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Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by crazygringo on Friday November 23, 2018 @02:18PM (#18518353)
I think there's a real reason here which the article doesn't mention: the more confused you are about what you're purchasing, the more likely you are to pay more and get less.

If the site can guide you to last year's model without you realizing, then they profit. If it isn't easy to discover there's a similar laptop for the same price but a faster processor, then they profit.

A lot of consumers will give up trying to understand, and simply pick a more (overly) expensive one because it'll "have to" be good if it's that expensive.

This effectively allows manufacturers to achieve price discrimination: those who don't have time to research for hours will pay more, those who really don't have money will take the time and figure out the best deal in the end. (It's the same way grocery store coupons allow those who really need to save costs pay less, as long as they'll go to the effort of clipping.)

So why doesn't Apple do this?

Because Apple is by-definition high end. They're not going after bargain hunters, so they can afford a simple, cleaner site where everything is clear and comparable. They don't need to do price discrimination as much. (Obviously they still do though, it's just by charging way more for upgrades, like maximum-sized-storage iPhones and MacBooks.)

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by sonnyblarney on Friday November 23, 2018 @07:49PM (#18519763)
"the more confused you are about what you're purchasing, the more likely you are to pay more and get less."

"Don't ascribe to malfeasance that which can be otherwise explained by incompetence" - Napoleon.

Having worked in this area I would say it's simply a matter of zero product strategy, not some dark pattern. And I'm not sure I agree with the confusion bit though you could be right, I don't think so. Confusion is death to a sales funnel.

Here's a product, oh, let's make a variation, oh, another variation with this cool new thing our M&A team bought, oops, power regs mean in that other country we need this - so let's make another model. But Microsoft wants a specific hardware version for their OS, so 10 more version. Hey have you seen this new stylus (!?) Marketing says 10% of Millennial want them, let's tweak the screen and make 5 more models with that.

Basically, there's no product strategy.

The 'web site' is basically just taking orders from Product, and simply 'doing their job' by organizing it in some way ... which may include some douchy designers view on how it ought to be displayed.

Then Marketing Ops posts some vanity metrics and voila.

Someone with a lot of power has to go in there and change that, and otherwise, it won't happen.

If the culture is not there from the start, or from the top, it won't happen.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by crazygringo on Friday November 23, 2018 @08:30PM (#18519905)
So I actually agree with you 100%... but in the sense that's it's working inadvertently.

I'm very familiar with internal politics/chaos resulting in an explosion of models... ;)

But the thing is: if this were hugely detrimental to the bottom line, it would get fixed. But it's not. To the contrary, it actually improves the bottom line, even if it wasn't designed to do so. So other things get fixed, but not this.

And if I'm shopping for a new <insert superfluous consumer item here> then sure, confusion is death to a sales funnel because I can just not buy. But if I need a new laptop and can't afford Apple, then I've got 3-5 brands to choose from and their websites/models are equally confusing...

...and so I probably wind up spending more money that I needed and the companies come out winners.

BUT... if another company comes along and goes after the value market with a simple-to-understand lineup, where the business model is massive, massive volume of a tiny number of models? And gains consumer trust? Kind of like Casper did with mattresses, another impossible-to-understand market? Or Warby Parker with glasses, where incumbents were waaay overpriced? Well then there's a ton of money to be made, my friend. Indeed, I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened yet.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by sonnyblarney on Friday November 23, 2018 @09:24PM (#18520087)
"if this were hugely detrimental to the bottom line, it would get fixed. "

The company I worked at didn't 'fix it' - they went out of business.

It would take an entire strategic overhaul to fix it - which is why these things keep happening.

I would take product line focus, brand communications, focused online retailing etc. etc.. That's hard to do most companies are incapable.

You'd be surprised at how inefficient so many operations are.

Who's going to put their hand up and say that it's broken? Or that they could fix it? Who's going to believe them? Does the company have the leadership and ability to even try an experiment? How would that work?

All of that takes thoughtful leadership across a few groups, which is sadly rare.

