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Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by spectre256 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:53PM (#18871384)
I "accidentally" worked at amazon for a few weeks when a company I had just joined was acquired by them.

I knew it was time to start looking when I was informed that I had to get prior permission to do ANY open source contributions even on my own hardware on my own time. That's just not feasible logistically and above and beyond the general "don't write open source that competes with us or on our our time/hardware without permission" rule most reasonable companies have.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by Bahamut on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:02PM (#18871426)
Problem is, you could potentially encroach on a big company's interests without knowing so, i.e. they're working in [insert space] in secret, or create an ethical issue for the company. Truth is, excepting maybe Netflix, the rest of FAANG requires you to get approvals.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by MereInterest on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:29PM (#18871532)
That is entirely possible, but not at all a problem. If something is being done in secret, so that the employee doesn't know that the other division is working on it, then there are no trade secrets that would be divulged by working on something similar.

That companies require you to get approval to work on something on your own time is fundamentally absurd. If I were a carpenter, I would not need permission to make a table. If I wrote ads, I would not need permission to write a book. That we think it reasonable for open source contributions to require company approval show that there is a severe overstepping of bounds on the part of the company.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by skybrian on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:47PM (#18871600)
People outside a company will not believe that employees of the company keep secrets from each other, at least when it suits them to believe otherwise.

So like it or not, if it looks like there're a conflict of interest (even if there isn't), people will blame it on the company.

So I don't really think it's so bad that they want to know what you're working on, provided that approval is usually granted.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by MereInterest on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:45AM (#18872013)
Asking for approval, even if that approval is typically granted, still implies that they have the authority to refuse permission. The farthest that the employer's moral authority extends is to ask politely to be informed. Not to require to be informed, and certainly not to require approval.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by chii on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:40AM (#18872426)
May be the permission should be flipped - the company has to ask the employee for approval to stop the opensource project.

It would work by having the employee list their projects, and the company will, when they find a conflict or some shared interest, ask for the employee to volunteer to stop their project. The employee can refuse, but typically won't.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by int_19h on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:26PM (#18871514)
Microsoft doesn't. You're only required to get pre-approval in case of conflicts of interest.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by saagarjha on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:58AM (#18872282)
> You're only required to get pre-approval in case of conflicts of interest.

Given the extremely diverse set of things that Microsoft works on, much of which is likely done without you being disclosed on it, how can you be sure that your project is not a conflict of interest?

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by tallanvor on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:19AM (#18873319)
Conflict of interest = something you are directly involved with at work, or potentially worked on for the company previously. For example, if you're on the SQL Server team then contributing to SQLLite would reasonably be considered a conflict of interest, but contributions to the Linux kernel wouldn't be.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by saagarjha on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:08PM (#18876278)
Even if your company works on a direct competitor to Linux?
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:34AM (#18872858)
By asking?
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by tialaramex on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:30AM (#18873654)
This. I have it in my contracts or a rider if they don't like amending the contract itself. I write code, when I stop working for you for the day I still write code. Yes it's lucky that I can get paid to do the main thing I enjoy, but you aren't paying me for the stuff I do off the clock. I will let you know about any major pieces of software I write (not like twenty line Python scripts for managing my music) and if you detect a conflict that's the moment to object, if you do then I'll work on something else, otherwise I own it outright and that's fair.

Good employers don't want to abuse you, and in turn don't want to get abused, drawing a line is something they can understand and their lawyers can get their heads around. "This is mine, this is yours".

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by rad_gruchalski on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:06PM (#18876260)
Who decides what's the conflict of the interest. Developers?
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by int_19h on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:09PM (#18879826)
Ultimately, if there's a disagreement over this, it would be the courts, since it's in the employment contract.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by rad_gruchalski on Friday January 18, 2019 @01:47PM (#18941724)
Right, but once the devs release something valuable into the wild, well, the cat is out of the bag. The implications can be seriously damaging to the company. It can be as severe as invalidating patents or infinging patents belonging to other companies. Can be evenvia a dependency. I can’t believe devs make those decisions without any supervision.

However, if that is the case, I’d love to know how so one can implement similar processes internally!

