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Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by wongarsu on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:02PM (#17971962)
If I buy a game from Steam then contractually that is a rental, but it behaves like a purchase. I can install it anywhere I like, I can back it up to a physical disk, and most importantly I can redownload it in perpetuity; even if the same item is no longer for sale on Steam.

The only risk in comparison to a physical copy is that Valve fundamentally changes or goes bankrupt. Both seem unlikely. This makes any purchase on Steam basically as safe as a physical purchase, resulting in Steam basically replacing physical game purchases on the PC.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by eslaught on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:49PM (#17972494)
Or they delete your account.

I'm not sure about Steam, but there are plenty of horror stories on the internet about "bought X on Y platform and then Y revoked account". The majority of users may never experience this, but the fact is that when you use a service like this you're at the mercy of the service provider, even for basic things like maintaining access to your account.

What I'd like to see is some sort of movement towards "if it looks like a purchase, then it is a purchase". That is, if I pay a one-time up-front free for access to something (even with DRM), we should pass legislation to make it behave like a purchase and limit the shenanigans that providers can pull. (Granted this is a very ill-formed idea and there are lots of details to work out in order to implement it.)

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by MrMember on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:02PM (#17972640)
You are also limited in recourse if Valve screws you over. If a retailer seriously screws me over and I'm not able to resolve the issue with them I can always resort to doing a chargeback. If I try to do a chargeback on Valve they will immediately close my account and I'll lose access to thousands of dollars worth of games that I "bought."
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by craftyguy on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @08:24PM (#17974834)
Is there a limitation on how far back in time you can chargeback? I feel like if I was wronged by Valve and needed to chargeback to make things right, if they closed my accuont, I'd chargeback every purchase (or as many possible) that I made through them.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by artwr on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @08:51PM (#17974978)
For fraud, not usually, but you would have to prove fraud.

For any other reasons most banks/credit card companies put limits between 30 days and a year I believe.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Analemma_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:59PM (#17972603)
> I'm not sure about Steam, but there are plenty of horror stories on the internet about "bought X on Y platform and then Y revoked account".

The worst part about this is that it often happens when consumers exercise their legitimate rights to e.g. chargebacks. And yes, Steam does it too: if you chargeback a Steam purchase, even a fraudulent one where the CC company sides with you after the investigation, usually this will result in your account getting locked and held hostage until you undo the chargeback and eat the cost.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by rosege on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:38AM (#17976319)
I dont know how easy is it to transfer games to another account - but if possible you could do that then initiate the chargeback
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by rizzin on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:37AM (#17976516)
You can't transfer games between accounts on Steam
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by chrisseaton on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:00AM (#17976605)
The customer is exercising their legitimate right to chargeback, and Valve is exercising their legitimate right to not do business with the customer after that.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by moreira on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:10AM (#17976643)
The problem is not that Valve is exercising the right not to do business with them, but that they're taking away everything they ever bought from them. It's akin to me wronging Amazon and they come to my house and pick up everything they ever shipped me, and take it all back.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by felix_nagaand on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:05PM (#17972663)
That's when it's time to sue.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Analemma_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:22PM (#17972836)
The Steam user agreement includes a binding arbitration clause preventing you from suing: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11. There is no escape.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by olzd on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:37PM (#17973038)
Actually there is: be a EU resident. It's even explicitely stated there.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by babypuncher on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:34PM (#17973623)
Have these actually been tested in court? I believe if someone actually decided to sue it would go about as poorly as non-compete clauses in employment contracts.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Analemma_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:54PM (#17973795)
Yes, SCOTUS has repeatedly upheld binding arbitration clauses as valid, and that they even override state law and apply in cases of naked fraud by the company:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc... (binding arbitration overrides state law)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/business/supreme-court-up... (binding arbitration overrides workers' rights)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-... (binding aribtration applies even in cases of fraud and deceptive advertising)

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by caf on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:11AM (#17975949)
In a sense this is just codifying what has always been tacitly true - the court system isn't really intended to protect the common man against the economic, political and social elites, it's primary purpose is as a dispute resolution mechanism among those elites.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by giobox on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:35PM (#17975210)
They teach arbitration and related matters in many law school curriculums now, another sad sign of the continued slide into privatised legal systems.

Unfortunately they have been successfully tested often in many legal systems.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by baddox on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:42AM (#17976542)
If you’re testing an arbitration clause outside of arbitration then it’s already clear that the arbitration clause wasn’t binding.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by wongarsu on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:19PM (#17972808)
When do I have a right to issue a chargeback against Valve? I enter a purchase contract that says that I pay them and they provide me access to a game (or some other item). If I believe they didn't uphold their part and I can't resolve it with customer service I can sue them. Nothing gives me the right to just break my part of the contract and take my money back.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Analemma_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:28PM (#17972930)
> If I believe they didn't uphold their part and I can't resolve it with customer service I can sue them.

