News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by time0ut on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:34PM (#19221186)
The article says he claims he was fired based on his religion, but it doesn't sound like it was related to religion. It just so happened it was a religious holiday. Maybe there is more to the story, but it sounds like he could just as well have been golfing.

Either way, Yelp sounds absolutely toxic if they required him to be available like that. Expecting anyone to be available 24/7/365 is absurd. Set up an on-call rotation. Establish escalation chains. Designate backups. These are basic procedures. If this guy was so critical that there was no-one else in the company that could do whatever it was, hire someone else.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by harimau777 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:50PM (#19221345)
Companies have an obligation to make reasonable accommodations of employee's religions. Not expecting them to be available during major religious holidays is well within the bounds of reasonable accommodations. In addition, unless there is more to the story, it doesn't seem believable that someone acting in good faith wouldn't be able to work something out; I mean Christianity only has two major holidays.

This is excluding extreme cases like if someone claimed that their religion has dozens of major holidays a year. To my knowledge, no major religion does that.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by felipemnoa on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:00PM (#19221451)
>>This is excluding extreme cases like if someone claimed that their religion has dozens of major holidays a year. To my knowledge, no major religion does that.<<

Let me speak to you about the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster...

https://pastafarians.org.au/pastafarianism/holidays/

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by godelski on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:53PM (#19222441)
glob glob

(happy Talk Like a Goldfish Day)

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by microtherion on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:10PM (#19221895)
Paradoxically, the US, where many people take religion very seriously, has quite few religiously based public holidays. Switzerland, on the other hand, is much more secular, but some cantons literally have a dozen Christian public holidays, e.g.: Epiphany (Jan 6), St Joseph's Day (Mar 19), Good Friday, Easter Monday, Ascension Day, Whit Monday, Corpus Christi, Assumption of Mary, All Saint's Day, Feast of the Immaculate Conception, Christmas Day, and Saint Stephen's Day.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by mnm1 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:05PM (#19222196)
Quite few as in zero that employers are required to give their employees. Any country with even one required public holiday has way more than the US.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by lotsofpulp on Thursday February 21, 2019 @11:20PM (#19223097)
I support having mandatory yearly vacation day minimums (such as 20, 30, 40 days), but I don’t see the point of requiring specific dates off. Some people prefer certain dates, others don’t, and supply and demand can easily sort out the extra pay required to have people work on days that more people would want off.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by mnm1 on Friday February 22, 2019 @12:39AM (#19223389)
Oh, I agree completely especially given a binary choice. Too bad in America we have neither.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by maxxxxx on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:10PM (#19222793)
They also don’t respect Sunday. In the US it’s normal that all stores are open on Sundays and holidays.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by tokyodude on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:58PM (#19223006)
Why do I need to respect Sunday? No cities in Asia shutdown on Sunday AFAICT or at least not the ones I've been to. I found it truly annoying when I visited some European cities and nothing was open on Sunday. It felt like they were all under the thumb of religion instead of free to do what they wanted.

Here in Japan Sunday is arguably "Shopping Day". Several areas of the city close one of the major streets from like 12pm to 5pm to pedestrians only for shopping including Shinjuku, Ginza, and Akihabara.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by maxxxxx on Thursday February 21, 2019 @11:45PM (#19223202)
I don't care if you respect Sunday or not. What I am saying is that it's a little strange that a Christian nation is not respecting Sunday.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by greedo on Friday February 22, 2019 @07:08PM (#19230416)
Are you referring to the US as a "Christian nation?" If so, I think you're sadly mistaken.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by maxxxxx on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:08PM (#19231133)
That's what it seems to me. Religion is much more dominant here than in Germany where I come from. For example I don't think a non-christian presidential candidate would have much of a chance.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by threatofrain on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:46PM (#19221771)
I hate to sound like whining, but I feel jealous and cheated that people with professed religions get special benefits. It's not as though people who don't profess their religions, or those without specific religious affiliation don't have inner needs of their own which they also need time to tend to.

I feel like there should be an "average" compromise and everyone should get the benefit. That way there is no awkward incentive in any direction.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by maxxxxx on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:09PM (#19222788)
I feel the same. Everybody should get the same benefits independently of religion.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by tsm on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:54PM (#19221815)
Thus national holidays ("holy days").
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by harimau777 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:06PM (#19221880)
I completely agree, Atheists should get the same treatment as religious people for dates and practices that are important to them.

