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Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by ohiovr on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @08:48AM (#19263168)
Could we make standardized durable containers that can simply be scrubbed, optionally polished and reused? Or just melted down and reused. Seemed to work ok for the dairy industry decades before my birth.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by grecy on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @08:54AM (#19263196)
That's the amazing thing about what the developed world right now, recycling is the worst of the three things we should be doing. i.e.

Reduce. Reuse. Recycle.

Go to a developing country and the deposit on the beer bottle costs more than the beer in it. They are all clean and reused. Tons of countries charge money for plastic bags, or have even made them illegal. We need to catch up.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by duckMuppet on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:53AM (#19263964)
Catch up???...

Anyone even semi educated or over 55 recalls that when they grew up, most items came in glass containers, containers that you were required to place a deposit, and return for a refund.

It's only recent history, that a non conservative society which values expediency at a price of disposability and non ownership for freedom has become the norm.

More than this, the recycle scam is finally being exposed, and not soon enough in my estimation.. Islands of plastic in the Pacific ocean, so that people in cities feel better about themselves while driving to and from yoga in their prius while finger wagging truck driving hillbillies in the middle of the country.

Meanwhile, mayors, local reps, and governors try to export the problems somewhere else while millenials look to the federal govt and the administrative state as their saviours, so nothing really has to get done. Cue the food/milk/bag/whatever delivery as a service folks. This has cash cow written all over it..

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by andygates on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:53AM (#19263965)
Deposits and glass work well for fairly local industries; the big soft drink companies have a broader geographic reach and so are motivated to make a lighter bottle to reduce shipping costs. Legislation would probably be needed to require reusables or make disposables unattractively expensive to corporate HQ.

And that's before we even mention sachets. The very devil.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by bluGill on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:42PM (#19265126)
Big soft drink companies have bottling plants all over. Coke isn't made in Atlanta Georgia and shipped to Des Moines IA: it is made in Atlantic IA and Shipped to Des Moints. I don't know where else Coke has plants, but I would guess nearly every country in the world - with many having more than one. Coke delivers to the local store and goes back empty for more so this would work well if they would go back to glass bottles.

It isn't that simple though, I have relatives that worked for coke back in the glass bottle days and they would never drink coke from a glass bottle - they knew first hand how hard it was to get those bottles clean again. New plastic bottles and cans are always clean.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by Symbiote on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:34PM (#19265035)
Soft drinks are usually bottled/canned fairly close to the consumers. For example, Coca Cola has six manufacturing sites in the UK [1].

Sometimes the concentrated syrup will be transported to the bottling company; I think this is probably the usual case for smaller markets.

[1] https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/about-us/our-business

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by grecy on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:13PM (#19264796)
Tons of Developing and Undeveloped countries I've spent time in have reuseable glass coke bottles.....

It can be done

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by 1over137 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:41AM (#19263487)
The thing is that 'reduce' and 'reuse' are basically anti-consumerist/anti-capitalist, and thus there is formidable opposition to them.

Consider a neighbourhood where everyone has a lawn to mow. The lawnmover companies want to increase (not reduce) sales. So we end up with everyone having their own mower, which sits idle 95% of the time, instead of one community mower that's shared by neighbours. It's just a little example, but it extends to everything.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by grecy on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:15PM (#19264810)
You are 100% correct. At this point it's become anti-American to even suggest spending less money.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by ryantuck on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:53AM (#19264530)
This episode of EconTalk addresses the issue of transaction costs for things like lawnmowers and drills, and how future apps might solve that problem: https://www.econtalk.org/michael-munger-on-sharing-transacti...
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by chopin on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:54AM (#19263582)
But there's more to it to desire an own mower:

1. Everybody wants to mow at the same time

2. Community goods are often treated careless, leaving me with a dirty or non-functional mower when it is my turn

3. Who is responsible for repairs

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by derekp7 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:08AM (#19263655)
Not only that, but the last lawn mower I bought (with my first house) lasted me 20 years. Whereas I'm sure a lawn mower that is used 15 times a week wouldn't last much more than a season or two.

Off topic, but when I bought a new mower last year, I couldn't believe how far the technology has come. No more primer bulb, starts easily on the first pull, and a few other items I don't recall off the top of my head. Same with cars, for example if you get out of it while it is still in gear it automatically puts itself in park, and it can limp home with loss of coolant (it fires every other cylinder pushing air through the others for cooling).

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by bluGill on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:57PM (#19265314)
There are many different grades of mowers. A cheap residential mower is cheap and lasts just long enough that you don't think it was junk when you have to replace it. A commercial mower is used more in a month than most people mow in a lifetime and is built to higher quality (and price).