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by TheDong on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:02AM (#18871665)
Every company that is based on california, or that employs you in california, is better.

No matter what the non-compete says, if you're in CA, you can use your own hardware and non-work time to develop anything that doesn't directly compete with your employer/dayjob and doesn't use trade secrets/IP from the company.

Amazon though is mostly based in Washington, where no such law exists, so sweeping non-competes are legal.

The above is the reason that there is a difference between various FAANG companies. Even if the company policy requires you to get approval, if it really isn't a work-related piece of code, you can simply tell them to pound sand and CA will have your back.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by quantumwannabe on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:44AM (#18872219)
This is misleading. While non-competes are enforceable in Washington, employers can not force employees to sign away the rights to inventions produced on their own time without employer resources.

Compare https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=49.44.140 to the equivalent CA law: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... . It's essentially the same wording.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by brlewis on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:09AM (#18873532)
Isn't "invention" a patent term? Not all creative work is invention.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by saagarjha on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:55AM (#18872261)
> No matter what the non-compete says, if you're in CA, you can use your own hardware and non-work time to develop anything that doesn't directly compete with your employer/dayjob and doesn't use trade secrets/IP from the company.

What if you work for a company that happens to have a stake in basically every field of technology?

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by rectang on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:21AM (#18872351)
This is one of two reasons why I work for a small company, and also why I left another small company when it was acquired by a large company -- CA 2870 only offers meaningful protection when your employer isn't active in the relevant field of endeavor.

I don't want to compete with my employer, I just want to write some sound software on my own time and to maintain my ability to contribute in open source administration. It offends me that the state of the industry is such that I'm expected to sign away my soul on taking any software development job.

(The other main reason I won't work for a big is that I don't want to work 40 hours each week but the bigs won't budge on that.)

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by TaylorAlexander on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:27PM (#18871518)
It may be reasonable for them to do this, but it may also be reasonable for individuals to decide the practice is not worth enduring for them to work at such a place.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by hodgesrm on Thursday January 10, 2019 @11:12AM (#18874894)
VMware requires approvals even for own-time projects. They don't put up artificial barriers in my experience; there's a very simple process for declaring outside projects and approval is quick as long as it's not viewed as competitive. I thought their approach seemed reasonable for a big company with a large IP portfolio.

It was not always this way--VMware has become much more open source friendly over the last few years.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by taurath on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:28PM (#18871528)
Not even open source - most googlers I know will not code anything even volunteer community projects outside of work because if they were involved google would claim it was theirs.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by chooseaname on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:50AM (#18874183)
It's entirely possible that the big company's interests could encroach upon my open source project, too. Why do they get a pass?
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by BeetleB on Thursday January 10, 2019 @10:19AM (#18874418)
>Truth is, excepting maybe Netflix, the rest of FAANG requires you to get approvals.

Is this really true? In my company (not FAANG, but a big one), you need approval only if what you do in your spare time has overlap with the work you are doing in your job. What the rest of the company is doing is immaterial.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by dwmw2 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:28PM (#18878389)
It's a big company, and I don't know how long ago your experience is or what your position was.

My experience, in my part of the company, in 2019, is that stuff I do outside "work" is my own business. I contribute to open source projects all over the place.

As long as I actually do my day job during the daytime, woe betide anyone (other than my wife and family) who tells me what I should be doing with my non-work hours, on unrelated software projects.

They even let me release my skunkworks Pidgin Linux client for Chime under LGPL (although I did have to ask permission for that one as I did a bunch of it during the day).

In fact even for work hours when I'm working on Linux, we've made progress. Once upon a time you had to file a ticket to legal for every patch series that was submitted upstream.

Now we have a policy (again, in our part of the company) that your internal code review submission must have a comment on the upstream status of your patch — is it already upstream, is it going upstream, and if not, WHY NOT?

And all you need in the way of permission to do so is to get the nod from myself or a number of other people right there in that code review.

Is it perfect? No.

Do we still have to catch up and make it as easy for other projects (like Xen, in my day-to-day work) as it is for Linux? Yes.

