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Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by thrownaway954 on Monday January 28, 2019 @05:30AM (#19016400)
I think articles like this are dangerous to us addicts cause it solidifies the "this is just a phase" mentality that many of us have. They sampled 42,000 people, but how many others had to die, have their lives ruined, or ever worst, hurt someone they loved or end up in prison because of their addiction?

YES I'm sure some of us can quit on our own or can "grow out" of our addiction if we don't end up dead or in jail first. I'm sure there cancer patients out there who are cured and have never had a single treatment, but you can bet that most people with cancer get some sort of treatment and help.

Bottom line is, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO AT IT ALONE. There is help available, so why not use it? AA, NA, HA ,CA, Wellbriety, going to therapy, medical professional, it's all there to help so use it. You doesn't HAVE to take 15 years to "grow out" of alcoholism if you can get the support you need to help you quit sooner.

Tonight I'm speaking at a DETOX and I suggest that they go through the 60 day RIT program that it offers so they have a better chance of beating their addiction. Again, please don't wait to get help. You don't have to fight this battle alone.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by d--b on Monday January 28, 2019 @08:19AM (#19017185)
I think that these articles are there to fight a common view that addicts are hopeless people that in no way can put their life back together unless they go through severe medical and psychological treatment.

The problem of wanting to "cure" addiction by using drastic measures like cold turkey or rehab is that it may not be the best course of action. Perhaps it is better for many people to acknowledge that the addiction is in fact "just a phase", and that a proper way of dealing with it would be to accompany the addiction so that the person wouldn't be harmful to himself and others, until the person reaches the point where they "outgrow" it naturally.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by maceurt on Monday January 28, 2019 @10:59AM (#19018443)
I have read, I can't remember where, that actually going cold turkey for hard drug (heroin, crack, etc.) addictions is a lot more effective than gradual decrease in use. Furthermore, many addicts have predisposed brains to addiction that makes them not able to moderate addictive behaivour.

I agree that rehab is not always the best solution, because it does not teach the user to wilingly bot use drugs, just forces them not too.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by cc-d on Monday January 28, 2019 @01:13PM (#19019652)
>I have read, I can't remember where, that actually going cold turkey for hard drug (heroin, crack, etc.) addictions is a lot more effective than gradual decrease in use

You can't just group all "hard" (what exactly does this mean anyway? Is diamorphine "hard" but morphine not? Codeine? Tramadol?) drugs under one umbrella. You ESPECIALLY need the appreciate the differences between, for example, benzodiazepine (are these "hard"?) withdrawals and crack withdrawals. An addict withdrawing from crack/coke mainly needs sleep and nourishment, "cold Turkey" is a realistic option. An addict who is physically dependent on benzodiazepines will have a grand mal seizure and die if you attempted to force them to "cold Turkey". Gabaergic withdrawal (alcohol/ benzodiazepines/barbiturates/GHB) is a death sentence, opioid withdrawal (diamorphine/morphine/ methadone) sincerely feels like a death sentence but is very rarely lethal (and then almost always a result of dehydration), stimulant withdrawal (meth/coke) is never lethal. I've oversimplified greatly, but I think you get the point.

Also note how alcohol withdrawals are often lethal. Very few people classify alcohol as a "hard" drug comparable in seriousness to heroin, but from a physiological perspective alone, alcohol dependency is far more damaging to the user than heroin dependency. A dependent user could use opioids every day of their life and die at a normal age, completely healthy (the negative health effects from opioids are almost entirely a result of users being forced to turn to a black market). This cannot be said for alcohol.

Before advocating for any policy in regards to a serious public health issue, please at minimum read up on the literature regarding physical drug dependency, the differences between the major classes of commonly abused drugs, and which (humane) approaches other countries have tried which have yielded positive results.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by warent on Monday January 28, 2019 @11:21AM (#19018662)
Not sure where you heard that but it's definitely not true for genuine opiate addiction which can actually kill you from the withdrawal. Addiction can be a serious medical condition that requires real medical attention, not just stronger willpower or something.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/add.13512

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by pliftkl on Monday January 28, 2019 @09:48AM (#19017760)
I think you're broadly labeling "us addicts" here, which is sort of the point of the article. I outgrew my addiction (but I'm not suggesting that anyone who needs help just "wait it out!" - see below).

The article is essentially asserting that of the people who clinically qualify as addicts earlier in their lives, about half of those people don't by the time they are in their 30's, and that the pursuit of treatment doesn't necessarily correlate to that outcome.