The neighborhood mower would cost 10x as much last just as long and serve the needs of 20 people - so a better deal in the long run. However what price are you willing to pay to not have to use the mower on your neighborhood's schedule - owning your own is probably worth it for you.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by ghufran_syed on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:27AM (#19264221)
Do you have a reference for the car engine thing? I did a quick search and couldn't find anything yet. Sounds really interesting, I'd like to read more.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by derekp7 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:20PM (#19268532)
Here is the owners manual for my car: http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/Catalog/owner... On page 259, under the heading "Fail-Safe Cooling".

  If the engine reaches a preset
  over-temperature condition, the engine
  automatically switches to alternating
  cylinder operation. Each disabled cylinder
  acts as an air pump and cools the engine.
  When this occurs, your vehicle still
  operates, however:
  • Engine power is limited.
  • The air conditioning system turns off.
  Continued operation increases the engine
  temperature, causing the engine to
  completely shut down. Your steering and
  braking effort increases in this situation.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by kw71 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:35PM (#19267894)
Ford has been doing this for decades (I think I saw it mentioned in the docs for EEC IV.) It turns off fuel for a cylinder here and there intending to pump heat out of the engine (a cylinder with no fuel is an air pump.)

It doesn't really let you operate with no coolant. Might get you farther before you die if you push it.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by derekp7 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:26PM (#19268556)
You are correct, that the manual doesn't specifically say it can operate without coolant (now that I re-read it). What it does is active fail safe mode, then will shut the engine off once the temperature goes above another (higher) threshold. So I guess if coolant is completely gone (instead of just low), you may be able to drive for a few minutes then be shut down for a while before driving again (the main purpose is to give you enough time to find a safe spot to stop).
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by SamReidHughes on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:48AM (#19263934)
> it can limp home with loss of coolant (it fires every other cylinder pushing air through the others for cooling).

Wow, this really cheered up my morning. Thanks.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by robin_reala on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:25AM (#19264207)
Slightly ironically, your desire (understandable) to own your own mower overall contributes to the ultimate community good, the world, being left dirtier and non-functional.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by YukonMoose on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:58AM (#19264607)
This is not true. What happens in the real world is that the communal mower will be hogged by the committee members put in charge of managing the mower. They need to do this for the good of the community. Pretty soon they will need to manage other community resources. Some animals are just more equal than others after all.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by vitaflo on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:57AM (#19264588)
You could ask the same question about coffee makers in an office, but we don't have coffee makers on every workers desk.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by chopin on Friday March 01, 2019 @07:29AM (#19279915)
I think you have less congestion. I can come back 10 min later if the maker is blocked. That doesn't work with mowers.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:19AM (#19264155)
Start a landscaping cooperative?
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by nradov on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:08AM (#19263654)
Nobody wants to drag a lawnmower from the other side of the neighborhood every time they want to mow their lawn.

And over the long run, sharing lawnmowers wouldn't even reduce total lawnmower production. The shared lawnmowers would run more hours per week and need replacement sooner.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by dwaltrip on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:43AM (#19263883)
> And over the long run, sharing lawnmowers wouldn't even reduce total lawnmower production. The shared lawnmowers would run more hours per week and need replacement sooner.

This is only true if people fully utilize their personal lawnmower before discarding it. I doubt this is the case. It seems that sharing would result in less discarding of under-utilized lawnmowers, and thus reduce the number of lawnmowers needed. Of course, I'm not saying anyone should be forced to do this.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by nradov on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:37AM (#19264298)
Working lawnmowers get sold and used, not discarded. So that has virtually zero impact on the number of lawnmowers needed.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by kw71 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @06:43PM (#19267942)
I feel like I am the only person around me who maintains (changes oil, rebuilt carb etc.) equipment and people seem to treat lawnmowers the worst. I swear I think people throw them away because they're out of fuel sometimes.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by rovolo on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @01:51PM (#19265851)
Unused working lawnmowers can rust and stop working.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by nradov on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:24PM (#19268105)
Lawnmowers rust if they're not properly maintained, regardless of use. There's no evidence that shared lawnmowers would rust slower. Probably the opposite because when people own their own lawnmowers they're move like to maintain them properly. So no, sharing wouldn't reduce the net demand.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by everdrive on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:26AM (#19263777)
I understand the point you're making. (lawnmowers are simply a single example of a resource people do not wish to share)

But, they're also a great example: we shouldn't have lawns which add nothing to the ecosystem and require resources to maintain.

[edited]

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by eMSF on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:33AM (#19264267)
Most things won't pass your "test" on worthiness. You might be in a lonely group thinking it's a great test.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by everdrive on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:43AM (#19264377)
I'm not sure what you mean.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by nradov on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @07:27PM (#19268117)
Most of us have a lot of things which add nothing to the ecosystem and require resources to maintain. Why single out lawns?
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by everdrive on Thursday February 28, 2019 @09:59AM (#19271702)
Because each yard out there could in principle support at least a little biodiversity: at least some plants, some insects. Curated lawns tend to the opposite.

