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Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by elvinyung on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:09AM (#17957317)
Here's a possible hot take: when will we start treating this as a systemic and structural issue? When will we stop privatizing the issue of mental health, treating it exclusively as basically chemical imbalances within individual bodies, and start recognizing that there must be something deeper, something perhaps cultural or political, at work here?
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by retube on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:17AM (#17957334)
Not to trivialize people with genuine issues, but experiencing "stress, anxiety and low mood" is completely normal and natural. In fact not experiencing these kinds of emotions from time to time would indicate an issue! I do wonder whether the scope of what's deemed "mental illness" is being widened
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by TheSmiddy on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:41AM (#17957425)
This argument is the equivalent of a climate change denier stating "the climate is always changing".

Anecdotally the percentage of my friends who I would describe as unhappy has been increasing over time. In my early 20's at most 10% of my friends would be unhappy at any given moment, now in my 30's I feel like a solid 25% of my friends are noticeably unhappy and god knows how many are good at putting on a brave face. I don't know how much of this is just due to getting older or something specific to how our society is operating at this current point in history.

When I talk to people from my parents generation I get the feeling that on average every year of their life was better than the last up until about 40, whereas it feels like the opposite is true for people today.

I too am worried about the increasing scope of what determines a mental illness, but at the same time if your environment can cause you to get Pneumonia, it makes sense that your environment can cause you to experience clinical depression.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cs02rm0 on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:01AM (#17957916)
Being more stressed in your 30s than your early 20s is probably normal too.

You've got less time on the planet, I've got a wife and three kids to support now, career options are vastly more limited, incurred massive debt to buy a house. But hey, things are going comparatively well for me relative to many of my peers.

It seems really hard to compare between generations. Things are so different, but if mental health is towards the top of the pile of concerns now we should probably address it regardless of whether it's really a bigger issue than today than it was previously.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by skohan on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @06:39AM (#17958499)
Normal in the context of how our society is structured, but far from ideal or unavoidable.

For instance, I can compare the experience of my cousin raising two young kids on the east coast of the US with my girlfriend's sister in the same situation in Italy.

In my cousin's case, she had to go back to work almost immediately in order to pay the high rents where she lives, and money's a constant stress because of the price of a decent daycare/preschool. Family's far away, so essentially all the childcare responsibilities fall on her and her husband.

In contrast, my girlfriend's sister had 9 months of paid maternity leave with which she could stay home with the baby without undue financial stress. When she returned to work part time, she didn't have to rely on commercial childcare because her large extended family is close by to share the burden. In general that makes her and her husband's life more relaxed, because if they want to go away for the odd weekend they can leave the kids with grandma.

If you ask me, the work culture is deeply pathological in places like the US and UK. With the rise in technology and automation there's no reason we couldn't live in societies which prioritize our human needs more highly.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cableshaft on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:48AM (#17960188)
Except for the long period of paid maternity leave, there's no reason someone in the US couldn't have what the Italian woman has. I know several parents that live close to their extended family and get help watching and raising their kids all the time.

It's one of the reasons why I haven't moved to Silicon Valley after all these years, because I don't want to leave my familial and friend support network behind. It's resulted in much lower income for me, but that's the trade off.

Although it doesn't have to be necessarily. For example in my case, I could possibly find a well-paying remote job. I'm already working remotely currently, albeit for a company that's local and doesn't pay anywhere near as well.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by dvdhnt on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:07AM (#17960390)
> I know several parents that live close to their extended family and get help watching and raising their kids all the time.

Anecdotal evidence is a fallacy.

It's equivalent to saying that "smoking a pack each day doesn't kill you because my grandfather smoked until he was 97." As ridiculous as that sounds compared to what you're saying, they are nonetheless equal in terms of evidence.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cableshaft on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @12:30PM (#17961187)
All I said was that it's possible, I'm not arguing that it happens all the time. I know plenty of people that don't live near their families too.

To say something is possible, all it takes is one result, in which an anecdote is fine. Someone providing an anecdote doesn't guarantee a fallacy in all cases.

It's a choice for people to move away from their safety nets (unless bad things happen to their families, and I certainly know some people who have grown up in broken homes. I dated a few people in that situation). It's not always a good choice, or the best choice, but it's still a choice.

The parent only provided a single anecdote to "show" how things worked in Italy as well. I was just showing how his anecdote wasn't enough evidence to prove his point that things work differently in Italy compared to the US.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by philipov on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:59AM (#17960307)
Not everyone has the privilege of choosing where to live, or even the possibility of remote work. People go where they can find work, and this often forces someone away from their support network. The cost of having a national labor market is that you can't rely on locally available jobs to match the locally available labor force.