Obviously I don't want to tell other people how to practice their beliefs, but I never understood why, for example, Atheists don't put up memorials to important humanists (or something else meaningful to them) next to the Nativity scenes and Menorahs that people put up in public during the Holidays.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by iceninenines on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:40PM (#19222371)
Adopt a form of magical thinking, and you too can get extra days off. ;)

But seriously, if you're on a flight that still has meal service, ordering ahead-of-time the kosher or veg/an option usually means you'll get yours first. :D

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by JBReefer on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:43PM (#19221753)
Judaism does that, but most of my Jewish coworkers have just taken PTO for the minor ones. Purim is fun but no one expects off for it!
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by spunker540 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:01PM (#19222181)
I think if the company is open for business on a day that you want off for a religious holiday, then that's why companies give PTO, so that people can have flexibility in how and when they don't show up to work when everyone else does.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by mithr on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:05PM (#19221491)
It's not that he was fired directly "because he was religious", exactly; it's about whether Yelp discriminated against him by violating the following (from https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm):

> The law requires an employer or other covered entity to reasonably accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices, unless doing so would cause more than a minimal burden on the operations of the employer's business. This means an employer may be required to make reasonable adjustments to the work environment that will allow an employee to practice his or her religion.

IANAL, but I believe there is a difference between a person being unavailable due to golfing vs. due to a religious belief, since a person's religious belief is a protected category whereas their sporting activities are not. If it was company policy to shave one's head, but an employee's religion prohibited them from doing so, the company would be discriminating against that person even if they required everyone to shave their heads (caveat: assuming a shaved head was not actually important to the employer's business). Otherwise, a company could "uniformly" apply a rule that "just so happens" to only apply to a specific religion (or gender, or any other protected category), and use that to effectively ban those who fall under that category.

Now, in this specific case, I don't know if he'll be able to show that supporting his beliefs wouldn't have caused Yelp "more than a minimal burden", but I think that's what he's going after.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by time0ut on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:12PM (#19221544)
Ya that makes sense. I wasn't thinking of it that way.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by reaperducer on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:35PM (#19221205)
it doesn't sound like it was related to religion

"Lee also told Weathers, who is pursuing a degree in ministry leadership and has a severely autistic son, that he didn’t care about Weathers’ religious holidays or children, the suit claimed."

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by akerl_ on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:44PM (#19221283)
Discrimination would be saying “I’m making you work this weekend because it’s a religious holiday for you”. Saying “I don’t care about your religion and personal circumstances, I demand you work or ill fire you” isn’t discriminating, it’s just shitty.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by patio11 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:55PM (#19221386)
While I get why that distinction sounds like it matters on a message board, for all of the HNers that will be in a position to hire and fire people: if you make a practice of mentioning holidays when firing people, your lawyers will make a practice of settling lawsuits on unfavorable-to-you terms.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by doktrin on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:03PM (#19221479)
This. If these emails were sent as described, the terminated employee can expect a tidy settlement with the quickness.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by dba7dba on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:34PM (#19222044)
Maybe the management/managers have been getting away with behaviors such as these for so long that they forgot sending such emails to terminated employee is a bad/expensive idea.

Either way, whether religion is involved or not, discriminating or not, from what I've seen so far, Yelp needs to pay.

Just so that it can be a lesson to others.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by akerl_ on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:00PM (#19221447)
I don’t disagree: it’s a dumb thing for an employer to say exactly because it leads to suits like this.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by harimau777 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:56PM (#19221400)
It seems to me that would be basically the same as an employer saying "We don't discriminate against your religion, we just won't allow you to practice it". If that's the case then protection from religious discrimination has no meaning.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by mannykannot on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:19PM (#19221591)
This is exactly to the point. The post to which you are replying is an example of a sort of argument that is not uncommon: it is formally correct, but it completely ignores the subtleties of human interaction.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by reaperducer on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:51PM (#19221352)
Neither of us are lawyers, but it's my understanding that the law is that an employer must made accommodation for religious services.

Several people my wife works with are deliberately scheduled around their weekly religious obligations.

Perhaps an actual lawyer on HN can chime in, or post a helpful link.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by dragonwriter on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:02PM (#19221464)
> Neither of us are lawyers, but it's my understanding that the law is that an employer must made accommodation for religious services.

Employers must, on request, make reasonable accommodation (one which does not impose an “undue hardship”) for religious practices. [0]

Nothing in the narrative provided (which comes from the lawsuit filed by the fired manager) seems to indicate that an advance request for an accommodation was made.

An employer can fire you for failing to perform job duties due to a religious observance for which you did not ask for an accommodation, as I understand it.

[0] https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/workplace_religious_...

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by Aloha on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:52PM (#19221358)
No, discrimination isnt just changing the norms for an employee because its a religious holiday, its about not respecting that employees right to worship as their religion calls them to.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by elgenie on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:58PM (#19221421)
Reasonable accommodations can be made, but if availability during those times is a core job duty (known beforehand), then the firing is eminently justified.

