News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by kalleboo on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @09:29PM (#18446936)
Where I'm from all the big grocery store chains have a variant of a Blue Apron style service. Seems like a feature not a product.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by TuringNYC on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @10:50PM (#18447318)
Funny thing is that whenever we learned about entrepreneurship, the three phrase was always SUSTAINABLE COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE. When I look at meal ingredient delivery services (or Groupon type businesses) almost none of them seemed to have actual sustainable competitive advantages. Some had advantages (early traction, etc) but nothing seemed sustainable. What is the thinking behind backing these businesses for VCs?
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by kanyethegreat on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @02:40AM (#18448244)
I don't think they're failing because of a lack of competitive advantage. People just don't really like the service. My group of friends used the term "Blue Apron Anxiety" to describe the feeling you get when a new BA box was sitting on your doorstep and you still haven't cooked any of the meals from the last batch. If they did, competitive advantage could've been established (e.g. economies of scale). Besides, companies sometimes succeed with products that don't really afford themselves to competitive advantages (e.g. Facebook or Spotify) until they're big enough to be deeply entrenched.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by randycupertino on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:15AM (#18448569)
Not to mention the anxiety you feel when you open up the packaging and there was just so much waste. Every time I opened up a meal delivery service meal I just felt like I was killing the environment. One time I had a large cardboard box specifically solely to package 10 almonds which were also wrapped in plastic and surrounded in bubble wrap.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by exergy on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:43AM (#18448665)
> Every time I opened up a meal delivery service meal I just felt like I was killing the environment.

As you well should.

How the fuck have we gotten to the point where chopping up vegetables is a task too onerous for the "I'm too busy in my hustle to bother with this shit" types? These ass backwards Silicon Valley 'products' should be taken behind an alley and burned to the ground.

Coral reefs are dying, mass exctinction is underway, our oceans are deadened and acidic, the little life that remains is full of microplastics and metals, glaciers are receding, entire fucking nations are sinking, fires are blazing larger than ever, antibiotics are no longer effective, heck, even drinkable water is getting scarcer, but fuck it, what we need is yet more asinine packaging to let the fat, overfed, heavily consuming American have yet another morsel of convenience because god forbid he have to get off his electric wheelchair to exercise his muscles and bike to a grocery store to buy some fucking Brocolli.

Fuck it all.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by dragonwriter on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @05:18AM (#18448822)
> How the fuck have we gotten to the point where chopping up vegetables is a task too onerous for the "I'm too busy in my hustle to bother with this shit" types?

Most meal kits (definitely Blue Apron) still have you chopping up vegetables; they are taking care of portioning and grouping (shopping and household inventory management), not prepping. So your complaint here is a bit of a non-sequitur.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by hoppelhase on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:20AM (#18449071)
Not related to Blue Apron: Where I live, you can buy peeled and chopped onions. Have to be put in the fridge and are packed in a plastic bag.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:52AM (#18449183)
Related to yours: the other day my wife told me she saw mandarin oranges peeled and individually wrapped in plastic. Mandarin oranges come with their own goddamn natural packaging. Why on Earth would you replace it with plastic?
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by zimpenfish on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @07:01AM (#18449215)
The obvious answer is "to accommodate people with arthritis or other manual dexterity limiting condition."
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @07:59AM (#18449492)
That's not obvious, as presumably you don't need much more effort to peel the skin off a mandarin orange than you'd need to peel off the plastic wrapper.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by zimpenfish on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:17AM (#18449599)
I had some "Easy Peeler" mandarins yesterday and, without any arthritis, they were much more effort than removing a plastic wrapper would have been.

I can't even begin to imagine how hard it would be if I had crippling arthritis in my hands.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by hoppelhase on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:48AM (#18449791)
I wonder how many people buying this do actually have athritis.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by zimpenfish on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:54AM (#18449822)
I don't know but there were a lot of disabled people praising Whole Foods for their peeled oranges back in 2016 when that whole backlash happened.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by detaro on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:57AM (#18449838)
Seems unlikely to me. And of course we don't have to presume, but can look at what people with those issues say, and they've been vocal about it whenever there's been a too-successful campaign against these things.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by emiliobumachar on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @07:52AM (#18449453)
Careful with unintended consequences. Convenient fruits may displace some greener inconvenient fruits, but may also displace some order-of-magnitude worse food items, such as cheeseburgers.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:01AM (#18449502)
Fruits are incredibly convenient by themselves without extra wrapping, the reason some people prefer cheeseburgers over fruits is not convenience, but because cheeseburgers taste better.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by skj on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:41AM (#18449742)
I live in New Jersey, and work in New York City. I leave my desk at 4, get home 5:15-5:30, and I like to cook dinner when I can.