Some lucky person might get the local job that matches their skills, but the 10 other people looking for the same job will be forced to move.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cableshaft on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @12:37PM (#17961256)
As someone who works for a lot less money than I could be making and in an industry I am not excited about in the least (insurance...technically business process outsourcing but our clients are all insurance companies), I don't know about the word forced. I have been choosing a suboptimal career so I can be near my support network. It's hard sometimes, really hard, especially knowing I could easily be making $100k+ more than I'm making right now and working on something I care about at least a little bit more, but I am making that choice.

I realize it can be extra difficult in some markets. I'm at least near a metropolitan area, so there's some jobs (hardly any that excite me, but there are some). I've worked plenty of shitty jobs in my life and nowhere near the software dev world in order to stay in my hometown . Unless the job market completely dries up in your town, it's a choice that can be made.

It's similar to all the people who get majors in humanities or psychology or marketing and then end up working as a barista at Starbucks once they graduate. It's far from ideal, but sometimes people really don't want to move across the country for their jobs (or can't).

Again, I'm not saying it's a great choice, or the right choice to stay near your support network necessarily. I haven't lived away from them so I don't have any idea firsthand. But I think it's a bit myopic to think you are forced to always go wherever the maximum amount of jobs or money to be made is, support network be damned.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by philipov on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @12:53PM (#17961378)
I don't think one is always forced, but I think there is always someone who is forced. As you said yourself, it could be even harder for someone else. If you take the barista job, someone else isn't going to get it. And is a barista job actually going to provide maternity benefits or pay enough to raise a child? "Maybe sometimes" doesn't make a good national policy.

Do you feel that the sacrifice you have made to stay near your support network is worth the value of your support network? By which I mean, if you had a child, is your support network wealthy enough to provide the resources to help you raise that child? For many people, their support network is itself getting squeezed. What do you do if your friends and relatives themselves have to work 60 hours a week and aren't available to help watch your baby while you work?

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cableshaft on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:10PM (#17961507)
I don't currently have a child but in the next two or three years I am planning to have one. Other people in the family have had children recently, though, and I am seeing how they are being helped out and they're getting a lot of assistance, including free babysitting, which by itself is crazy expensive (can be more expensive than one person's income nowadays, which is why some people are becoming stay at home parents now).

I also don't know how I'd be able to afford buying a house if I moved to somewhere like Silicon Valley, whereas I've bought a home here, and I'd rather not go back to renting if I can help it.

Also, one of my professional hobbies is board game design and I have built up a pretty good local network for playtesting and have gotten to know several designers and publishers in the area (even got my first game signed), plus I am within driving distance of the two of the biggest game conventions in the US, where I can network even further, so that's another factor keeping me away from the west coast.

So there are other unrelated factors that are influencing the decision, it's not a total black and white affair. Although I was still making the decision to stick around even before these were a thing.

I do agree with you that people's support networks are probably getting squeezed more than in the past (income inequality is on the rise, tuition, health expenses, etc are skyrocketing, so everyone is getting squeezed). I did say it's not necessarily the best decision for someone to make. It might not even be the best decision for me to make. But I'm still doing it, and I see tons of people do it every day, especially once they have families. I also see tons of people choose to move away from their networks, and again that may be the best thing to do, I just don't think sticking around should be assumed to be the wrong decision in pretty much all cases for the country as a whole, which seemed to be the assumption that was made.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by philipov on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:20PM (#17961600)
I think the problem is precisely that society is being squeezed to the point that many people's support networks are breaking down, forcing them into moving to keep up with labor demand, for the sake of keeping labor supply cheep and powerless in the market. We are being offered a perverse choice at the outset, and being resistant to that coercive influence is the form that privilege takes. For the modestly privileged it's a difficult choice, and for the very privileged it's an easy choice.

> Except for the long period of paid maternity leave, there's no reason someone in the US couldn't have what the Italian woman has. I know several parents that live close to their extended family and get help watching and raising their kids all the time.