Is it a massive improvement on what it was like before? Hell yes.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by spectre256 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:59PM (#18880400)
My experience is from early 2013. I guess that is 6 years ago now :) Glad to hear things have improved a bit.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by zootm on Friday January 11, 2019 @04:32AM (#18882043)
I've worked at Amazon since 2007 and I can confirm it has gotten a lot better over that time, especially more recently.

I have, in the deep deep past, experienced serious strife with the older policies, and obviously nothing is perfect, but it's gotten to the point where I don't really think about the policy.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by senderista on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:35AM (#18871768)
Not just that, when I was there (2013-2014), you couldn’t even post a line of code on Stack Overflow or participate in any MOOC with coding assignments without prior approval. (The security folks couldn’t do any CTFs either.) I doubt any of their competitors have such extreme policies (except maybe Apple, who knows).
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by saagarjha on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:56AM (#18872274)
Apple allows for participating in CTFs, at least under the usual "in your own time, using your own hardware, representing yourself and not the company".
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by wyldfire on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:02AM (#18871667)
> I knew it was time to start looking when I was informed that I had to get prior permission to do ANY open source contributions even on my own hardware on my own time.

This attitude seems kinda common, unfortunately. The critical issue is probably what the boundaries for 'work for hire' are. CA law [1] offers protections. Spolsky [2] offers detailed real-world context.

[1] http://law.justia.com/california/codes/lab/2870-2872.html

[2] http://www.brightjourney.com/q/working-company-intellectual-...

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by amelius on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:55AM (#18872702)
I don't see how that is legally enforceable if they pay you only for 8 hours/day as opposed to 24 hours/day.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by nwsm on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:35AM (#18874066)
They aren't paid hourly, and the employee signs the contract saying they are okay with not being able to do thing on the side without approval.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by spectre256 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:26PM (#18877141)
It might not be enforceable but it would take a very brave or wealthy individual to choose to do something that might make Amazon decide to sick their lawyers on you.

Months in court to prove innocence is still a heavy cost to pay.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by h1d on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:22PM (#18878334)
If the mass can side with you, you can fight with donations to represent them all.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by sah2ed on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:43AM (#18872900)
Not that I agree with Amazon's policy for no open source contributions, but imagine that an employee decides to spend the 6-8hrs out of the remaining 24hrs meant for sleep on something other than sleep, what do you think will happen? That employee's productivity during those critical 8hrs of the day that is being paid for by the employer would drop like a rock, because whether we like it or not, we need time to recharge our batteries.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by pferde on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:59AM (#18872970)
That's... wow. Are you saying that the employers could (or even should) demand that employees do nothing else during their free time except rest, so that they are well rested for their on-the-clock time? No late night TV for you, no early morning pool swimming session, and don't even think about taking up that physically demanding hobby, because we need you 100% focused on the job!
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by sah2ed on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:02AM (#18873500)
No. I specifically said remaining hours.

To recap:

   - 8hrs for work;
   - 8hrs for leisure (daily commute, family time, hobbies etc);
   - 8hrs for sleep.

Once you take out work time & leisure time all you have left is sleep time. Sleep is unique because it is an exclusive human activity — it can’t be combined with other activities.

If someone decides to misallocate rest time, then s/he will become sleep deprived leading to low productivity. This is true regardless of whether you perform physically demanding work like farming or sit all day at a desk doing knowledge work.

A self-inflicted impairment like this is no different from abusing hard drugs or consuming too much alcohol (on or off the clock), but it is vastly different from low productivity resulting from falling ill, which is beyond any employee’s control.

Whether you like it or not, paid employment demands a certain monopoly of your time. The only way to opt out is to work for yourself.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by pferde on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:33AM (#18874056)
In my view, contribution to open source falls under hobbies, so the time comes from the leisure time.

I agree that if someone takes that from sleep time instead, they're harming themselves, but this still is nothing the employer should (be allowed to) care about.

