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Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by jamesblonde on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @01:55AM (#18853828)
What is it about European Enterprise Data software companies that they never make it past this stage without either being bought up or moving to the States?

MySQL, JBoss, Elastic. The list is much longer.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by devdimi on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:24AM (#18854386)
There are lot of reasons:

-Europe is fragmented market. It is not given that German software will be gladly accepted and used in France, Italy or UK and vice versa. There are barriers there that does not exist in the US.

-The capital market and the stock market are not as developed as in USA in terms of market participants and available funds. Going public is unlikely event. If it happens, it would not get a lot of publicity and it would not raise as much money. Some European companies prefer to go public in the US.

-There is public mistrust about big software companies. Many people are afraid that big software companies will steal and abuse their personal data.

-There is also mistrust about venture capital and generally big finance institutions that they somehow "control" the economy, exploit small family businesses, and just make money on mistreating normal people.

I know that some of this sounds ridiculous, but it is true for astonishing number of people in Germany, France, Austria, and Italy. UK is a little better, but they mistrust everything about the rest of Europe.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by thecleaner on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:45AM (#18854458)
> Many people are afraid that big software companies will steal and abuse their personal data

Cant say they are wrong. But its also a business concern for enterprise companies everywhere - US or EU so you cant really say this is an issue here. More of a requirement.

>exploit small family businesses, and just make money on mistreating normal people.

Most of the people who think so are being very stupid.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by jondubois on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @11:09AM (#18856553)
> Most of the people who think so are being very stupid.

VCs make a profit by selling startups to big corporations or big investors via IPO. Most startups have negative cash flow and make negative profits by the time they are acquired by a corporation or investors. This means that VCs make a profit by creating negative value. Most VC-funded startups with a successful exit never become profitable. Those few startups that do manage to IPO and eventually become profitable are usually those who happen to have a monopoly over some industry; in other words, they are only profitable because consumers have no other alternatives to choose from; so they get to set the price. Believing that VCs create negative value is not stupid. Not seeing that it might be the case is what's stupid.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by thecleaner on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:58AM (#18872283)
I see what you mean. But the actual point was about exploiting family businesses and mistreating people. I am not sure what it has to do with your negative value argument.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by devdimi on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:52AM (#18854482)
Sure. I did not want to discuss if it is right or wrong. I just wanted to state some widespread beliefs that are hostile for tech startups.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by pplonski86 on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:27AM (#18854399)
Could you give example of Europe based tech companies that went public in US?
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by lolftw on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:40AM (#18854444)
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by devdimi on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:37AM (#18854438)
For instance Sequans Communications is a french company listed on NYSE as SQNS. It is not listed in France or anywhere else in Europe.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by 431ui5sd on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @08:20AM (#18855315)
Spotify (based in Stockholm)
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by athrun on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @06:08AM (#18854731)
Criteo is another one.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by dkvochkin on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:43AM (#18854453)
Another, more recent example, is Farfetch (FTCH). European startup that went public on NYSE
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by shemtovo on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @12:42PM (#18857535)
Elastic
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by jlangenauer on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:02AM (#18854057)
One reason is because I think there isn't such an obsession with becoming a billionaire here. If you're a founder, and someone offers you a deal which will personally see you net €10-20m after tax, why wouldn't you take it?
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by jamesblonde on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:13AM (#18854100)
I agree. However, I know the Data Artisans founders personally. There like like 6 or 7 of them, and Prof Volker Merkl (main person behind the original project, Stratosphere). Then, they did two funding rounds. Nobody is coming out with near 10m euro. Half that, before tax, probably after a few years of golden handcuffs. So, my guess is 3m euro after 10+ years. Not bad, but you couldn't buy a good house in the valley or SF for that.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by azag0 on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:40AM (#18854198)
For a perspective, 3m euro is about two lifetimes of an average salary in Berlin (north of 2k monthly after taxes)
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by eastendguy on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:52AM (#18854231)
Nobody in IT earns only 2K a month in Berlin...
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by shinryuu on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:57AM (#18854253)
It's after tax. I earn 2.5k after tax.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:36AM (#18854432)
That seems pretty low to me. Can you buy a house in Berlin with that income? It's almost what a dev makes in Romania and there you can buy a decent house with that income.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by expertentipp on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @06:13AM (#18854755)
Buy?! You'll have hard time renting, and money is only part of the issue.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by superpermutat0r on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @11:52AM (#18857010)
That does seem pretty low. I make 500 Euros less and I'm a junior Dev in Croatia, wouldn't move to Germany for that kind of money.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ido on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @11:23AM (#18856703)
It is normal in Germany & even more so in the big cities like Berlin for people to rent their whole lives - there are a lot of tenants protections & rent control here that make that less risky.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @02:37PM (#18858815)
So many people renting their whole lives sounds to me like in Germany most properties are owned by a privileged few and the remaining being forced to be their tennants. Does nobody see anything wrong with that? Rent control laws don't make this OK in my book.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by pantalaimon on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:28PM (#18859335)
Well there are indeed many people who call for expropriation now.