If your religion says you can't handle pork and you take a job at a pig slaughterhouse, the employer should not be obliged to pay you to do nothing.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by alehul on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:05PM (#19221493)
This is true, but as you just said: it has to be a core job duty made clear before hiring. I highly doubt that Yelp would tell candidates "you cannot have a single day without checking your email." There may be some implicit "this is a startup, so work hard" mentality, but that won't hold up in a court of law.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by dragonwriter on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:15PM (#19221568)
> There may be some implicit "this is a startup, so work hard" mentality

Yelp isn't really a startup by any reasonable standard.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by Aloha on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:07PM (#19221506)
I dont think 24/7/365 however is a reasonable thing to demand
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by elgenie on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:25PM (#19221630)
Sure, but you can't sue over that unless that wasn't demanded of people with other beliefs, which doesn't appear to be the case.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by gnicholas on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:56PM (#19221831)
You wouldn't sue and claim to have been discriminated against; the lawsuit would claim that your religious obligations could have been reasonably accommodated by the company but were not.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by ineedasername on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:40PM (#19221727)
Sure you can: it's not a defense to say "but we discriminate against everyone"
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by elgenie on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:49PM (#19221794)
It is. "Discriminate against everyone" is oxymoronic.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by landryraccoon on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:47PM (#19222413)
Religion, like sex, is a protected class.

By your argument you could tell a pregnant woman “sorry, you have to work, all the men have to keep working.”

Regardless of what you personally believe that’s likely a losing case in a lawsuit.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by belorn on Friday February 22, 2019 @08:47AM (#19225198)
Not sure about your jurisdiction, but political affiliation is also a protected class.

Together with religion there isn't possible to have rule or requirement which isn't against someone political or religious view. Anti-discimination laws must therefor limit themselves, often down specific scenarios or looking at the reason why a requirement exist rather than the requirement itself.

For example, if I hold the political view that working more than four days a week is inhumane, that carries just as much as protected class status than if I believed Sundays are declared by god as the day of worship and rest. If a company fired someone for not showing up on the fifth day, they have just as much right to do so as fire someone for not showing up on Sunday if that is what the employment contract says. Local employment laws naturally applies.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by gnicholas on Friday February 22, 2019 @02:39PM (#19228413)
> For example, if I hold the political view that working more than four days a week is inhumane, that carries just as much as protected class status than if I believed Sundays are declared by god as the day of worship and rest.

It's true that in some jurisdictions (including CA), political affiliation/activity is a protected class, meaning employers cannot discriminate against or refuse to hire people because of these affiliations/activities.

But that doesn't necessarily extend to political beliefs. Otherwise, employees could just say that any of their beliefs (I should have a 2-hr lunch; employers should provide free breakfast/lunch/dinner) are political in nature and then get whatever they want. Unlike religion, which may not be the basis for discrimination and must be reasonably accommodated, I'm not sure that any of the political stuff has to be accommodated. I think employers just can't discriminate on this basis.

I could be wrong here, and am happy to be educated. But I'm a former lawyer and have followed this type of things somewhat during the last decade.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by elgenie on Thursday February 21, 2019 @10:02PM (#19222761)
That's nice, but business necessity is, by law, an affirmative defense to discrimination claims, including those based on disparate impact. Whether the defense succeeds or fails depends on the facts of the case and a court's interpretation thereof.

It's literally part of the Griggs v. Duke Power Co decision from which the disparate impact standard arose. The 1991 Civil Rights Act puts on defendants the burden of proving "that the challenged practice is job related for the position in question and consistent with business necessity".

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by landryraccoon on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:34PM (#19222045)
If my employer ever fired me for not working on a holiday I hope they email to say “I don’t care about your religion, I demand you work or I’ll fire you.” My lawyer would probably salivate at that. I’m pretty sure the law says the opposite of what you’re claiming - that’s blatantly admitting you won’t make a reasonable religious accommodation.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by chapium on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:21PM (#19221602)
If I was in that position I'd fail to see a distinction.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by ineedasername on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:02PM (#19221463)
It's discrimination if the guy was fired in part for missing work on that day.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by Spivak on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:44PM (#19221273)
That's how you wind up with zero sympathy from a potential jury.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by zbentley on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:25PM (#19221990)
Workplace discrimination suits are vanishingly unlikely to end up before any sort of jury, at least in the US.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by robbrown451 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:01PM (#19222176)
But what a jury would do can still be relevant.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by elgenie on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:53PM (#19221370)
"I don't care about your religious holidays or children" in this case likely should be interpreted to mean "your exact reason for not doing your job doesn't matter".
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:18PM (#19221936)
It may mean that to the employer. To the employee, it means "I'm a psychopath with zero human empathy."

