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Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Analemma_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:59PM (#17972603)
> I'm not sure about Steam, but there are plenty of horror stories on the internet about "bought X on Y platform and then Y revoked account".

The worst part about this is that it often happens when consumers exercise their legitimate rights to e.g. chargebacks. And yes, Steam does it too: if you chargeback a Steam purchase, even a fraudulent one where the CC company sides with you after the investigation, usually this will result in your account getting locked and held hostage until you undo the chargeback and eat the cost.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by rosege on Thursday September 13, 2018 @01:38AM (#17976319)
I dont know how easy is it to transfer games to another account - but if possible you could do that then initiate the chargeback
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by rizzin on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:37AM (#17976516)
You can't transfer games between accounts on Steam
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by chrisseaton on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:00AM (#17976605)
The customer is exercising their legitimate right to chargeback, and Valve is exercising their legitimate right to not do business with the customer after that.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by moreira on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:10AM (#17976643)
The problem is not that Valve is exercising the right not to do business with them, but that they're taking away everything they ever bought from them. It's akin to me wronging Amazon and they come to my house and pick up everything they ever shipped me, and take it all back.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by felix_nagaand on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:05PM (#17972663)
That's when it's time to sue.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Analemma_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:22PM (#17972836)
The Steam user agreement includes a binding arbitration clause preventing you from suing: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11. There is no escape.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by olzd on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:37PM (#17973038)
Actually there is: be a EU resident. It's even explicitely stated there.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by babypuncher on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:34PM (#17973623)
Have these actually been tested in court? I believe if someone actually decided to sue it would go about as poorly as non-compete clauses in employment contracts.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Analemma_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:54PM (#17973795)
Yes, SCOTUS has repeatedly upheld binding arbitration clauses as valid, and that they even override state law and apply in cases of naked fraud by the company:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc... (binding arbitration overrides state law)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/business/supreme-court-up... (binding arbitration overrides workers' rights)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-... (binding aribtration applies even in cases of fraud and deceptive advertising)

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by caf on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:11AM (#17975949)
In a sense this is just codifying what has always been tacitly true - the court system isn't really intended to protect the common man against the economic, political and social elites, it's primary purpose is as a dispute resolution mechanism among those elites.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by giobox on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:35PM (#17975210)
They teach arbitration and related matters in many law school curriculums now, another sad sign of the continued slide into privatised legal systems.

Unfortunately they have been successfully tested often in many legal systems.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by baddox on Thursday September 13, 2018 @02:42AM (#17976542)
If you’re testing an arbitration clause outside of arbitration then it’s already clear that the arbitration clause wasn’t binding.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by wongarsu on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:19PM (#17972808)
When do I have a right to issue a chargeback against Valve? I enter a purchase contract that says that I pay them and they provide me access to a game (or some other item). If I believe they didn't uphold their part and I can't resolve it with customer service I can sue them. Nothing gives me the right to just break my part of the contract and take my money back.
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by Analemma_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:28PM (#17972930)
> If I believe they didn't uphold their part and I can't resolve it with customer service I can sue them.

Actually no you can't (at least if you're in the US), because the Steam user agreement mandates binding arbitration: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11, where, for all practical purposes, the consumer always loses.

> Nothing gives me the right to just break my part of the contract and take my money back.

The whole point of chargebacks is that they're supposed to give you that right, if the CC company decides that the vendor wronged you. Valve's behavior here is an unethical and unilateral end-run around this process.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by gowld on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:22PM (#17973495)
How is it an "end-run"? Your CC chargeback agreement isn't sacrosanct or a law. It's just another private contract, on par with your contract with Steam.

The real problem is that a Steam "purchase" are fundamentally an undefined-term rental. When you "buy" a gsame, you are buying nothing, and then Steam might let you access a game if they wants you to.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by eslaught on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @07:33PM (#17974528)
Your agreement with the CC provider isn't binging for Valve, but Valve's aggreement with the CC provider is (which they need to even accept cards in the first place).

Admittedly, I don't know that much about the contracts between CC providers and merchants, but in the big picture of things, CC providers are the giants and Valve is the little guy, so I'm pretty sure Valve doesn't have a lot of leverage in those negotiations. Otherwise, presumably the CC provider would be unable to initiate the chargeback in the first place. The fact that the chargeback itself is successful (Valve's retaliation notwithstanding) is evidence that the contract between CC provider and Valve allows chargebacks.

In this particular case, what this probably means is that CC providers need to include a "no retaliation" clause in their contracts for customers who issue legitimate chargebacks. That's assuming CC providers care, and maybe they don't, but point is they have the power to fix this and if it becomes a problem for their customers presumably they will.

But I don't think any of this solves the broader issue though. In general I don't think you can depend on having a powerful authority like a CC provider side with you like this.

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by eecc on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:44PM (#17973728)
Welcome to the brave new world of Libertarian Utopia, where all your have is an endless rage over contracts and stipulations... /s
Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by pdkl95 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:40PM (#17975235)
Libertarian Utopia dating[1] has too much paperwork, and the nightclub attorney's fees are gradually changing my cocktails into cheap watered down beer. Giving up on interacting with real humans and ordering a Cherry 2000[2] would be a lot easier - and a lot cheaper!

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urS8GmwmeWQ

[2] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8qwvz5/how-cherry...

Re:Apple can delete purchased movies from your library witho... by eecc on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:57AM (#17985209)
Will check that out, looks funny enough to dedicate some time to it