But plants are "weeds" and insects are "pests." So people spray neurotoxins, and see how much biodiversity they can destroy.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by nradov on Thursday February 28, 2019 @02:28PM (#19274280)
There's no shortage of biodiversity where I live, and my kids sure seem to enjoy the lawn. If there's a problem with certain lawn care chemicals then address that through the appropriate legislative process.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by everdrive on Friday March 01, 2019 @10:27AM (#19281450)
I'm glad to hear it. I'd much rather be wrong on the internet, and have it turn out that you guys have some nice plant and animal life.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by Scoundreller on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:36AM (#19263455)
Do you think the rest of the world is ready for milk in bags?

And most other non-carbonated liquids?

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by wil421 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:42AM (#19263495)
Why would you use a plastic bag for milk? Most of the milk I buy comes in paper cartons.[1] Paper should degrade much faster than a plastic bag, plastic bottle, or glass.

[1]https://www.horizon.com/faqs?f%5B5%5D=field_faq_category%3A9...

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by YUMad on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:45AM (#19263515)
The inside of that carton is still lined with plastic tho.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by AstralStorm on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:09AM (#19263662)
Plastic foil, much more biodegradable and probably compostable to boot, unlike PET.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by wil421 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:22AM (#19264188)
24% polyethylene is still much better than a near 100% plastic bag or milk container.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by o_nate on Thursday February 28, 2019 @03:13PM (#19274645)
It depends. If your county has the right equipment to recycle those mixed paper/plastic cartons then probably so, otherwise the whole thing goes into landfill or is incinerated, and that's more material than a plastic bag. You can check online if your county has the facility (unfortunately mine doesn't).
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by Scoundreller on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:49AM (#19263547)
Tetra is expensive. Great for long term storage and backpack durability, but not worth the added cost (read: resources used in their manufacture) for something that must be consumed within 1-2 weeks of opening.

I do buy cheap wine in tetra boxes. They have a spigot to limit air-intake, so you can take your time to finish it.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by ceejayoz on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:44AM (#19263505)
I get my milk in sturdy glass bottles, which come with a $2 deposit so you bring them back for a wash and reuse.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by FooBarWidget on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:20AM (#19263736)
In China there actually is milk (and soybean milk) sold in bags: https://static.businessinsider.com/image/4b05d2300000000000d...
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by jbay808 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:23PM (#19264916)
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by jtms on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:36AM (#19264292)
We had milk in bags in elementary school in the late eighties in northern FL. You could pop your straw in, place on the table, apply rapid downward pressure: milk cannon! Amazing design, 10/10
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by seanwilson on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:37AM (#19263467)
Glass bottles?
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by ynniv on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:41AM (#19263486)
Used glass is difficult to transport and not very efficient to recycle. It's a great option as long as you re-use the container locally.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by Scoundreller on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @05:18PM (#19267456)
I wish Heinekin’s World bottles succeeded: https://worksthatwork.com/artefacts/world-bottles
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:15AM (#19263316)
We could, but then industry might get together and form a littering organisation to reframe the problem into one of personal ethics and responsibility. Neatly making it nothing whatsoever to do with those that made the problem. Like they did in 1950-something forming Keep America Beautiful when one US state was encacting legislation to require deposit and reuse.

As we can see, it worked really well. The environment was saved, waste and littering are things of the past.

Some people still believe it's a grass roots organisation simply trying to improve the beauty of the country. Edit: founding members Philip Morris, Anheuser-Busch, PepsiCo, and Coca-Cola

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by Scoundreller on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:46AM (#19263529)
It will probably happen. Industry will get on board when they know they won’t have to pay back a lot of those deposits.

I’d prefer a straight tax instead so it goes into general revenue instead of bribing industry.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:35AM (#19263838)
Thing is, unless industry are on the hook at both ends, they are incentivised to discourage, find ways around, or market against it.

So I'd prefer manufacturers responsible for every last cent of running a full-scale return and reuse programme. If that makes fizzy drinks more expensive, well, I'm not sure that's a bad thing either. Externalities are what started us on the way to this mess in the first place.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by mrfusion on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:37AM (#19263463)
The pool company does this with chlorine jugs. You pay ten dollars or so for the jug. Or you can bring your own to trade in for a full one.