I also have a 3-year-old, and keeping on a routine is something I feel that is important, so dinner on the table by 6 is my gold standard that I really really want to have happen as much as I can (allows bedtime routine at 7:30).

I often buy pre-chopped veggies, as long as I trust the chopper (there is a little farm market down the street from me and I see them chopping in the back room). The time it saves is great, easy 5 minutes closer to dinner time than I'd be otherwise, not counting the extra cleanup.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by namdnay on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:29AM (#18450026)
I don't think pre-chopped veggies is the problem, if you are getting them from a farm market presumably you can bring your own reusable containers? It makes complete sense to outsource the parts of the process that can be :)
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by Khol on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @05:57AM (#18448981)
I've said it here before, but these services are a lifesaver for some.

It might seem lazy to someone in full health, but sometimes those small things make all the difference.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:50AM (#18449174)
There are ways of catering to people with special needs without enabling everyone to collectively destroy the environment.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by Khol on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:29AM (#18450024)
But without there being a general audience for those things the cost is generally too high.

The example which springs to mind is the pre-peeled fruit a number of years ago which was similarly dismissed for having a harmful environmental impact, but if you've lost motor function in your hands it means you can eat a wider variety of foods.

Just because you don't see the need for something doesn't mean the need isn't there.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by baxtr on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:11AM (#18447885)
There’s so much money available that product market fit is not that important anymore. That’s at least what Steve Blank says (1). I don’t buy it, because I think it’s just a matter of time until you’ll find out that it doesn’t work and I don’t believe sheer money can create sustainable demand. But, it’s probably a great time to try stupid/crazy things or just give free stuff to consumers.

(1) https://steveblank.com/2018/09/05/is-the-lean-startup-dead/

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by TeMPOraL on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:25AM (#18447946)
> Funny thing is that whenever we learned about entrepreneurship, the three phrase was always SUSTAINABLE COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE.

Yup.

Shameful to admit, but I only this month finally got around to read "Lean Startup". I'm in a process of copying notes and writing down some thoughts, so I have this fresh in front of me: the book frequently talks about the goal of a startup being to "discover how to build a sustainable business around that vision" (emphasis mine).

But then, it shows to build unsustainable growth and keeps portraying companies that got sold as examples of success. Such is the double standard, and the only way I can reconcile those two views is by concluding that the goal is for you to make money via the discovery, and for someone else to use that discovery to build an actually sustainable business. But if it is so, then there's no surprise people skip the "sustainable business" part, as you can make even more money in an unsustainable way.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by deaddodo on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:20AM (#18447918)
Most early VCs get preferred stock and sales early. That's what happened with Blue Apron's IPO. The VCs benefitted greatly as it was their stock being sold to the public, first.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @05:05AM (#18448770)
Finance vaguely plausible but essentially bullshit idea - IPO - sell most of your stock just after the IPO peak - move on.

Bullshit idea crashes, trashing the livelihoods of the developers and later investors, but you and your money are long gone.

This can look suspiciously like the slower and more professional version of a pump 'n dump stock scheme - although historically it's sometimes written off as "irrational exuberance".

If by some miracle the bullshit idea actually flies, your remaining stock gives you a slice.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:00AM (#18448995)
I don’t think it’s anything like pump n dump. Anyone who bought into a food prep delivery service should have known better, all they had to do was try it for themselves. In any case, if you’re not wary of the risks in food service businesses, you probably need to do better research.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:51AM (#18450191)
>trashing the livelihoods of the developers and later investors

If you don't like it then go write software for bigco and shove your money in an index fund. Nobody is forcing developers to work for trendy startups or forcing investors to invest in freshly IPO'd startups.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by puranjay on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:35AM (#18447993)
It's honestly a good idea, but it's not a VC idea. It's a slow burn, 10% annual growth market - like a well-liked restaurant.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by avip on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:12AM (#18448350)
When thinking about "why VCs...", keep in mind they have to invest in something. If they don't invest, they lose (lose LPs, lose the fund). So simple answer is - they invested in this company because it was the least worse idea pitched to them over a certain period.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by bdcravens on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:30PM (#18447491)
Home Chef was acquired by Kroger.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by mooreds on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @12:24AM (#18447715)
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by meritt on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @02:11AM (#18448127)
How do you feel about Uber? They arguably don't have a sustainable competitive advantage either.