This is the part about which we disagree. You are generalizing from several people you know to say there is no reason someone else can't do it. The reason is that not everyone is lucky enough to know the kind of people you do. When you say "someone" it sounds like you really mean just yourself.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cableshaft on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @02:36PM (#17962185)
Fair enough. I guess using the words 'no reason' went a bit too far. I didn't realize I had done that. Afterwards I repeatedly said that for some people it might not be the best decision for them to make, though, so for me to assert that, clearly there must be some reasons for those people to decide otherwise.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by skohan on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:18AM (#17960500)
Yeah the maternity leave situation is more structural than the extended family situation for sure. However I'd argue that the fact that people in the US tend to move farther for work stems from the same societal values that result in the lack of political will to enact mandatory paid parental leave.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cableshaft on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @12:39PM (#17961276)
Well, considering the entirety of the landmass of Italy is approximately the same size as the state of California, it's not really a surprise that Americans tend to move farther away. If Italy was the same size as the US, its centers of industry would probably be much further spaced out as well, as it is in the US.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by skohan on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @12:54PM (#17961386)
That would have been more of an argument before the EU. Europeans have freedom of movement within the EEA, so Italy vs US is not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cableshaft on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:28PM (#17961669)
Of course it's not apples to apples, that's kind of my point. The parent was the one trying to compare Italy to the US.

But for the sake of argument, I don't know to what extent Italians move great distances compared to the US, but I would imagine that most people tend to want to stay stick within their culture if they can get away with it. At least their primary spoken language.

The US provides a large landmass full of pretty much the same culture, same language, etc, somewhat divided between rural vs urban or conservative vs liberal, whereas Italians wanting to speak Italian and live among mostly Italians are going to have fewer options in the EU to choose from.

And I have no idea where the centers of industry are in Europe in general or Italy in specific, so I could not venture a guess as to how far apart they are. But if someone in Italy wants to stay in Italy and work in Italy, they have to go somewhere. And the furthest they can go is about the same distance as the state of California.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by user3359 on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:37AM (#17960078)
I'll say I broadly agree that we should be moving towards a more evenly distributed system, and I'm a huge fan of the idea of basic income for the reason you outlined: giving people options.

The caveat IMO is that having children is an incredibly selfish decision, and that decision shouldn't be publicly subsidized. It should come out of your discretionary spending. If we each get $2000/month and a kid costs you $1000/month, then you have to live off $1000/month, which means not living in overpriced areas.

You can have anything you want in life, but you can't have everything.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by cableshaft on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:51AM (#17960219)
Except if no one has kids, then our society collapses. So if society wants to keep its little engine moving, it's GDP going up up up every year, houses being bought, Social Security paid for, etc, it needs to at the very least not discourage the decision to have children so much that hardly anyone does it.

It also seems that government that invest in children tend to have future generations of better educated, better adjusted, and better contributing members of society, which I feel is worth at least some investment.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by user3359 on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @12:58PM (#17961416)
Truthfully, I think we should be discouraging having children. There's too many people working too late in life that my peer group struggles to find meaningful work.

A generation ago, people retired in their 50s and opened up jobs to the next generation, then died 10 years later and left family money to the next generation that could be used for housing.

I don't have a single friend in my peer group who can afford housing, let alone has the income to raise children, if they don't have family money. Upward mobility into the well paying jobs is non existent, with 20 years of people in between them and executive level careers.

People aren't going to stop having kids. It's too engrained in our society and genes. But with automation and an increasingly elderly workforce, job prospects are bad now and will continue to get worse for kids born in the last 10 years.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by dvdhnt on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:02AM (#17960336)
> Except if no one has kids, then our society collapses.

Ah, ha! The top 1% are already on it.. they're pumping fortunes into defeating mortality as we speak.

For those of us who can't afford it, I'm sure they'll be happy to extend our lives in return for some kind of "temporary" employment unto them, at least until we've repaid our debt...

/s

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by iovrthoughtthis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:29AM (#17958035)
But is normal ok?
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by m_fayer on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @06:56AM (#17958567)
For a long time in many places, living in grinding poverty was and is "normal" and "natural" for most people. Living with all sorts of insecurity - food, physical safety, shelter - all normal. Evolution only selected for those of us who manage to reproduce individually and societally, not for those who tend to live to a ripe old age with a minimum of misery. I really don't get this formulation of "x miserable condition is perfectly natural!" when "natural" so often == "miserable".
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by YinglingLight on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @08:33AM (#17959101)
Yes, but this is specifically about mental health.

I believe the increased level of physical activity, combined with greater in-person socialization/community of our forefathers allowed them greater mental health (and with it, greater resiliency) than people of today.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by emodendroket on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:09AM (#17959810)
Perhaps, but what is the evidence that that was the case or that the causes you cite are the ones to credit?
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by danharaj on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:38AM (#17960687)
Hardship and misery aren't the same thing.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by frabcus on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:28AM (#17957381)
Mental illnesses have psychological (eg issues from childhood), chemical (eg neurotransmitter balance) and yes social (communication and meaning) aspects.