And to the jury, it probably means "You lose; pay the man."

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by johnminter on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:08PM (#19221513)
I could understand a coverage rotation, but having to be available 24/7/365 is basically being treated as a slave. He might not win his case - and unless his attorney is working on a percentage of a win - he should get a second opinion.

For his own health and well being as a family, he needs to find new employment. Find a job with a more reasonable work/life balance and adapt lifestyle choices to fit the budget.

I know a chaplain that has been at the bedside of many people during their final hours. None ever thought that they should have spent more time at the office.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by phonon on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:00PM (#19221436)
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA)

https://www.workplacefairness.org/religious-discrimination

10. Can my employer prevent me from taking off on religious holidays or my day of worship?

You should start by letting your employer know that there is a conflict between your religious observances and your work schedule. When your employer's workplace policies interfere with your religious practices, you can ask for what is called a "reasonable accommodation": a change in a workplace rule or policy which would allow you to engage in a religious practice without conflicting with your work obligations.

Your employer is required to provide you with such an accommodation unless it would impose an "undue hardship" on the employer's business, defined as an accommodation that is too costly or difficult to provide. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) who oversees these types of claims, has interpreted an undue hardship to mean anything more than regular administrative costs, anything that reduces workplace efficiency or impairs workplace safety, anything infringing on other employees' job rights or causes those said employees' to carry the accommodated employee's share of burdensome work, or if the proposed accommodation conflicts with another law or regulation. Thus, employers are obligated to try in good faith to resolve the religious conflict, or identify an actual monetary or administrative expense. It is important for you to work closely with your employer to find an appropriate accommodation.

If the accommodation would impose a burden on the employer that cannot be resolved, the employer is not required to allow the accommodation. Many accommodations, however, do not require any monetary or administrative burdens. Whether your employer can accommodate your religious practices will depend upon the nature of the work and the workplace. Usually, your employer can allow you to use lunch or other break times for religious prayer. If you require additional time for prayer, your employer can require you to make up the time.

Employers must give time off for the Sabbath or holy days except in an emergency, unless the employee works in key health and safety occupations or the employee's presence is critical to the company on any given day. This time off does not have to be paid, however. If employees don't come to work, employers may give them leave without pay, may require the amount of time to be made up, or may allow the employee to charge the time against any other leave with pay, except sick pay.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by time0ut on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:03PM (#19221472)
Thank you. Would this then hinge on whether or not he discussed it with them before hand? I'm obviously not a lawyer.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by phonon on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:43PM (#19221752)
The fired him (retaliation) for asserting his religious requirements (according to him), and specifically told him they didn't care about his religious requirements now or in the future.

(Link to case https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19221564 )

That's bad.

Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by mindslight on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:59PM (#19221429)
Yes, the real problem is that Yelp was attempting to prohibit the guy from doing anything else outside of work without even paying him for it! Unfortunately this is no longer even illegal, as overtime laws were destroyed through the "exempt" loophole. So he is (we are) left grasping at straws for something specific that was illegal to have prohibited rather than expecting congress would actually do anything for workers and address the general problem.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by jhall1468 on Thursday February 21, 2019 @05:49PM (#19221324)
I agree with you. That said, this case is likely just forcing a payout. While Yelp would be unlikely to lose the case, even if he did say all the crap the former employee claimed, they certainly don't want this as national news for several months while it makes its way through the courts.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by thirdsun on Friday February 22, 2019 @01:58AM (#19223649)
My first thought as well. The religious aspect of the issue should be irrelevant. Expecting your employees to be available at all times is absurd regardless of belief and shouldn't need any religious defence.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by mannykannot on Thursday February 21, 2019 @06:50PM (#19221797)
As it happens, this particular incident does appear to have a religious-observance aspect. It is also the case, however, that religious observances have specific protections in US law (stemming from the 1st. Amendment), making this aspect of the incident particularly suitable for making a case against the employer. If this is so, then, regardless of whether one is particularly religious, one should reflect on the implication that demanding 24/7/375 fealty is not regarded, prima facie, as abuse.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by bdhess on Thursday February 21, 2019 @07:36PM (#19222055)
The first amendment has nothing to say about private discrimination on the basis of religion.
Re:Yelp Fired Manager After He Didn't Take Calls, Check Emai... by mannykannot on Thursday February 21, 2019 @08:44PM (#19222393)
I see what you mean - it seems to be title VII of the Civil Rights Act that is relevant here - or did you have some other point in mind?