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/civey-umfrage-fuer-den-ta...

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ido on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:40AM (#18863542)
If you're asking for my opinion residential real estate should be publicly owned, like hospitals, transport infrastructure, (public) schools/universities, etc.

Or at the very least the land under it should never be sold, only leased from the state.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by expertentipp on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:38AM (#18863004)
Yes, consolidations on the market are a thing with an additional side effect - as owning a property is professonalized it’s even more difficult and expensive for an individual to own.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by Aeolun on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @06:21AM (#18854784)
In the Netherlands that would be fairly normal too. Comes out to around €4000 per month pre-tax, or €56000 (12m + 2m bonus) per year.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ahartmetz on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @12:16PM (#18857251)
2k net is doable but rare and becoming rarer. I guess the average is around 3k net.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by pantalaimon on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @08:53AM (#18855478)
Well I do…
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @02:32PM (#18858763)
By any chance, do you also happen to be Romanian? :)
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by expertentipp on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:40AM (#18863015)
Having talked with some Romanians, software professionals’ salaries in Romania are not far behind average German ones. They wouldn't be the first I would accuse of wage dumping (that would be Ukrainians, Russians, Bangladeshis, and Indians). It’s that everything else in Romania is shit.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:50AM (#18864036)
Except the nationalities you listed are not EU while Romanians are. Thre's plenty of things wrong with Romania starting with the corruption, but I wouldn't say everything is shit. Othwewise the local tech hubs wouldn't be full of westerners working here. I also miss the above average wages and the above average women. :) Seeing the wages in Germany vs the property prices makes me feel poor.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by pantalaimon on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:22PM (#18859281)
No, German in Berlin.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by jamesblonde on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @01:25PM (#18857971)
Edit: Kostas announced on Twitter that Data Artisans recently also had an undisclosed Series B. So, the founders probably received a bit less that I wrote above. If the founders lost control of the board in the Series B, they may have received a good bit less than I wrote previously.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by locklock on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:46AM (#18854217)
You can certainly buy a nice house in Berlin for it though!
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ajaxaddicted on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:04AM (#18854283)
Why would someone do that though. You can buy a much nicer house in Spain
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by jamisteven on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:17AM (#18854340)
Living in Zurich, and think this very thing daily.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ionised on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:20AM (#18854360)
I'd rather live in Germany than Spain.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ajaxaddicted on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @05:05AM (#18854525)
Once you are financially secure, living in Germany makes no sense. Shitty weather, the insane apartment situation in any major city, shitty services(any company with Deutsche in front - Deutsche Bahn, Deutsche Bank, Deutsche Telekom, Deutsche Wohnen), the beurocratic burden in your day to day live - everything takes forever to get done here. Spain is not perfect, but oh my god is Germany overrated
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ionised on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @05:16AM (#18854567)
> Once you are financially secure, living in Germany makes no sense.

How so?

> Shitty weather

To me, constant heat and sunshine is shitty weather. I prefer a temperate/boreal climate. I find it far more pleasant.

> the insane apartment situation in any major city

So just like every other major city currently.

> shitty services

They are going to have to be extraordinarily shitty to be worse than what I have already in the UK.

I've spent enough time in Spain to know I'd never want to live there, and enough in Germany to know that it is very attractive to me.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ajaxaddicted on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @05:44AM (#18854656)
> Once you are financially secure, living in Germany makes no sense. > How so?