Yet they're somehow looking at a $120B IPO next year.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by Joeri on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @02:39AM (#18448235)
Uber is a transportation marketplace. If they’re successful in cornering the market all transportation is arranged through them but they employ zero drivers, and therefore would be wildly profitable. That’s why they’re all about market share at any cost.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by gaius on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:35AM (#18448437)
If Uber disappeared tomorrow, everyone would download another app and do the same journey in the same car with the same driver and the day after tomorrow would forget that Uber ever existed.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by jpatokal on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:45AM (#18448678)
But today they have the biggest network of drivers, and until they do disappear (or get disrupted by something like self-driving cars), network effect ensures that they'll remain the default option.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by jononor on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:59AM (#18448745)
Same can be said for Instagram or Twitter?
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by gaius on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:14AM (#18449050)
Yes and no. There’s no ongoing relationship between people on Uber, drivers don’t have passengers as “followers” or “friends” or vice versa. There’s no network effect really. And many users and many drivers have multiple apps anyway. The stickiness of Uber is incredibly low.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by kanyethegreat on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @02:45AM (#18448255)
Yeah, and Uber's founder's name is Travis Kalanick. How does spitting out random facts about Uber at all address his comment that Uber doesn't have a sustainable competitive advantage.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by Joeri on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @05:42AM (#18448909)
Their sustainable advantage is in dominance. If they offer the most transportation options people check them first, and drivers flock to where the people are.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by nradov on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:40AM (#18450108)
That's not how it actually works. Customers flip back and forth between Uber and competing services based on cost and availability. There's literally zero switching cost and no customer loyalty.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by jeffbax on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:38AM (#18449729)
It's called a network effect
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by andyidsinga on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:09PM (#18453375)
I don't think there is a network effect present in either Uber's or Blue Apron's business model.

<snip snip> A network effect (also called network externality or demand-side economies of scale) is the positive effect described in economics and business that an additional user of a good or service has on the value of that product to others. When a network effect is present, the value of a product or service increases according to the number of others using it.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by jeffbax on Monday November 19, 2018 @09:44AM (#18486708)
Blue Apron, not really. Uber certainly has a network effect. While many switched to Lyft given bad press, plenty more still got Uber originally (both sides of the market) and just use that. As they add more transit capabilities to their app (bikes, scooters etc) they will raise their moat as people just go there for all their transit needs.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by manigandham on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:25PM (#18447477)
There's not much thinking. It's hype and portfolio theory, and mostly hoping for a quick acquisition by a bigger company.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by jjeaff on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:44PM (#18447561)
There's plenty of thinking. The VCs know what they are doing. For those that have plenty of cash, the game is to invest in anything and everything that has a good public facing brand.

Pump it with cash, then dump it on the public market with an ipo to all the less sophisticated investors that aren't reading the financials.

Sure, every once in a while, you'll come across a Facebook type business that ends up being profitable, but in the meantime you can still make money on the losers when you cash out.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by phamilton on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @12:00AM (#18447631)
> less sophisticated investors that aren't reading the financials

Do these actually exist? My understanding is that retail investors aren't significant and I don't believe that institutional investors don't look at financials.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by nradov on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:48AM (#18450165)
In most IPOs, the vast majority of shares are allocated to institutional investors plus high net worth individuals who are favored customers of brokerages. Some of those buyers then flip their shares to retail investors just after the IPO for a quick low-risk profit.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by ajcodez on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @02:13AM (#18448139)
Definitely. My aunt liked the service and put $100k into APRN around $5. It adds up.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by flukus on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:35AM (#18447997)
> I don't believe that institutional investors don't look at financials.

Many don't, like indexed funds. They just try and keep their shares ratios inline with the market and rely on it always going up overall.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by phamilton on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @05:01AM (#18448752)
Do index funds drive the price at all though? I would expect them to be net neutral. If the stock goes down they sell, if it goes up, they buy.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by flukus on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:52PM (#18456220)
Yes they're mostly neutral. But when the stock goes down that's still real people losing real money from their pension funds to what are essentially con artists. The saving grace here is as nradov said, they won't buy into IPO's.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by nradov on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:45AM (#18450141)
Very few index funds purchase IPO shares. Companies that just IPO'd aren't listed in indexes; it takes a while for them to be added. Then the index funds buy on the secondary market.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by AmericanChopper on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:19AM (#18447911)
Snap comes to mind.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by manigandham on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:33AM (#18447982)
Maybe we have different definitions of thought but there's definitely not a lot of in-depth analysis and due diligence in most deals, as that's how portfolio theory and sufficient deal flow is attained.

What you're talking about with IPOs is not quick or easy, and definitely not guaranteed in any way. Taking a company public essentially counts as an exit for most funds, and if it was that easy to just sell up everything then the entire VC field would look different. That process is more for private equity and banking firms who maneuver through financial engineering rather than early and mid-stage VCs.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by barry-cotter on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @12:44AM (#18447777)
This strategy requires a chain of greater fools. It’s only possible in a bull market because dumb money runs away quickly. If you collect a salary anyway far better to chase FB, Stripe, Airbnb than even think about flipping some company for more than it’s worth.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by rebuilder on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @01:09AM (#18447879)
So... The Index Bubble?
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by hatmatrix on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @11:01AM (#18450847)
Is it possible that brand recognition is sustainable?
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by eismcc on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:11PM (#18447418)
FOMO
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by mvindahl on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @02:45AM (#18448253)
Here in .dk-land we have several Blue Apron style businesses.