I think Amazon is a great example - there's so much clunkiness in their UI that I feel pretty confident some optimizations could be made. But it doesn't seem to compute in the way they roll their ops.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by squarefoot on Sunday November 25, 2018 @05:38AM (#18526323)
"It would take an entire strategic overhaul to fix it - which is why these things keep happening."

They could just ask for advice to whoever makes websites for semiconductor manufacturers and/or sellers: there's surely a lot of corporate blurbs in there but in a few clicks you also get to an easy to navigate matrix of products with filters to find exactly the needed part. It would become trivial for example to find a product with no less than x GB of RAM,SSD, that exact processor, x cells battery, xy sized screen, available in stock now etc. then sort the list by pricing.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by j-c-hewitt on Friday November 23, 2018 @08:36PM (#18519922)
The other not-that-nefarious explanation is that laptop brands with the exception of Apple tend to be not that great at merchandising their products. That's what retailers do really well. If selling direct to consumer is only a small fraction of overall sales, having a great consumer experience is strictly not a priority. If a lot of your sales come from corporate or academic IT departments, having a great catalog website for consumers is not a priority.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by sonnyblarney on Friday November 23, 2018 @09:25PM (#18520090)
That's a great point. Banking UI's tend to be disastrous partly because banks think IT is for 'back office' - not part of the product. So it always mundane. Does the minimum.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by j-c-hewitt on Saturday November 24, 2018 @01:56PM (#18523433)
It shouldn't be a shock that most of the people who buy something like Lenovo or current-day Dell are not individual consumers buying a single laptop. So the experience for individual consumers is not that great. Their best customers are IT departments ordering 200+ units at a time.

Go on Amazon, Newegg, B&H, eBay, or other higher quality computer retailers as an individual shopper and you will probably have a better experience buying any of the brands mentioned in the parent article. It might even be easier to buy direct from the manufacturer on eBay than it would be to use their own website and it's probably easier to get a Paypal refund than a refund through the manufacturer's own website.

One reason why Apple has had such incredible success in capturing market share is because they focused on creating a better direct to consumer experience. That is also why Dell had some great success when Apple stumbled in the late 1990s. They had an awesome eCommerce experience and great technical support.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by sonnyblarney on Saturday November 24, 2018 @04:07PM (#18523987)
Dell sells enough laptops directly to consumer that it should be a good experience.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by clintonb on Friday November 23, 2018 @02:42PM (#18518478)
Apple still offers older models, but make them slightly difficult to find:

* https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/clearanc...

* https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished

As a consumer, I greatly appreciate knowing that I'm getting a deal on last year's model rather than being tricked into said deal.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by wlesieutre on Friday November 23, 2018 @10:51PM (#18520362)
You can hit MacBook Air -> Buy and the old non-retina model is on the same page as the new ones. You at least have to scroll down though, and comparing the features list makes it pretty clear that this is a cheaper old version.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by jseliger on Friday November 23, 2018 @02:19PM (#18518360)
I think there's a real reason here which the article doesn't mention: the more confused you are about what you're purchasing, the more likely you are to pay more and get less.

That could be true, but I also wonder how many people look at the weird bazaar that is the average website and then throw up their hands and buy Apple instead. Less hassle, etc.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by clintonb on Friday November 23, 2018 @02:45PM (#18518501)
If you have Apple money, you buy Apple (either for the performance/value or as a status symbol). It doesn't make sense to me that someone confused by a manufacturer's site would jump to Apple in disgust.