Actually no you can't (at least if you're in the US), because the Steam user agreement mandates binding arbitration: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11, where, for all practical purposes, the consumer always loses.

> Nothing gives me the right to just break my part of the contract and take my money back.

The whole point of chargebacks is that they're supposed to give you that right, if the CC company decides that the vendor wronged you. Valve's behavior here is an unethical and unilateral end-run around this process.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by gowld on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:22PM (#17973495)
How is it an "end-run"? Your CC chargeback agreement isn't sacrosanct or a law. It's just another private contract, on par with your contract with Steam.

The real problem is that a Steam "purchase" are fundamentally an undefined-term rental. When you "buy" a gsame, you are buying nothing, and then Steam might let you access a game if they wants you to.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by eslaught on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @07:33PM (#17974528)
Your agreement with the CC provider isn't binging for Valve, but Valve's aggreement with the CC provider is (which they need to even accept cards in the first place).

Admittedly, I don't know that much about the contracts between CC providers and merchants, but in the big picture of things, CC providers are the giants and Valve is the little guy, so I'm pretty sure Valve doesn't have a lot of leverage in those negotiations. Otherwise, presumably the CC provider would be unable to initiate the chargeback in the first place. The fact that the chargeback itself is successful (Valve's retaliation notwithstanding) is evidence that the contract between CC provider and Valve allows chargebacks.

In this particular case, what this probably means is that CC providers need to include a "no retaliation" clause in their contracts for customers who issue legitimate chargebacks. That's assuming CC providers care, and maybe they don't, but point is they have the power to fix this and if it becomes a problem for their customers presumably they will.

But I don't think any of this solves the broader issue though. In general I don't think you can depend on having a powerful authority like a CC provider side with you like this.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by eecc on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:44PM (#17973728)
Welcome to the brave new world of Libertarian Utopia, where all your have is an endless rage over contracts and stipulations... /s
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by pdkl95 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:40PM (#17975235)
Libertarian Utopia dating[1] has too much paperwork, and the nightclub attorney's fees are gradually changing my cocktails into cheap watered down beer. Giving up on interacting with real humans and ordering a Cherry 2000[2] would be a lot easier - and a lot cheaper!

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urS8GmwmeWQ

[2] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8qwvz5/how-cherry...

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by eecc on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:57AM (#17985209)
Will check that out, looks funny enough to dedicate some time to it
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by babypuncher on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:32PM (#17973592)
I question how many of those horror stories are legitimate. Many users who have made these claims have later been revealed to have been violating the platforms rules in an egregious manner (i.e. cheating).
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by yjftsjthsd-h on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @08:33PM (#17974876)
I don't think I care; cheating in a game doesn't seem like sufficient cause to lose it to me. Ban from multiplayer, sure, but lose access to the game or even your whole library? Seems excessive.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Faark on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:43PM (#17980661)
> Ban from multiplayer, sure

That kind of what they are doing. You can still play pretty much anything that doesn't run on VAC-secured servers. There are consequences on the steam community as well, though. The most significant are probably your profile being branded and restrictions on item trade/using the market.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by ionised on Thursday September 13, 2018 @11:07AM (#17979188)
The people who cheat in one online game tend to do it in every one they play.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by oneeyedpigeon on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:19AM (#17976677)
Back in the day, you could enter special codes to cheat, or execute certain button combinations on the controller. There were even various devices that allowed you to cheat. Imagine if doing any of those things made your entire cartridge collection disappear..
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by user3359 on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:49PM (#17982959)
Very different scenarios. If you disliked the person cheating on a console you could smack them upside the head and stop being friends with them. The ramifications for cheating in games designed specifically for multiplayer with many strangers are entirely different.

It's kind of like saying "imagine being arrested for being naked in public omg I do that all the time ... at home". It's different degrees of freedom.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by fandango on Thursday September 13, 2018 @08:22AM (#17977998)
The solution is to just register a new account for every purchase. Better privacy, better protection againsts account freezes/hacks and better resellability. Using social features is a bit of pain, but for me that's not really a feature in the first place. I don't like Steam to become a social platform.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by eikenberry on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:54PM (#17974251)
This is the risk with any online service and you evaluate the customer service of the company as part of the evaluation process of doing business with them. Valve enjoys a pretty good reputation and so most people accept the trade-off.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by oneeyedpigeon on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:21AM (#17976689)
Steam desperately needs competition. It would be interesting to see how much more the market would pay to actually buy games again rather than rent them.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by krageon on Friday September 14, 2018 @09:00AM (#17986849)
For the AAA games that are actually available there, you can compare sales figures between GoG and Steam. It's not great for GoG I imagine, although I do appreciate that service vastly more than I do Steam.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by zbentley on Thursday September 13, 2018 @08:31AM (#17978046)
I agree, but their network effect (among consumers and among game producers, who rely on Steam's wide distribution channels, anticheat/antipiracy tech, and analytics) is so huge that a competitor would have a very hard time.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by androidgirl on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:22PM (#17972189)
As an aside, some games on Steam are DRM free and/or can be run without steam. Stardew Valley and Kerbal Space Program spring to mind.

