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Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by jon-wood on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:03AM (#18909493)
> One-trip tickets on the Tube were surprisingly expensive, £4.90. This is likely a form of price discrimination for tourists, as the cost for the Oyster and Contactless payment cards is much lower.

My understanding of this is that its actually price discrimination against people buying paper tickets, as they're more likely to have problems at the gates and result in a queue backing up.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by alias_neo on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:30AM (#18909897)
That seems a bit steep, a day ticket is only a few pounds more.

As for recommendations for tourists, Oyster is great, but, there's really no need, a contactless bank card is capped at the same day and week rate as Oyster.

I've been commuting for the last year on my bank card, it's not the most financially efficient way, but it's not a lot more expensive (than a pre-paid pass).

Also bear in mind that a bank card will take ~2 seconds to scan at most stations' gates, versus milliseconds for an Oyster. It might seem trivial but at London rush hour it's an annoyance for you and everyone else.

One thing people also don't know is that at most stations, your card won't scan if you're standing between the gates, step back and scan or you'll just hold everyone up until you give up and walk away.

It's designed this way, I imagine, so that you don't scan while someone is still paying through the gate and have it close on you before you pass through.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by ido on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:24AM (#18910118)
I got an Oyster when visiting London a few years ago and taking public transit was still by a large margin more expensive than any other European city I've been to (and IIRC when available transit in the US is generally cheaper than in Europe).

I was really surprised at how expensive it was! Especially as the pound's value at the time was quite a bit higher than today.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by n4r9 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:07AM (#18911587)
Taking the tube is relatively expensive in London compared to Europe. Taking the bus is relatively cheap: £1.50 for any journey, including any number of changes up to 70 minutes after your first hop-on.

It's great that I can commute to work for a £3 round-trip with a change halfway if I choose not to cycle! Of course, that's in South-West London and even then the traffic can get pretty bad. In central it's probably nightmarish to do it regularly.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Brakenshire on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:59AM (#18910263)
Transport for London at the moment is fully self-funding from ticket prices, which I think is unusual elsewhere in Europe.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by urschrei on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:13AM (#18910317)
TfL is not fully self-funded, or even close to it. It derived 47% of its funding from fares in 2017/2018. https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/how-we-ar.... In fact, it's facing a large (close to £1 bn) deficit this year due to falling passenger numbers.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Brakenshire on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:44PM (#18917589)
Thanks for the correction. I think the 47% figure is misleading in this sense though, I mean to refer to the running and maintenance costs of the public transport service, but in fact of course TfL does various other things, including maintenance of the roads and contributions to large capital investments like Crossrail which will always mean public grants.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by alias_neo on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:34AM (#18910166)
It's pretty expensive yes.

Especially for lower paid commuters in London. Driving is also a non-starter if you work centrally so it's really your only option.

The only European city I recall being expensive compared to my usual commute was Geneva, Switzerland.

Eastern-bloc tend to be cheaper while the likes of Germany are closer to our prices.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by heavenlyblue on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:35AM (#18910423)
Hamburg is similar.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by ido on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:31AM (#18910979)
more than €5 for one direction? I doubt Hamburg is that expensive. Berlin transit is staggeringly cheaper than London.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by heavenlyblue on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:40AM (#18911372)
I don't know what you're on about, but I am paying £2.90 to get from Brockley to Shoreditch High Street to get to work (7 miles in total). That's the same price I would pay for a bus I believe.

People presume that Berlin is the center of Germany, when in fact it absolutely isn't. Hamburg is a much more wealthy city that Berlin. Here's [1] the ticket prices for Hamburg [1] and here's [2] the ticket prices for London, are you seeing much difference?

[1] https://www.hvv.de/en/tickets/single-day-tickets/overview [2] https://www.visitbritainshop.com/world/london-travelcard/

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by ido on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:14AM (#18911664)
I'm not super sure about the rings in Hamburg but: 7.80€ for "Hamburg AB All Day Ticket" vs £13.10 (=14.68€) for London zones 1-4 "1 day any time" from your links are a factor of 2 more expensive for London. As for what I'm on about the >5€ price for a single ride ticket: I simply took the OP at their word (they mentioned the ticket costing £4.90 in the quote above us - anecdotally I paid about that much when visiting London and staying at friends' places).