Anecdotally, most of my family doesn't have Apple money, so they send me Amazon and Best Buy links asking if a low-end Windows machine is worth the $250.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by Veen on Friday November 23, 2018 @03:06PM (#18518606)
A few years ago I visited a large electronics retailer to buy a Windows laptop to put Linux on. I’d been a Linux user for years. But the service was so dire at the store I became irritated. No one knew what they were talking about. I waited twenty minutes to talk to a member of staff, who went to find another member of staff, and left me waiting an additional twenty minutes. I thought fuck this, left, and walked by an Apple store on the same street. I was curious and popped in to have a look. The experience was such a contrast that I bought a MacBook Air on the spot. Five years later and I’ve bought another MacBook, two iPhones, two iPads, and god knows how much software.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by paultopia on Friday November 23, 2018 @03:40PM (#18518788)
Seriously, this, but from the opposite direction. I've been an Apple user since forever, and I keep thinking about switching to Linux. But then I try to find some hardware, and it's either Thinkpad (the same price as Apple, plus I have to install an operating system?), Dell XPS (everyone here seems to hate it), or hunt through an endless forest of confusing bits of hardware with machines named things like EnterpriseCo D8305xr and BigCorporate fx9301.818 and through those terrible websites, and, fuckit, Tim Cook gets some more of my money.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by perishabledave on Friday November 23, 2018 @03:50PM (#18518843)
Can’t speak from actually purchasing from them, but System76 laptops seems like a great option for getting a Linux computer. The website is in stark contrast to the maze that the Dell website is.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by diegoperini on Friday November 23, 2018 @04:06PM (#18518914)
Today I spent like 30 minutes fantasizing about what to buy and played with all kind of customization settings in their site.

Hurray for my new procrastination tool!

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by yread on Saturday November 24, 2018 @05:02AM (#18521323)
on the other hand looking to buy an ipad I have a choice between 6 "iPad" models, 4 "iPad mini", 2 "iPad Air" models and 4 "iPad Pro" models. Confusing and difficult to research anything.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by pdimitar on Friday November 23, 2018 @03:19PM (#18518671)
Yes. I feel many people really look at the price in a very black-and-white sort of way. Truth is, if people really want the device in question, they do find a way -- and they do buy it.

I observed many times how even below-middle-class people around here in Eastern Europe could muster the money for a MacBook or a high-end iPhone with help from relatives or local short-term money lenders. (Sometimes from their boss as well -- many employers are happy to deduct 10-20% of your salary for 4-8 months until you repay the device.)

Also what you said about service is something that much of the tech crowd here in HN seems to severely underestimate. Even I as a programmer and a few other hardware guys I know appreciate a semi-informed employee who comes to us and answers intelligently any questions we ask them. Those that don't try and swindle us usually get our money.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by noir_lord on Saturday November 24, 2018 @12:04PM (#18522889)
> If you have Apple money, you buy Apple.

I have Apple money, I bought a Thinkpad.

I do own two apple devices (ipad mini 2 and this years iPad with a pencil), excellent devices but I like Linux too much for day to day work.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by wolfgke on Friday November 23, 2018 @03:35PM (#18518763)
> If you have Apple money, you buy Apple (either for the performance/value or as a status symbol).

Rather: If you have Apple money, you buy a ThinkPad (either for the performance/value or as a status symbol). :-)

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by tedunangst on Friday November 23, 2018 @08:59PM (#18519999)
Lenovo suffers from perpetual sale syndrome. I know they have varying sales, from 20% to 40% off or free upgrades, but I'm never certain the current offer is the best available, so I postpone purchasing to see if next week is better and usually forget to actually follow up. I'd probably have spent twice as much if they offered Apple like experience, where the price is the price.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by iwiririwo on Friday November 23, 2018 @07:11PM (#18519625)
Good luck ordering anything from Lenovo. For me, checkout failed after successful Visa verification. Support answers they don't know why and cannot help. Unacceptable for me if I do 1800€ purchases. Warranty terms are completely obfuscated.

Try to find an answer if your TP has world-wide support. You can't. It needs IWS International Warranty Service. TPs have that by default, people say, but during checkout it will tell you IWS is not applicable (because included? the IWS model number list will tell you, but do you have the correct model number during checkout?)

/rant

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by twblalock on Friday November 23, 2018 @08:36PM (#18519920)
Lenovo has one of the worst laptop websites. They have 10 "series" currently on the site: the X, T, P, Yoga, A, E, L, 13, 11E, and V.

Given the number of configurable options across the product line for processors, memory, hard drives, screens, etc., there must be thousands of possible combinations.

