rocket engines, not ballistic descent capsules.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by Teever on Friday March 08, 2019 @08:56PM (#19343982)
Ballistic descent capsules such as the Dragon have rocket engines in them.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by avmich on Saturday March 09, 2019 @11:28AM (#19346858)
True. However some capsules have rather small engines, and small available delta-v, so the whole propulsion package can be made, say, replaceable. Soyuz, for example, lands using only about 30 kilograms of hydrogen peroxide to help with control during reentry. Maybe Crew Dragon can evolve to have this subsystem serviceable.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by bahmboo on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:53PM (#19343390)
I live by salt water. Salt water destroys everything. Sometimes quickly but always eventually. Ok, maybe not fish.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by lenocinor on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:11PM (#19343500)
It's really true. In your home it'll even happen to your indoor stuff if you're not careful.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by varjag on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:16PM (#19343530)
Carbon steel hull ships traverse saltwater for many decades however.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by spricket on Friday March 08, 2019 @08:28PM (#19343886)
They use cathodic protection which makes the underwater hull basically immune to corrosion. But this doesn't stop water that gets on top or inside.

Ships rust like hell. I've known some guys in the Navy and they said it was common for everything unarmored to have holes all over.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by emiliobumachar on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:49PM (#19343725)
What's their maintenance like?
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by varjag on Friday March 08, 2019 @07:57PM (#19343756)
Scrub/repaint every few years?

In comparison, splashdown capsules spend maybe few hours tops in the water.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by lutorm on Friday March 08, 2019 @08:24PM (#19343863)
The problem is that, unlike ships, they're generally not designed to be water proof. It's not the exterior that's the problem.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by luke0016 on Friday March 08, 2019 @09:48PM (#19344140)
I mean, the crew part of it is water proof, right? It has to be air tight...

I'm guessing there are things on the "outside" that might still have issues?

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by rblatz on Saturday March 09, 2019 @01:07AM (#19344759)
The first part of your post reminded me of this quote from Futurama.

Professor Farnsworth: Good Lord! That's over 5000 atmospheres of pressure!

Fry: How many atmospheres can the ship withstand?

Professor Farnsworth: Well, it was built for space travel, so anywhere between zero and one.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by politician on Friday March 08, 2019 @09:54PM (#19344157)
> ... there are things on the "outside" that might still have issues ...

... on the second reentry attempt.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by deedubaya on Friday March 08, 2019 @06:31PM (#19343279)
I'm guessing its the salt water that is the problem.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by billfruit on Saturday March 09, 2019 @08:00AM (#19345900)
Incidentally why does NASA prefer splashing down in the water, rather than a soft landing in dry land like the Russians do?
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by amatwl on Saturday March 09, 2019 @10:26PM (#19349984)
Dragon 2/ Crew Dragon originally was going to support propulsive landing, but nixed due to future architectural plans (making some of Dragon a bit of engineering dead-end versus Starship/ BFR) and complexities in certifying for NASA use.

The Soyuz fires retro-rockets just before landing in Kazakhstan to lessen the impact. Even with that, the landing is still pretty rough. Land landings are sometimes described as akin to a car crash - water landings are softer. I'm sure there's probably a contingency capability of being able to support a land landing for Crew Dragon in case of aborts.

Interesting history note: there was an actually a concern during some of the early Apollo flights (I'm specifically thinking of Apollo 7) of land landings during an abort. Apollo 7 used a Block II version of the Command Module, however the crew couches were still the Block I variant. There was evidence showing the couches wouldn't perform well during a land landing. The concern was that if the LES was used, winds could force the capsule to a land landing. The resolution was that wind speed was a factor in a GO decision for launch.

It's interesting to note that Starliner is planned to perform land landings (using airbags). Land landings for capsules have been worked on since the 60s with the Gemini initially having plans for a Rogallo wing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogallo_wing#/media/File:Gemin...). There were even plans for re-use of the Gemini capsule! Water landings quickly ended that discussion, since salt water is pretty terrible and corrosive.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by billfruit on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:00AM (#19351073)
Water landings have their peculiar risks also, I think there was some incident in Mercury program when Gus Grissom's craft got flooded after splashdown.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by Symmetry on Saturday March 09, 2019 @08:10AM (#19345944)
The plan had been for landing legs with shock absorbers to come out through the heat shield and NASA saw that, understandably, as too big a risk.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by vermontdevil on Saturday March 09, 2019 @10:38AM (#19346632)
Boeing starliner will do a land based return.

Different capsule, different costs and development.

Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by gibolt on Friday March 08, 2019 @11:49PM (#19344534)
They could potentially send a few test attempts with cargo-only or non-NASA missions to test.
Re:SpaceX Crew Dragon Splashes Down After Historic Test Flight by rockxloose on Saturday March 09, 2019 @03:33AM (#19345124)
> since NASA killed the propulsive landing for Dragon 2

What was the price of that program module for propulsive landing? $2B or the amount of money wasted on the knucklehead category of Ofo bikeshare app business model?