Beer growlers are a similar concept. Maybe this just spreads to more and more products.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by gwbas1c on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:26AM (#19263386)
> Or just melted down and reused

That's called recycling

Based on this article, it looks like "Or just melted down and reused" doesn't work very well.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by vegardx on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:39AM (#19263480)
We could start with the simple things, like reusable and standardised takeout boxes and cutlery. Add a small deposit on the return and make sure that any takeout place is required to accept returns, which they in turn can wash and reuse.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by avip on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:32AM (#19263423)
We’ve been doing that for thousands of years. The only tiny issue is convincing people to use it, and informing public that free market has failed as a framework for making environmental decisions.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by merpnderp on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:40AM (#19263483)
Why would you say the free market has failed? If you're assigning blame shouldn't you be pointing at the democracy which regulates the market? You disagree with how a majority of your fellow citizens vote, so either you were simply outvoted on what is important, or you believe democracy failed.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by _jal on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:06AM (#19263644)
Not the OP, but this is straightforward: the market fails to price externalities. Costs are distorted and borne by others. You can regulate it, but if you have sufficient control to price in all externalities and then do so, you are not talking about a 'free market' anymore.

And what is the role of democracy in regulating global public goods? How are you going to vote on environmental protections on other continents?

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by merpnderp on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:40AM (#19263863)
Just because you add a few more rules to a free market doesn't cease to mean it is a free market.

"How are you going to vote on environmental protections on other continents?"

Trade negotiations? Or are you asking if invasion and war are an option, which they absolutely are not.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by mrfusion on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:35AM (#19263442)
I imagine the grocery store of twenty years from now will just have giant barrels of products and everyone brings in their own containers to fill up.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:56PM (#19265307)
Look at photos of shops from the late 19th century, even big ones.

Tea came in chests, sugar and potatoes in sacks, there'd be large jars for the shop owner to measure out from. Most things went to the shop in bulk.

Only a few were pre-packed right from the start, like bars of soap and bottles for instance. Those bottles would almost certainly have a deposit scheme. Most of the individual packaging, and variance of packaging, came with supermarkets.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by cr0sh on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @03:15PM (#19266534)
> Tea came in chests, sugar and potatoes in sacks, there'd be large jars for the shop owner to measure out from. Most things went to the shop in bulk.

It also allowed for easy adulteration of products (ever read old formulary books that were popular back then? They had a ton of "recipes" in them on how to extend or change a product to make more money from it, or sell expired goods, etc).

Imagine bulk flour sold by a company. Shop owner pays some money for it. Then reads how to "extend" the product using wood flour (aka sawdust). The shop owner reaps a much high profit, but the company that milled the flour gets a bad rep.

This kind of thing still goes on today with a variety of products that are sold to the consumer in bulk, especially where the consumer can't easy see what they are getting (or can't test it properly; for instance, it happens with gasoline occasionally).

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @11:44PM (#19268998)
Classic tragedy of the commons. Unfair competition for anyone trying to do it honestly.

It certainly made adulterating super easy, and in no small part led to the food safety laws both sides of the Atlantic, and the UK's trading standards. Things like alum in flour, or other equally unpleasant additives.

More recent variations on the theme have been more aware of the tendency to cheat, so have tried to make it a little more difficult. We'll always need spot checks from trading standards for restaurants and shops as someone will always try.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by Scoundreller on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:37AM (#19263465)
Or just bigger containers.

If laundry detergent doesn’t go bad, why aren’t I buying it in 25L or 50L barrels?

We buy 10year supplies of other products (the machines themselves), why not their consumables? They go up in price every year too.

That or buying the concentrate and diluting it yourself with the old container. That bottle of windex (spray glass cleaner) is 95% water.

Put a nice big tax on consumables, reduce the lowest rates of income tax with the revenue (or write cheques) and voila.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by 1over137 on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:46AM (#19263519)
50 L is very heavy. You'd then need an automobile (which maybe in your country you already have, but if every human had one, we'd be in worse trouble.)

Instead of bigger containers, reusable containers. I have a 4 L container for laundry detergent that I fill up at the store on my walk home from work, fits nicely in my backpack.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by Scoundreller on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @09:54AM (#19263579)
A fair point. But larger containers would be a good option for those that can.

Instead, I just buy 10x 5L containers when they’re on sale. A big waste of plastic.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by AstralStorm on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @10:13AM (#19263685)
Wouldn't be a waste if you could return the containers and the design does not change often.

Barring that, plastic foil is more friendly. Buy a refill if available.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by edflsafoiewq on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @01:15PM (#19265508)
You can buy powdered detergent in a cardboard box.
Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by Scoundreller on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @04:47PM (#19267257)
Not recommended for High Efficiency washers.

I’m not sure if it’s just a scam to sell me liquid detergent tho.

Re:'Moment of reckoning': US cities burn recyclables after C... by hanniabu on Wednesday February 27, 2019 @12:08PM (#19264737)
At that size I'm sure there would be delivery options.