That isn't to say that there are people who absolutely need to treat addiction as a disease, and that viewing the next drink as an existential threat isn't an important part to their recovery.

When I was a teenager and in my 20's, my drinking and drug use was out of control, and I did enter treatment including 12 step programs. Those weren't particularly effective at keeping me sober in part because of the mantra that "hey, you have a disease, and you don't have control". That's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy to a younger brain.

What ultimately happened to me was that the life I wanted wasn't compatible with drug and alcohol abuse, and I moved on in my mid-20's.

I do occasionally drink now (in my 40's), but there's no fathomable way that I could see myself going back to what I did when I was young, and no clinician would diagnose me as an addict or alcoholic today.

So yes, the article is dangerous if you are part of the subset to which it doesn't apply. The question is whether we should be treating all addicts in the same way. One answer might be "use the disease model on all addicts because it may apply". Another might be to try to treat this as a leaning disorder.

Right now, we don't know the answer, so I agree with much of your practical advice: if you need help, it's out there, in the form of free communities of 12 step programs, as well as medical treatment programs.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by avar on Monday January 28, 2019 @05:53AM (#19016474)
You're 100% right that people shouldn't have an attitude of "this harmful part of my life will fix itself". Although I don't think just observing that you'll likely "grow out" of it makes the article dangerous. People also tend to grow out of violent behavior (how many hyper-violent 20 v.s. 80 year olds are there?). That doesn't mean it's not harmful behavior when you're younger, or that it doesn't need to be addressed at that point.

But it's just as dangerous to propose that simply because you have issues in your life that some religiously-motivated program like AA is the way to go.

We should provide people with help that's scientifically developed and proved to be effective, and AA and its various sister programs are neither of those. They're just "get the drunks to worship god instead" programs. In recent years they've gained the thin veneer of talking about a "higher power" instead of "god", without becoming any more scientific or empirically-supported as a result.

If you have a problem with addiction start by talking to your physician, not a church group.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by thrownaway954 on Monday January 28, 2019 @06:47AM (#19016722)
Your perception of AA is based on ignorance. AA is not a "get the drunks to worship god instead" program... It is suggested that you find a higher power, but not required. Remember..."Our book is meant to be suggested only, we realise we know only a little."

I go to Agnostic meetings that don't involve any prayer or spiritual aspect, just a group of drunks gathered together helping each other to stay sober. So if the whole religious or spiritual aspect of the program leaves a bad taste in your mouth, try finding a secular meeting in your area: https://secularaa.org/tsml_meeting/

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by avar on Monday January 28, 2019 @02:28PM (#19020289)
What am I supposedly ignorant about? That AA is a religious sobriety program? The next sentence of the "Our book..." quote you've cited is "God will disclose more to you and to us". So perhaps it's not not doing the work you think it is.

In any case, the motivation for my comment was to point out that many of these "xA" programs are inspired by the 12-step "AA" program. That program is not scientific, or even amenable to change as new evidence about the efficacy of sobriety comes in.

Rather, it's dogma. Whatever white-washing of AA's mention of "God" over the years as "higher power" doesn't change the fact that it's not science-based.

Does that mean it's completely useless? No, but as others have pointed out studies of its effectiveness are rather damning[1]. It just bears pointing out when treatments for addiction are discussed that AA is a dogma-based therapy, because many people suffering from addiction think AA is just what you're supposed to do.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_An...

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by thrownaway954 on Monday January 28, 2019 @04:56PM (#19021473)
"That AA is a religious sobriety program" - exactly that. It is a suggested spiritual sobriety program with an emphasis on "suggestive". It's not a religious program what-so-ever. They use the word God to incubus whatever "higher power" a member chooses (or chooses not to) believe in. I'll give you that God was an EXTREMELY POOR choice for the word, but it's what everyone could relate to at the time. In any case, don't let the fact that God is mentioned in the book confuse you, it's already confused most.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by taurath on Monday January 28, 2019 @07:24PM (#19022562)
This is disingenuous. The entire history of AA up to and including now (literally read any 12 step guide, 8+ steps mention God) is pushing a protestant christian philosophy that man is irreparably fallen and flawed and the only salvation is through a higher power, and that you must give up your self and any semblance of control to that abstraction.

It works for some, but anyone who says its not a christian organization is absolutely lying - its like taking the caramel coloring out of cola - its still cola, it still tastes like cola, you just took away the color that reminds people that its cola.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by QuantumYeti on Monday January 28, 2019 @07:01AM (#19016813)
There are secular AA programs. I attend a couple in my area, have found them to be extremely helpful as a support group, and would not label them as a "church group".