For Berlin I pay 760€ for a yearly ticket despite not living centrally (AB zone ticket still covers it). London zones 1-2 yearly ticket[1] is £1404 (=1574.45€) again factor of 2 more expensive.

When we lived in Vienna (a wealthy city, probably similar to Munich or Hamburg) transit prices were similar to Berlin (maybe even cheaper).

Not to mention that because London housing is so expensive most "common people" (who aren't living with room mates or are very wealthy) live in what we would consider a suburb rather than the city (in terms of distance from the city center) thus paying fares from further zones (iirc my friends at the time lived in zone 3 & were middle class professionals not paupers and/or with huge families).

[1] https://www.londontoolkit.com/briefing/travelcard.htm

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by jon-wood on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:03AM (#18921375)
If you're using Oyster or contactless payment there's a maximum fare that will be charged, after which all other travel is effectively free - this is different to a daily travel card. If you're staying within zone 1 & 2 that cap is £7, for a week fares will be capped at £35.10.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by xioxox on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @02:00PM (#18913830)
If I travelled into the centre of Munich every day (I'm in the 7th ring out of 16), it would cost me 1400 euros a year (a full network ticket would be 2700 euros!). That seems rather similar to London.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by ido on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @03:20AM (#18919127)
I don’t know about Munich, maybe it’s the exception in the German-speaking countries.

From 8 years of living in Vienna and 5 of living in Berlin transit costs were never significant to me & I never lived in the center of either city.

The numbers quoted from the links above line up with my gut feeling when visiting London (my feeling was even more extreme actually, but a few years ago the GBP was worth a lot more € than today).

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by heavenlyblue on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @11:39AM (#18922303)
Nor Vienna, nor Berlin are considered to be the business centres of Europe.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by ido on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @02:36PM (#18924206)
I never said anything about whether or not this is justified only that I was surprised it was that expensive & that it’s more expensive than other places I’ve been to (including NYC, if you want to talk about global business/financial centers).
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by sbuk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:19PM (#18914647)
Zone 4 is quite a way out.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by ido on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @03:14AM (#18919109)
Zones 1-4 is the cheapest day ticket available, that’s why I took it as an example. Feel free to look into the provided links if you think there’s a better example listed.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by sbuk on Friday January 18, 2019 @11:56AM (#18940625)
I'm not debating that. London is over x2 the size of Hamburg. Towns that are in zone 4 are around 15km from the center of London, in zone 6 it's close to 30km. I live in London and commute everyday, I'm acutely aware of the cost of travel in the city.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by sincarne on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @01:51AM (#18918786)
I don't know how it works in London, but I just moved to Cambridge from Canada. Our contactless cards would not work on the bus system. We had to pay cash until we got our UK banking sorted out. That's not an option on TFL, so visitors just have a plan B if you plan to use your bank card.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by jon-wood on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:04AM (#18921384)
If your contactless card doesn't work you can buy an Oyster card from underground stations and most convenience stores which can have a balance added to it with cash.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by hardlianotion on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:59AM (#18911516)
I have not noticed this time delay for my bank contactless card.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by alias_neo on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:34PM (#18913593)
It only seems to affect some stations (the ones I frequent at least), I've always assumed is due do an additional API call to the banks system on top of the normal Oyster check, but it's certainly slower than Oyster even when it's not this slow.

I haven't tried with a different bank though, so it could be bank specific.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:48AM (#18909720)
It's a tactic to discourage the use of the paper tickets; they want to get rid of them, the Oyster card allows for much faster movement of people inside the stations and due to the gates much lower fraud.

In NL we've moved to a card system like that some years ago; the amount of people traveling without a ticket in the subways and trains has declined by a lot, and consequently, crime and violence against the train staff that fined them if they were checked. Likewise, staff could be reallocated from appearing as a big gang of ticket checkers at the exits of random stations to other tasks.