The most prominent one started out more than two decades ago by as a kind of subscription service -- every week you'd get a bag containing the produce of the season, along with weird stuff like Hokkaido pumpkins that most people had no idea what to do with.

These days they ship recipes along with the exact quantities of ingredients that you'll need for cooking. Often ingredients that are hard to come by in grocery stores. It's time saving and usually delicious.

Anyway, my point is, they bootstrapped their business, pivoted a bit here and there, and built it to be profitable. So it's certainly doable.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by kbar13 on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @05:37AM (#18448888)
I'd subscribe for a service that provided hard to get ingredients for unique meals. I love cooking and I love trying new things. This would be fun!
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by jrochkind1 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @09:37PM (#18446984)
I wonder if that would have a higher chance of actually being profitable here in the U.S., charging about the same but cutting out the expensive to-your-door delivery. Although there's probably more food wastage.

The article mentioned Blue Apron (and competitors) are trying to increase sales at grocery stores, maybe some of them can survive like that if that works.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by reaperducer on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @10:31PM (#18447235)
I wonder if that would have a higher chance of actually being profitable here in the U.S.

Kroger has these in the U.S. Probably some other chains, too.

I was surprised by how little food you get, and how expensive the Kroger kits are. I expected them to be a cheaper alternative to Blue Apron, but they're about the same price. And at least Blue Apron and its competitors deliver to my door. I have to stop at the supermarket for the store-brand knock-offs.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by TuringNYC on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @10:52PM (#18447330)
With Kroger, they have supply-demand uncertainty plus store-level fracturing. The advantage Blue Apron has over Kroger is better predictability of usage and demand pooling. I think this means more spoilage/waste for Kroger, and hence higher required margins for feasibility.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by coredog64 on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @10:50PM (#18447317)
We had to give up on the Kroger kits because the quality control on the fresh ingredients was terrible. Even with the refund, it was still a time sink.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by flukus on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @10:23PM (#18447196)
> I wonder if that would have a higher chance of actually being profitable here in the U.S., charging about the same but cutting out the expensive to-your-door delivery.

From what I've seen it doesn't help, the in store ones cost almost as a restaurant anyway, But at least a restaurant solves the time consuming part (cooking, cleaning), if your in the store then getting everything packaged together only saves a few minutes.

This is in Australia with a higher minimum wage, I imagine it would make an even smaller difference in the US.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by ghaff on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @10:48PM (#18447310)
I don’t really have good restaurant options around where I live though. I’d prefer to cook at home a lot of the time. But I sometimes prefer it to be a minimum of planning and prep.

But this is the conundrum. If I can pick up a few ingredients, even if there’s some waste, and throw together a meal quickly the meal kits may not add much.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by Symbiote on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:15AM (#18448567)
When I was a student, the local Sainsbury's supermarket in London had recipe cards by the entrance. It was easy enough to find everything in the shop. There were perhaps 30-40 cards to choose from.

This no longer exists, people probably look on their phones, but the restriction in choice was useful.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by Tiktaalik on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @11:31PM (#18447498)
Save-on-Foods in BC has both. There's DIY easy meal kits in the meat aisle and they have a grocery delivery service as well.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by magic_beans on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @09:44PM (#18447023)
I did always wonder why Blue Apron didn't just partner with grocery stores. It makes so much more sense, and my little grocery store in New Amazon HQ, Queens does not have any type of meal kits.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by ahi on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @09:40PM (#18447005)
I have seen it in grocery stores here in the midwest.
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by michaelmior on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:28AM (#18449668)
This probably won't come as a shock to anyone, but I have noticed more convenience foods being sold by supermarkets over the past several years. Things like trays of freshly prepared pre-seasoned food you just throw in the oven. Anecdotally, this seems much less expensive than services like Blue Apron even if it does force you to go pick it up yourself. (Then again, there's always Instacart...)
Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by mrarjen on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:16AM (#18449056)
Exactly, the only advantage that these meal services can possibly offer is perhaps a streamlined way to get ingredients that are less likely sold by supermarkets.

Then again that would be a rather niche market.

Re:Blue Apron lays off more workers by notyourday on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:30AM (#18450037)
I'm guessing you have not really gone to supermarkets recently. There's literally nothing that BlueApron has that is not stocked by most.

This is from 2008:

https://tucson.com/lifestyles/food-and-cooking/jacques-pepin...