Physicians aren't a cure-all, because there's no guarantee they've been trained in addiction medicine. After a few doctor visits and them hearing the word "anxiety", you might just leave with a new prescription to Xanax or some other benzo, which could be a virtual death-sentence for someone with a dual-diagnosis.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by eeeeeeeeeeeee on Monday January 28, 2019 @07:32AM (#19016950)
I’m agnostic and probably about as liberal as they come. My brother is atheist and getting and staying sober through AA. The “god” can be anything you want it to be, as it is for him.

That is not to say that AA is for everyone, but this advice to just “talk to a physician” as if that is the only fix is absurd. Look at how many people are hooked on opioids after “talking to their physician.”

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by 0xcde4c3db on Monday January 28, 2019 @09:11AM (#19017507)
I never understood the "god can be anything you want" line. Five of the steps involve accepting "god" as an authority over your life, including "His will for us" and the power to "remove all these defects of character". It reminds me of Henry Ford's infamous "any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black"; i.e. you can have any god you want, as long as it's at least a metaphor for a personal god that deserves authority over your decisions and well-being. Your brother might have no problem with that sense of authority, but plenty of atheists do (e.g. believe that if Yahweh existed, He would be a tyrant undeserving of worship).
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by ZeroFries on Monday January 28, 2019 @09:40AM (#19017698)
You can reduce those to the authority of the laws of physics, if you want. Try defying the authority of gravity, for example. Then, have faith that the laws of physics will work in such a way that your brain will be altered and addiction no longer so strong.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by SketchySeaBeast on Monday January 28, 2019 @01:42PM (#19019916)
How does physics "remove all these defects of character"?
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by avar on Monday January 28, 2019 @02:31PM (#19020316)
It's accepted physics that all defects of character will be removed at the heat death of the universe :)
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by SketchySeaBeast on Monday January 28, 2019 @02:33PM (#19020329)
Removed, or frozen in perpetuity?
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by ZeroFries on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @03:35PM (#19029576)
The only way to alter one's character are through physics, presumably.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by justtopost on Monday January 28, 2019 @07:57AM (#19017075)
True, but predatory church groups abound. Motivations for helping people with addictions ranges from compassion, to dispassioned dominance and exploitation, with most being somewhere in between (money). This is not to say that they are all bad, but peverse incentives seem more common than most industries, even when the intentions are noble.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by simple_phrases on Monday January 28, 2019 @08:20AM (#19017191)
Exploitive and dominance-motivated people exist in the medical sphere, as well.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by coleifer on Monday January 28, 2019 @10:04AM (#19017919)
Almost everyone I know who is successfully clean and happy in 12-step had long ago exhausted all the options: doctor, priest/preacher, psychologist, moving to a new town, "going to the gym", etc. Nobody would ever (myself included) do 12-step because we actually think it would work. And yet it has worked for me when nothing else did.
[dead]
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by coleifer on Monday January 28, 2019 @10:52AM (#19018376)
It's my experience, and the comments seem like a relevant place to share it. You're welcome to disagree. You have your own anecdotes (drain on family), which you, too, are sharing.

For what it's worth, my wife, son, parents, siblings and co-workers all would say that 12 step has improved our relationships.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by electricEmu on Monday January 28, 2019 @11:20AM (#19018652)
That’s funny, it took leaving al-anon and AA before the people I knew having problems and their families got better. We all look back at both 12-step programs as very cult like, using religious-style pandering language.

The anecdotes are meaningless. AA can work for a small subset of individuals, but It makes no sense for America to push AA as a first line treatment. AA is not a treatment, it’s a self-help group with poor results.

Pardon my disdain, but promoting AA over other solutions is frustrating for this formerly silent family in America who are fed up with the 12 step answer.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by ux-app on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @03:03AM (#19024618)
Sounds like your family had a bad experience, do you think your personal experience nullifies the positive experience of others?
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by electricEmu on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:07AM (#19036214)
Either both positive and negative anecdotes, related to addiction treatment in America, are welcome and on topic for an addiction thread, or neither are.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by pfisch on Monday January 28, 2019 @06:18AM (#19016578)
Are you saying that there are no statistics that back up AA as effective?

I am pretty skeptical of a claim like that.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by simple_phrases on Monday January 28, 2019 @06:24AM (#19016616)
Efficacy rates are low, but so is almost every other intervention available.