They do tend to put at least one guy near the gates though, for one to help out people that have trouble with the system, and on the other to discourage people jumping the gates. They're quite high so that's quite a feat, but there's also a builtin system so that it opens if pushed hard enough (in case of emergency).

Anyway. Ticket machines are big and expensive machines.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by tialaramex on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:30AM (#18910395)
The person near the gates is mandatory (a legal requirement), if the staff aren't available to provide that person the gates will be switched off (so you can just walk through) or they close the route entirely (and if it's the only route that also means closing the station).

The gates are designed so that an adult can force their way through despite the gate being closed, but nevertheless in a fire or other emergency situation you don't want to wait for fleeing people to force the gates, so there must be a trained human available to command the gates to all open immediately. In a tube station there will be a control booth with CCTV of all areas somewhere to direct operations - the gate still must be supervised by someone physically nearby, not solely from the booth. Flow controls that don't prevent you fleeing from an emergency (e.g. the "Do Not Enter!" flashing signs at some tube entrances that can be activated to prevent overcrowding, or the changeable internal direction markers that let them send unfamiliar users over a longer alternate route to their destination) are controlled from the booth though.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by sooheon on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:07AM (#18910051)
Why not just phase out the paper tickets? They disappeared in Korea after just a couple years of the electronic cards being on market, it seems like.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Symbiote on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:46AM (#18910214)
The national railway system is integrated with the same type of paper tickets. You can buy a ticket from a station in northern Scotland to Brighton (changing in London) and it will operate the barriers on the London Underground. It's also readable by the ticket checker on the rural service in Scotland.

There are posters all over London pushing people to use contactless, it's not an attempt to swindle visitors.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by LeonidasXIV on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:19AM (#18911234)
The EasyCard in Taiwan (basically an Oyster card equivalent which can also be used at shops, so more like HK's Octopus card) can be used on trains throughout the country, so train connectivity can be done without paper tickets.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by n4r9 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:16AM (#18909549)
It's a bit of both I reckon. Even a lot of non-London Brits don't realise how easy it is to get an oyster card in the station, and very few know that you can just use contactless payments.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by sefrost on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:31AM (#18909618)
More than 50% of pay-as-you-go journeys are made with contactless as of April 2018, so I don't think "very few know" is fair (fare, heh).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/contactless-top-line-figure.pdf

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by setquk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:14AM (#18909825)
It's mainly regular Londoners who use contactless I think. We're an extremely advanced city when it comes to public transport payments. But at the same time you need to be able to digest the numerous rules around it like daily and weekly caps etc.

I've got so used to this that a few months ago I did a bus journey in a medium sized town and it felt totally backwards having a physical ticket.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by alias_neo on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:38AM (#18909929)
I went out east to lakeside one day to do some shopping with my wife; we got as far as Dartford, then there was a bus we had to get, I tapped my Oyster on the reader, it didn't work, the driver gave me an odd look, so I tapped my bank card, it didn't work, another odd look, so I said, "it's not working, do you take cards?" He looked at me as if it'd just offended his mother. "No" the driver replied. So I asked "What do you take?" And he replied "Cash". I was slightly taken aback.

This bus station is in the middle of nowhere just past Dartford, there isn't a building in sight let alone a cash machine, so, I looked in my wallet to find only my single, brand new, plastic £5 note with a palindrome serial number I'd been keeping. With a sigh I handed it over and we got our bus.

Lakeside was crap.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by setquk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:57AM (#18910002)
That's exactly the problem. You pass an invisible line somewhere that TfL stops existing and you're getting mugged straight up in redneck country.

Lakeside is indeed crap.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by dazc on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:16AM (#18910895)
Outside of central London a lot of bus companies either have their own card system or none at all, of course the card for one company rarely works with others.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by denverbroncos on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @09:38AM (#18921166)
you could go Fenchurch st to chafford hundred and walk over the pedestrian bridge for I believe £5.90 return.

maybe not ideal for your circumstances but food for thought

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by jdietrich on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:42AM (#18909938)
I use contactless when I travel to London - as a visitor, it's far more convenient than buying an Oyster and far cheaper than paper tickets.