If the employee underperforms at work, the employee gets a warning, and it is up to the employee to review his or her time management, being a responsible adult that they are.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by apacheCamel on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:46AM (#18874154)
I think what the post above yours is trying to say is that the company I work for has no say what I do with my 8 hours of sleep time. If I want to only sleep for 4 hours but I come to work and get my job done, who cares? It is my time anyway and they aren't paying me to sleep so why should they have a say? If my work is suffering, sure, they have a right to fire me but if I get my work done in the 8 hours, they have no say over the other 16.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by swift532 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:55AM (#18872950)
If someone is badly underperforming, then they can fire them. It's simply ridiculous for a company to own a second of your time outside work hours, excepting things like people on call, of course, but I count that under work hours.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by cmsj on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:52AM (#18872932)
By that argument they should also prohibit people from playing competitive chess outside of work, because it's mentally challenging.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by paulie_a on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:56AM (#18872707)
Typically that sort of thing can't just be informed to you. There needs to be an agreement made, ie you get paid for the new circumstances. A former employer realized that continued employment doesn't count. Even in an at will state, both parties need to get something out of the change.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by clairity on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:06PM (#18871440)
that kind of restriction is generally not enforceable in states like california unless you explicitly get some kind of consideration (e.g., compensation) for it.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by saagarjha on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:00AM (#18872289)
> unless you explicitly get some kind of consideration (e.g., compensation) for it

Is this in addition to the regular salary you are paid, or…

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by clairity on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:09PM (#18875555)
since it’s above and beyond customary work duties, you’d expect extra compensation of some kind to have you refrain from projects unrelated to the job. there are some exceptions of course. security-related government workers could be subject to extra restrictions without extra compensation, for example.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by cryptonector on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:21AM (#18871728)
If the approvals issue in all cases where the project clearly is unrelated to the employer's business, then what's the problem? To some degree review of external work is just the sort of thing a corporate legal department is going to push for, and it's not exactly unreasonable provided that approvals issue except where there is clearly a conflict.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by Pfhreak on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:27AM (#18871748)
I agree with you -- if there's a process and it's easy enough to get an approval, I (personally) have no problems.

However, Amazon's game development policy lays out 10ish different requirements you must meet, including not working with others outside of your org, must give up ownership of IP at Amazon's request, must use Amazon services or provide feedback why you couldn't. There's no process by which any of those items can be waived.

This basically means you can't do game jams with friends unless they work in your org. And if your game jam is successful, you run the risk of Amazon just taking ownership.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by cryptonector on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:32AM (#18871759)
Yeah, that's not OK. That's not like any policy I've seen anywhere.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by tjonker on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:10PM (#18878778)
This is not an accurate representation of Amazon's current policies.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:11AM (#18873031)
The problem is that you need permission. Whether the approval is usually given is irrelevant, what matters is whether they have the option to refuse.

Think about it like this: What would be the problem with the employment contract saying that salary can be decided by the company at will if they usually paid a certain acceptable sum every month?

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by cryptonector on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:07AM (#18873875)
I tried to distinguish "shall issue" from "may issue". A "you must let us know [so we can possibly refuse]" policy and a "you must ask permission [that will issue if there is no conflict]" policy are indistinguishable. A "you must ask permission and we reserve the right to say no no matter what" policy is terrible, and I'd not work under such a policy.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Thursday January 10, 2019 @11:16AM (#18874919)
But the point is that it's not a question of probabilities, but of whether they are contractually obligated to issue approval unless specific conditions are met, so an implicit "[that will issue if there is no conflict]" is not acceptable IMO. There have to be specific rules for when they may refuse approval, so you can ask an independent judge to make a decision if you think the employer is partial in its decision.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by cryptonector on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:03PM (#18876226)
"shall issue" and "may issue" are terms of art.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by MRD85 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:55AM (#18872264)
Do you have negotiated work contracts in your country? If your old contract didn't limit work then it would mean being acquired wouldn't affect it.
Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by chooseaname on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:49AM (#18874177)
> ... I had to get prior permission to do ANY open source contributions even on my own hardware on my own time

Why do we put up with this!? The foundations of our industry go back to how much early developers share with one another!

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by hugs on Thursday January 10, 2019 @09:57AM (#18874240)
> Why do we put up with this!?

The tyranny of a stable paycheck.

Re:AWS gives open source the middle finger? by BeetleB on Thursday January 10, 2019 @10:17AM (#18874395)
>The tyranny of a stable paycheck.

In this case, it is the "tyranny" of a large paycheck and equity from the wealthiest public company in the world.