There is also GOG, which sells DRM-free games. I just keep backups of my games on my NAS.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by plussed_reader on Thursday September 13, 2018 @10:36AM (#17978918)
How often do you replace the NAS?
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by craftyguy on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @08:22PM (#17974823)
> This makes any purchase on Steam basically as safe as a physical purchase, resulting in Steam basically replacing physical game purchases on the PC.

Not entirely, since there's still some dependency on their client to put the game in 'offline mode', which requires phoning home to Valve.

A better example would be gog.com, which gives you the game binary/installer to download and no requirements for phoning home or any other shenanigans for being able to install/play it.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by thirdsun on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:07AM (#17976210)
It's my understanding that the DRM and phoning home is completely optional and up to the developer. Steam is happy to deliver your games DRM-free and without any dependency on their client if the developer/publsiher chooses to do so.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Lorkki on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:31AM (#17976727)
They don't really advertise it, but there's no requirement to use DRM on Steam: http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by always_good on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @08:37PM (#17974906)
I found out the hard way that you can't play a single Steam game if you haven't connected it to the internet in 30 days.

Nothing clarifies the difference between purchase and rental when you try booting Steam up on a laptop for a 12 hour bus ride across Mexico and you can't play a single game.

You just have this "meh, hasn't affected me" mindset.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by gspetr on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:14PM (#17975101)
Wouldn't adjusting the system's clock circumvent this?

I do agree with your point that this is a bad thing in the first place.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by always_good on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:51PM (#17990358)
That's the first thing I tried but it didn't work. Maybe it would've worked before I booted Steam in the first place, but you'd think Steam would've coded around that obvious circumvention.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by xg15 on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:01PM (#17979638)
I might be wrong, but don't modern TPMs have their own internal clocks to prevent exactly this?
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by diffeomorphism on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:21PM (#17972822)
> The only risk in comparison to a physical copy is that Valve fundamentally changes or goes bankrupt

Or that somebody phishes your login data or that your account is banned for some reason or that the drm servers for a game you bought are now offline (you still have the installer, but can't use it anymore)... . I also like steam, but it is still very much "all eggs in one basket" and while some of the games on there are drm-free many aren't. gog.com is better in that regard.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by slezyr on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:03PM (#17972646)
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by xg15 on Thursday September 13, 2018 @11:55AM (#17979581)
Yes, and those rentals-that-feel-like-purchases seem to be increasingly how new products and services are distributed whenever the providers can get away with it. You don't just see them with games, but also with movies (as described), music, e-books and, more recently, software suites, IoT devices and cars(!).

Which makes sense: For the involved businesses there are enormous upsides to this kind of deal: Instead of giving your product out of hand, you enter a long-term relationship with the consumer, you get the money and remain in full control over the product, you can define in unprecedented detail how your customers are permitted to use the product, you can use that control as leverage in contracts with other businesses, etc, etc.

Consumers usually don't mind because, indeed, it feels like you own the product. Until stuff like the OP happens and they realize it was a lie.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by kipchak on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:25PM (#17972229)
A concern I've heard brought up is if games are no longer supported on a new version of Windows, but steam and steamworks DRM is no longer able to run on an old version of Windows that the game is compatible with.

Sometimes games like this are removed from the Steam store, like World in Conflict, and can be made to work with some tweaking. But for a decent number of people that can be a problem, and there's no guarantee that will always be possible.

To be fair this is dependent on the specific DRM type, if the game receives any kind of fan/official updates to solve the issue, and there's not exactly an easy way out for Valve. Plus games that have to phone in to a central server to work are going to be more of an issue anyway so by comparison Steamworks DRM is doing pretty well.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by komali2 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:40PM (#17973062)
>back it up to a physical disk

Really? How? It still needs the steam client to run, yea?

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by patmcguire on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:32PM (#17972308)
Or you file a chargeback, or someone playing on your account uses an aimbot, or anything else that attracts their unilateral ire.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by mcguire on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:26PM (#17975157)
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by afandian on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:21PM (#17972186)
I don't know anything about Valve. But if I cancel my Amazon account, I doubt that I would be able to keep all the books I bought.