>But at the same time you need to be able to digest the numerous rules around it like daily and weekly caps etc.

The price caps are quite easy to understand - you just tap your card when you travel and you'll always be charged the lowest applicable fare. You don't have to think about whether you need to buy a daily or weekly ticket, because you'll never be charged more than the daily or weekly fare cap.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by setquk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:54AM (#18909990)
The price caps are but it's a bit of a pain if you forget to touch out somewhere or have to use national rail etc.

Plus sometimes it does actually go wrong. I have to request about 2-3 refunds a year where I've done the same route and not forgotten a thing.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by n4r9 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:52AM (#18909973)
> You don't have to think about whether you need to buy a daily or weekly ticket

If you're not wealthy, it's certainly worth knowing whether or not you've reached a cap.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by robjan on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:19AM (#18909566)
I think it's because they have to maintain ticket machines for the people who choose to buy single tickets rather than use their Oyster/Contactless. It means maintaining the legacy ticket infrastructure which is less efficient and more time consuming. Anyone can get an Oyster card at a vending machine and most people in the developed world have a contactless payment card.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by setquk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:15AM (#18909829)
Despite using contactless via Apple Pay, I don't actually have a contactless debit card. HSBC never issue me them even though I asked!

I'm not sure contactless is as ubiquitous as we think it is.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by hardlianotion on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:03AM (#18911551)
May not be, but my local coffee shop in suburban Brockley no longer takes cash, which seems a pretty strong signal to me.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by laurencerowe on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @02:40PM (#18914202)
My HSBC UK Visa debit card has had contactless support for at least five years. Perhaps just report it lost to get a new one issued. Even my US debit and credit cards have it now (with the exception of a metallic Amazon Prime card.)
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by setquk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:34PM (#18914828)
I’ve lost it twice. Still no contactless :(
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by PaulRobinson on Friday January 18, 2019 @11:28AM (#18940406)
Do not buy single tickets on the tube, ever.

They are designed to discourage you, and to push you towards solutions that are better for TfL and the environment: contactless cards.

Get a contactless bank card, Apple or Android pay on your phone or smart watch, or buy an Oyster card.

If you know you'll be travelling a lot for a week or two, look into a 7 day travel card which you load onto an Oyster card, and gives you unlimited travel for the zones you're interested in.

You can still travel outside those zones, but will pay a fare increment.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by teknologist on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:32AM (#18909629)
This reminds me of the Swiss system, where there's a notion of the "half fare card" which is conventionally supplied by companies in Switzerland to their workers. 50% of the ticket price is essentially a "tourist tax", which is unavoidable by buying a different kind of ticket (like an Oyster card) at the station. I think it's pretty smart.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Symbiote on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:55AM (#18910248)
That's nothing like the situation in London.

There is nothing to stop visitors from using either contactless card payments, Android/Apple pay, or an Oyster card. Oyster cards are easily purchased from all stations, especially places many people arrive like Heathrow Airport. They're promoted on websites aimed at tourists like visitlondon.com, and covered in every guidebook to the city. The £5 deposit and any remaining balance is refundable at many machines, and doesn't expire.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by tome on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:38AM (#18910185)
> 50% of the ticket price is essentially a "tourist tax", which is unavoidable by buying a different kind of ticket ... at the station

Do you mean "avoidable"?

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by teknologist on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:53AM (#18910514)
I do not. I mean it's not avoidable that way, because there's no ticket with the discount available at the station.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by dbdjfjrjvebd on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:52AM (#18910779)
Can't you buy the half fare card on the spot and then use it?
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by dagw on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:16AM (#18910891)
You can, but it will cost ~$120-150 if I recall correctly, so unless you're making several trips it's rarely worth it.