It works for some people. It's also completely free, which you can't say about medical intervention. Around here, detox and rehab facilities have 6 month long waiting lists and cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by pfisch on Monday January 28, 2019 @09:01AM (#19017435)
Are you saying rehab facilities also don't work compared to a control group?

I am skeptical about that too. I'd be surprised if both rehab and AA don't have a statistically significant effect on addiction treatment.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by simple_phrases on Monday January 28, 2019 @08:46PM (#19022975)
No.

People tend to expect that rehab will cure addiction, and become disillusioned with the reality that addiction is a chronic illness. Relapse rates are high in chronic illnesses, like diabetes and hypertension, the latter having a relapse rate of 50%-75% according to the NIH. Addiction is no different, and its relapse rates are between 40%-60%, even with ongoing treatment. Efficacy rates will reflect this harsh (and often very expensive or deadly) truth.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by cc-d on Monday January 28, 2019 @02:05PM (#19020130)
The success rate of AA is somewhere around 5-10%. Perfectly accurate stats are hard to acquire due to the nature of the disease of addiction, and the programs themselves intentionally do not track efficacy rate (after all, a program based on religious ideology instead of actual evidence has hilariously become the defacto prescription for drug addiction in the american legal system. Why ruin a good thing?). You would achieve a similar efficacy rate by giving addicts a sugar pill and telling them it was a miracle drug that cures addiction.

Also instead of taking the time to write out multiple comments expressing your doubt as to the efficacy of AA, you could've found the information you needed in a single google search.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by ux-app on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @03:05AM (#19024625)
So what's the solution?
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by fitba1969 on Monday January 28, 2019 @07:06AM (#19016841)
The disease model of addiction ( a la AA) has been thoroughly discredited by science. Indeed believing in the disease model is a primary determinant of relapse. The incredible work of Stanton Peele in the US is the route that "addiction treatment" should move towards.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by xfitm3 on Monday January 28, 2019 @10:43AM (#19018289)
Dr Gabor Mate has also done fantastic work on addiction. Stanton Peele seems to share some viewpoints with Dr Mate.

"Dr. Maté's approach to addiction focuses on the trauma his patients have suffered and looks to address this in their recovery"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabor_Mat%C3%A9_(physician)

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by coleifer on Monday January 28, 2019 @10:01AM (#19017888)
I think about that often-quoted statistic about Vietnam veterans, most of whom used heroin while deployed, yet only about 5% came back and were full-on junkies. Stuff like 12-step is for that 5%...the folks who have already been to the doctor, the priest, the psychologist, and still can't get clean. Personally, I had to try everything else and completely run out of options before I was willing to try 12-step, which has worked. I also take meetings into detox, it's been very helpful for me and hopefully others. And of course, I don't believe there's any one way to get clean. I have my own experience, though, and that's what I can share.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by gnode on Monday January 28, 2019 @08:11AM (#19017137)
You don't have to go it alone, and some people benefit from help, but I think it's harmful to say people must rely on others, or in any way invalidate people's autonomous ability to escape addiction or overcome any cognitive obstacle.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by Mirioron on Monday January 28, 2019 @07:59AM (#19017085)
>Bottom line is, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO AT IT ALONE.

>if we don't end up in jail first

The former statement does not work because of the latter. Any additional person that knows about it is a risk to your freedom.

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by P_I_Staker on Monday January 28, 2019 @11:01AM (#19018455)
Can you elaborate on that if you see this? You're saying seeking treatment can increase the likelihood of jail? Not criticizing, I don't doubt it, but I'd be interested to know the ways that can happen. Your therapist / addiction specialist will snitch on you?
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by Mirioron on Monday January 28, 2019 @04:31PM (#19021266)
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I don't mean that a therapist will snitch on you, but there's always a chance. Maybe a cop doesn't like you and sniffs around for this stuff. Furthermore, there are a lot more people involved in therapy than just you and your therapist.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by xfitm3 on Monday January 28, 2019 @10:28AM (#19018129)
Except that there is a huge social stigma around being an addict. There is a incentive to hide it.
Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by thrownaway954 on Monday January 28, 2019 @05:00PM (#19021493)
oh and if you don't believe me... https://twitter.com/AndrewStellman/status/107722796317793484...

Never had someone tweeted one my comments before :)

Re:Most People With Addiction Grow Out of It (2014) by thrownaway954 on Monday January 28, 2019 @12:13PM (#19019116)
while true... same can be said about anything against the normal... it will take time, but society will come around. this is already happening but slowly.