I assume many laptops across all of the series are available with 13-inch screens, so the name of the "13 series" is particularly confusing.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by snaky on Friday November 23, 2018 @10:43PM (#18520343)
Thinkpad buyers use the other Lenovo site - http://psref.lenovo.com/
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by mcny on Saturday November 24, 2018 @04:22AM (#18521225)
Thank you for this link. So if I wanted to ask someone to get something specific for me if link them to

http://psref.lenovo.com/Detail/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_A485?M=20MU...

And they'd go somewhere and get quotes? What's the process?

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by CptMauli on Saturday November 24, 2018 @11:09AM (#18522633)
Never seen this!

Is there something similar for other brands?

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by iwiririwo on Friday November 23, 2018 @10:06PM (#18520234)
While I think most of the "series" itself make sense, the configurations are often insane.

The X280 still has a 1366x768 display option.

For T480s, you need to figure out if you have 8GB RAM or 4GB soldered + 4GB. Even more stupid, the latter option comes more expensive.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by snaky on Friday November 23, 2018 @10:46PM (#18520351)
There are 8GB soldered, 8GB soldered + 8GB DIMM, and other options http://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480s
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by iwiririwo on Saturday November 24, 2018 @08:34PM (#18524912)
so that 8GB option I considered to buy doesn't even have upgradeable RAM? Thank you for that page, it's incredibly helpful, also since I'm in a region without English website.

The configuration page lists the options like that:

8GB (4GB soldered + 4GB)

8GB

For me that implies the 8GB are configurable. What the fuck.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by sitkack on Saturday November 24, 2018 @09:17AM (#18522095)
I came here to complain about Lenovo's website.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by kylecordes on Friday November 23, 2018 @02:43PM (#18518487)
Yes, intentional confusion is a dangerous game in a competitive environment. Though I suppose these folks must have carefully gathered metrics to compare the profits they gain from the confusion (if there really are any) versus what they lose when people leave without buying.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by nerdponx on Friday November 23, 2018 @03:22PM (#18518693)
That or they just pick one that looks good enough without shopping around.
Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by snegu on Friday November 23, 2018 @03:56PM (#18518868)
I highly doubt this is the strategy. There is somebody in charge of experience design in these organizations who is doing their very best to make the site easy to use.

However, they are hampered by a confusing product selection (as mentioned in the article), marketing people who want to make sure their preferred items are prominently placed, tight timelines that don't allow for user testing, or legacy tech that restricts design options.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by kristianc on Saturday November 24, 2018 @05:15AM (#18521352)
> So why doesn't Apple do this?

I'd say Apple's product lineup is no less convoluted.

Sure, the Apple site looks nicer, but the product lineup today is still pretty convoluted and it isn't easy to determine which is the 'right' option for you [1].

It's difficult at first glance to work out why the £949 MacBook Air would come with a 1.8 dual core, and the 'New' 13-inch would come with a 1.6 as standard.

https://www.apple.com/uk/mac/compare/

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by rmason on Saturday November 24, 2018 @12:40AM (#18520658)
Actually Apple used to be like all the rest before Steve Jobs came back. First thing he did was discontinue a lot of products, even entire categories like the Newton.

I think everyone should go to three categories: 13 inch laptops in good, better and best. Have a comparison chart that clearly shows the differences. Do not make you hunt to see the differences.

Then if you're making special models for say WalMart or Best Buy affix a letter code and then don't make it available through normal navigation. If I search for it on their site by entering the model number I can find it. Might even say something like 'as seen in Best Buy'.

Now this would result in fewer individual models and the absolute sales yield might drop temporarily. But by concentrating on customer satisfaction over time people would recommend them higher and their sales would increase.

One last thing - every single manufacturer in the checkout should have an option that says for $50 extra we won't load all the garbage you have to delete when you first start using the machine.

Re:Why Do Laptop Makers Have Such Terrible Websites by JustSomeNobody on Friday November 23, 2018 @03:59PM (#18518879)
I think it’s because they simply don’t want to pay for decent web dev talent.