They do have a 'secret' ticket called a Swiss Transfer ticket which will take you from any airport to any train station and back for a much cheaper price than a normal train ticket. However you cannot buy it in Switzerland, but have to order online before your departure.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by raverbashing on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:25AM (#18909587)
People should just buy the Oyster, problem solved and it's cheaper unless you're making only one or two trips
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by IneffablePigeon on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:40AM (#18909677)
At this point contactless has enough consumer adoption to be the easier option. If you're a tourist and don't have a contactless card you can use Google pay etc.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by alehander42 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:02AM (#18910029)
however, you are (maybe) being more anonymous, if you use a normal oyster(if you haven't added personal info to it)
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by niccolop on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:15AM (#18910083)
And Apple Pay.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by lozenge on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:34AM (#18909645)
You can get an Oyster refund from machines in almost every station now. It's cheaper even for a single trip.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by chrisseaton on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:02AM (#18910028)
Why use Oyster over contactless? I don’t want to carry yet another card.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by johnnycab on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:23PM (#18912868)
Oyster vs Contactless

Oyster

+ prepaid - load it up and go

+ the system manages the maximum fares

+ automatic refunds for 'minor' corrections/errors

+ app available to track transactions albeit not real-time

+ can be registered online to receive reports and the ability to manage account

+ max fares for no-touch are sandboxed i.e. in red up to a certain amount + no journeys, until they are resolved and/or further funds are added to clear the event

Contactless

All of the above with some caveats

- no limit on credit/debit cards i.e. if the pad fails to recognise touch-in/out events it results in a maximum fare. These events might also incur additional charges depending on your issuer

+ there are nuances due to misaligned systems and thus exists a cheaper way of calculating weekly maximum fare when acting as a 'Travelcard'

= refunds have a similar route but with added protection of consumer laws. YMMV

Oyster/Contactless can also be used on certain river services and the Emirates Air-line.

Due to implementation, there is a high-latency between touch events and notifications from the app. So, it might be prudent for some to limit the expenditure.

As for carrying less plastic, Revolut might be an option? However, as a short to medium term visitor, Oyster makes more sense - even considering the refundable deposit.

https://tfl.gov.uk/

http://mappinglondon.co.uk/

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by chrisseaton on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:15PM (#18913416)
> Oyster/Contactless can also be used on certain river services and the Emirates Air-line.

You can buy an airline ticket on Emirates... using your Oyster card?

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by johnnycab on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @01:27PM (#18913529)
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Symbiote on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:58AM (#18910255)
The only reason would be for regular visitors who don't have British bank cards, but do pay an unreasonable transaction fee to their bank for foreign purchases.

TFL gather together all journeys made per day, so no matter how many journeys are made with the same contactless card there will be one charge made. However, an awful foreign bank might charge $2 per transaction, which could be more than the refundable deposit on an Oyster card.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by dbbk on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @09:38AM (#18911355)
It's more nuanced than that. I have to use Oyster over contactless because it's the only way to get the 1/3rd discount when you have a 16-25 or 26-30 railcard. They can't currently be connected to a contactless card.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by chrisseaton on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:24AM (#18910368)
I thought they also grouped into a week ticket?
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by lozenge on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:14AM (#18910882)
You would still be charged every day until you reach the cap, then not charged until the next Monday.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by amigiac on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:34AM (#18910698)
It takes half a second to scan rather than a second with a bank card. Gotta keep the queue moving. ;)
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by tim333 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:26AM (#18910376)
You can get monthly and annual passes on Oyster, not contactless, which are cheaper and have some other benefits like not fineing you if you touch in and not out.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by shrikant on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:35AM (#18911854)
I get an annual travelcard on it. This works out to marginally cheaper on Tube charges overall, but there's another benefit to it as well.

A slightly better draw is that you also get a Network Rail Gold card, which entitles you to a 33% discount on some train journeys. The partner and I use this quite frequently when visiting various parts of the UK!

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by fyfy18 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:28AM (#18910671)
Contactless can't be used for monthly and annual travelcards, as well as concessions. Additionally the capping works slightly different, for example if you only use buses or trams they have a weekly cap that only works with Oyster.