A personal preference. The quality of life is not high, considering the bureaucratic hurdles you have to overcome on a daily basis - dealing with any Amt/Behörde(agency), Schools, Kindergarten, etc. And on top of that - you get penalized for working hard. There is this Goldschnitt situation(golden edge, breaking point), where the taxes get way too high and makes no sense to work above that level.

> They are going to have to be extraordinarily shitty to be worse than what I have already in the UK.

I spent a couple of years in the UK and the services in Germany are way worse. Banks are better in the UK, transportation is better in the UK, at least in major cities(options where you don't have to rely on your car), doing business is easier and cheaper in the UK. Maybe if we compare the NHS vs the german health system, Germany has a slight advantage, at least when it comes to waiting times.

> the insane apartment situation in any major city

Here again - bureaucracy and the car lobby, which gets in the way of any sort of public transport development/investment. So there is space, but people have to bundle around the well connected spots. For example: East Berlin is vast and empty, no transport connections developed for 30 years - only tram and the occasional buses.

> Shitty weather > To me, constant heat and sunshine is shitty weather. I prefer a temperate/boreal climate. I find it far more pleasant.

It is 50/50 - I would not want to be in Spain in June, July, August and I don't want to be in Germany in January, February, March

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by hgq on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @06:27AM (#18854810)
What do you dislike so much about Spain?
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ionised on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @09:00AM (#18855507)
It's not so much an active dislike as it is just not my cup of tea.

I've visited Spain a few times and it's nice in short bursts, but to live there I would have to deal with the weather (not everyone likes hot and sunny, I'd honestly prefer Norway's weather to Spain), the piss-poor developer salaries, the struggling economy, the food that I really am not a fan of, the poor quality of healthcare, the remnants of pro-Franco fascism in their political landscape etc.

It's just not for me. I think I'm more suited to Germanic/Nordic countries for culture.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by bogomipz on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @10:37AM (#18856229)
>"the beurocratic burden in your day to day live"

Could you elaborate on this? I'm genuinely curious what are some of those day to day bureaucratic burdens?

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by majidazimi on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @01:48PM (#18858240)
Here is an example:

I'm not citizen but working as a dev. I have an old passport which doesn't have bio-metric security features. However, I have a valid residence permit card (it already has bio-metric features). Revolut app which is UK based bank accepts my residence permit in identification process without checking my passport. Just scan it via the app itself and there you go. There is literally no bank in Germany (including N26) that accepts my residence permit card. I constantly have to fight with every company providing any online financial service, because their online video identification process (known as Post-Ident which is run by Deutsche Post) only scans bio-metric passports.

How come? If this thing (residence permit) is a valid ID document, then why is everyone asking for passport? My identity has already been approved by immigration office.

If residence permit is not a valid ID document, then why issue it at first place?

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by bogomipz on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @10:00PM (#18861918)
Ouch that is certainly frustrating and more than a little bit silly. Thanks for sharing.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by expertentipp on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @06:17AM (#18854765)
> Deutsche Wohnen

lol, as a person who is forced to rent in Berlin, what should one be beware of while dealing with them?

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by eunos on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:15PM (#18870684)
Really sad that you cofounded one of the most utilized stream processing engine and you can just buy a house :/
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by usrusr on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:44AM (#18854212)
Slightly related is how it is mathematically impossible for VC to develop that "99 duds, one win" mindset that dominates SV when wins are not expected to become big enough to compensate that many losses. High failure rate VC cannot exist without robber-baron style exploitation of the occasional victory. Only bootstrappers are free to be modest.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by rapsey on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @02:30AM (#18853938)
The funding options in Europe are abysmal compared to US or even UK. EU response to this is various EU funding programs that are mostly throwing money away for little to no benefit. At least in the tech sector.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by oblio on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:20AM (#18854358)
> EU response to this is various EU funding programs that are mostly throwing money away for little to no benefit.

You're framing this as if it's the EU's job. It isn't.

The only way the EU could compete if it would become a federal state, similar to the US. Right now the EU, despite being a single market in many respects is far from being a true digital single market.

Individual states are actively fighting against this because they would have give up bits of their sovereignty (controlling tax levels, such as VAT, commercial legislation, etc.).

You can't both have your cake (a huge single market able to funnel huge amounts of money into your desired investments) and eat it (keep total control of your country's finances).