For most visitors, contactless will give the same prices as Oyster, and is a lot cheaper than paper tickets.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by novocaine on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:36AM (#18909654)
I didn't even realise you could buy paper tickets. You can use contactless credit cards and apple pay directly on the gate, so there's no reason to buy one.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by robin_reala on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:47AM (#18909715)
I usually had a paper ticket in London because I’d be coming in from Guildford - the mag strip on the paper ticket you buy for your commute into London also encoded a travelcard for tube usage.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Nursie on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:10AM (#18909812)
Still the case now, a lot of train tickets-with-travelcard are paper.

Just two weeks ago I was finally able to get an oyster-like card from South West Rail that works with the train and the tube. Progress, finally!

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by pbalau on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:51AM (#18909971)
Maybe there should be a generic oyster card, that should work for all public transportation systems in uk. One physical token, linked to many accounts.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by tialaramex on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:37AM (#18910430)
The standard for this exists, it is named ITSO. You will not be surprised to learn that although many local transport systems issue cards with ITSO logos they don't actually interoperate in a useful fashion since different local authorities and operators have contradictory requirements.

For example in Bingley (Yorkshire) where my mother lives, and in Southampton (on the South Coast) where I live, the buses use ITSO smartcards. But you can't take a ride on her bus with my smartcard.

Contactless bank cards do work on both systems though, and on the London transport network. So "Use a credit card" ends up being the "one physical token" solution.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by pbalau on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @10:12AM (#18911640)
> But you can't take a ride on her bus with my smartcard.

Even if I put some money on that card, via her bus' payment system? As in, I go to a tfl ticket machine, touch, put money on, touch again and then I can use the card on the underground. Then I go to Southampton, go to a ticket machine, touch, put money on, touch again, then I can use the card on the Southampton's transit system.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by tialaramex on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:39PM (#18917229)
Unlike Oyster, you usually can't load "money" into ITSO cards. In Southampton you can load "journeys" or "season tickets" and I think the same in Bingley. I put journeys on my Southampton card because I don't use a bus for weeks at a time. But you do that by going to a web site with ID for the local card, there's no way that I've found to go "Er, I have a different ITSO card from somewhere else".
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Nursie on Thursday January 17, 2019 @07:24AM (#18930202)
> As in, I go to a tfl ticket machine, touch, put money on, touch again and then I can use the card on the underground. Then I go to Southampton, go to a ticket machine, touch, put money on, touch again, then I can use the card on the Southampton's transit system.

Literally just tried this with the Southampton card in London against a tfl machine. No Dice.

Shame, but yeah, not really surprising.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Nursie on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:37AM (#18911011)
It's Southampton that I'm in too, as of about two weeks ago you can now get the card that operates the train gates at central and oyster gates in London. About 8 years after they put in the gates...

Baby Steps!

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by Nursie on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:27AM (#18910127)
That would be nice :)

I think the fragmented nature of the operating companies probably doesn't help. Maybe with time!

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by vertex-four on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:10AM (#18910063)
If you have incredibly poor credit, you can’t even get a contactless debit card from many banks.

A transport network needs to be designed so that everybody can use it - that means being able to access it with cash.

Even Oyster’s £5 deposit per card can be an issue for some people.

Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by tialaramex on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:44AM (#18910465)
You don't need credit to have a contactless debit card, they're just locked down to require online transactions so that it's impossible to go overdrawn. In normal operation a TfL gate is online (ie able to talk to your card issuer) so it can work with any type of card.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by vertex-four on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @08:02AM (#18910826)
Sure, but many basic bank accounts (those available to people with extremely poor credit history and no income) don't have a contactless debit card anyway, such as the one Bank of Scotland does: https://www.bankofscotland.co.uk/bankaccounts/compare-curren...
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by jon-wood on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:17AM (#18921507)
TfL gates aren't online in anything but the most basic way - the first time you use a contactless card on TfL each day they'll place a hold for 10p to verify the card is valid. They then modify that to request the total cost of travel for the previous day after that.
Re:Field notes: London, England (2018) by denverbroncos on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @09:40AM (#18921181)
flexbasic from nationwide issues a contactless card from the get go if you don't get offered a "normal" current account. also supports apple/google/samsung pay.

https://www.nationwide.co.uk/products/current-accounts/flexb...