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by badestrand on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @12:57PM (#18857686)
> Right now the EU, despite being a single market in many respects is far from being a true digital single market

I think this is less about regulations and more about language. Most people in the EU simply don't speak english so you would have to have your marketing and sales in 20 languages which is simply not doable. A french startup just can't cold call a romanian company because they can not communicate. Yes, it gets better with each new generation but it will be decades before this is "solved".

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by thecleaner on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:26AM (#18854395)
How do these things get realized in the EU system ? I mean hypothetically if Germany, France, Netherlands, the Nordic countries pass legislations for greater integration wouldnt others follow suite ? Should it also not pass easily since most big businesses would probably get behind it ?
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by oblio on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:51AM (#18854480)
You're forgetting that Europeans are overall fiercely nationalistic by modern standards (not-WW1 nationalistic, but still).

Every EU country pushes back when there are attempts for more integration. More than that, there's a rising anti-EU current in most EU countries, due to various population movement issues.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by rapsey on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:28AM (#18854405)
> You're framing this as if it's the EU's job. It isn't.

Then what is EU Horizon 2020 for?

https://ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/what-horizon-202...

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by oblio on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:50AM (#18854475)
An attempt.

But the EU budget is much, much smaller than the US federal budget:

EU: $150 billion for 2014

US: $3000 billion for 2014

And the barriers between national markets in the EU are much steeper than the ones between state markets in the US.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by kavalg on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @06:29AM (#18854822)
150 billion i still a good amount of money. The problem with EU funding is in the objectives:

- Vaguely defined, so they open a lot of room for lobbying and corruption

- It is hard to align them to a startup agenda and the administrative overhead is often prohibitive

I wish it was more like a venture fund, but one that doesn't take equity.

Just my two cents.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by oblio on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @08:34AM (#18855374)
Those goals are vaguely defined because they're a compromise. The EU generally works by consensus, they're trying to herd 28 (soon to be 27) cats.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by rapsey on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @07:13AM (#18854973)
And it is a legal liability as you can quickly get investigated for misspending the funds.
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by jamesblonde on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @06:01AM (#18854710)
I wrote a quick blog post outlining my thoughts on the problems with building European Data companies here:

https://www.logicalclocks.com/what-is-it-with-european-data-...

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by jamesblonde on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @07:17AM (#18854983)
We can continue the conversation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18854862
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by tormeh on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:07AM (#18854295)
EU capital markets are underdeveloped compared to those in the US. European banks are too small, and mostly national. More importantly, the marketplaces are too small and too national. European stock exchanges are a joke compared to NASDAQ and NYSE.

There's also the small detail of pension funds generally being forbidden from investing in stocks. That's the money that's fuelling SV, if my impression is correct. This policy comes from a general risk-aversion that's also evident in all other areas.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by vesinisa on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:22AM (#18854375)
> There's also the small detail of pension funds generally being forbidden from investing in stocks.

As someone who has worked for a Finnish start-up financed by a pension fund, you are mistaken on this one.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by ionised on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:19AM (#18854350)
None of this seems correct.

Europe has more than a few multi-national, global banks.

Also, my own pension is invested in the stock market. That's the norm for employer-provided pensions.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by athrun on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @06:21AM (#18854786)
This article from The Economist touches on this topic.

“Banks cannot use deposits in one country to lend in another, because national regulators do not want to be on the hook for loans to improvident foreigners. An eu-wide deposit-guarantee scheme would allay that fear, but has yet to be agreed.”

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/01/05/the-euro-enter...

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by raverbashing on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:16AM (#18854337)
> European banks are too small, and mostly national.

You mean like Deutsche Bank? BNP Paribas? Santander?

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by tormeh on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @12:40PM (#18857518)
Yes, like those. They are big on a European scale, but not internationally.

I think Deutsche used to be pretty big, but it's been going downhill for a couple of years now.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by raverbashing on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @03:15PM (#18859217)
Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by fastbeef on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:16AM (#18854339)
"There's also the small detail of pension funds generally being forbidden from investing in stocks."

Could you provide more info? All my Swedish pensions savings, both private and goverment, are basically stocks-only funds.

Re:Alibaba acquires Berlin-based data Artisans for $103M by Aethelwulf on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @04:14AM (#18854327)
> There's also the small detail of pension funds generally being forbidden from investing in stocks.

Do you have a source for that? I've not heard that before.