It's easy to pay attention to only one (a definition shift would be social/communication), but all three matter.

These illnesses are failure modes at a mid level in the most complex information processing device in the universe. There's a lot going on - it's not so much definition shift, as this is complex, and yes it is a communal cry for help in part.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by aszantu on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:40AM (#17957422)
I want to add allergies to your list :) Personal experience: Ketogenic died made my depression go away almost over night
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by djsumdog on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:30AM (#17958039)
Diet plays a huge role in mood; and we normalize "comfort eating" way too much.

You cut out sugar from your diet and you will feel better. We consume an insane amount in western societies and it's not good physically or mentally.

You can't just focus on mental health without the physical health because they are so dependent. I feel like we're deeply missing that point today.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by dvdhnt on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:11AM (#17960434)
> Diet plays a huge role in mood.

I've seen many articles lately on the relationship between what's in our gut and our mental health. Their source escapes me at the moment, but here's a paper on the relationship between diet and mental health: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4167107/

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by DanBC on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @08:05AM (#17958921)
Notice the submitted article doesn't talk about "mental illness" but about "poor mental health".

I can have poor physical health without having a specific disease. I can have poor mental health without having a specific mental illness.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by kneel on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:24AM (#17957371)
Pretty sure this study took normal mood fluctuations into consideration.

Poor mental health probably means poor mental health.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by stronglikedan on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:47AM (#17957442)
I think this article is eluding to the problem of sustained stress, anxiety and low mood, which lead to abnormal chemical imbalances that cannot easily be overcome. Once the imbalance becomes impossible to overcome without external support, it becomes a legitimate illness (mental, in this context) that requires treatment.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by megous on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @02:31AM (#17957573)
Chemical imbalance (as a cause of depression or anxiety) is just a hypothesis (one of many). It's heavily used for marketing, because people can easily imagine something behind it, that's easily corrected by what companies sell (more chemicals), but it's most probably nonsense.

Though your underlying point is observably valid. People can get into a state where it's hard for them to improve their well being without outside intervention.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by stronglikedan on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:42AM (#17960118)
As someone who had such a chemical imbalance that was corrected by medication, I can assure you it's definitely not nonsense (although I thought the same as you until I went through it myself).
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by megous on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:15AM (#17965724)
I appreciate that you took pills and felt change. It, by itself, doesn't prove that there's a specific chemical imbalance in the brain, or that it causes depression or anxiety.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by stronglikedan on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:10AM (#17968234)
It doesn't, but all the science behind the pills does. They weren't created for no reason.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by megous on Thursday September 13, 2018 @06:26PM (#17983229)
What science? Most of it is focused on whether the drug has effect compared to placebo/other pills, what unintended effects it has, and not on trying to understand how brain works.

Pill may have effect, yet the hypothesis may still be nonsense. Chemical imbalance hypothesis is really old, and doesn't account for a lot of new information since last 50-60 years.

It's in principle the same problem as when psychotherapists/clinicians try to develop a theory of mind. The result is that we have several major contradictory theories of mind/schools of psychotherapy, and all of them work/are helpful. Yet the usefulness can not be used to validate the underlying theories of mind the methods are based on, because that would mean that all of those theories are valid.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by projektir on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:59AM (#17957910)
I mean human misery is also completely normal and natural, that doesn't mean we're not going to notice it and point it out when we get better tools for identifying it...
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by amelius on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @05:13AM (#17958191)
The lines of what is a mental illness are blurry. That doesn't mean we should stop paying attention when the "blurry blob" moves left or right on the chart.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by mywacaday on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:39AM (#17958074)
Anecdotal evidence of one person close to me, saw the benefits in the use of anti depressants but what I didn't expect was that when the person came off them they laughed more, the anti-depressants might reduce the lows but they also dimmed the highs.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:44AM (#17960149)
The point where negative emotions become homeostatic dysfunction is the point where they've become a legitimate health issue. Yeah, sometimes life hurts, but if you're getting hypertension because of work stress, fuck your job.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by Bartweiss on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:35AM (#17960653)
> I do wonder whether the scope of what's deemed "mental illness" is being widened

There are two questions here, I think.

One is whether we're confusing regular moods with larger conditions, and the answer is generally no. Conditions like anxiety have time thresholds of persistent symptoms to avoid this issue, and other conditions like panic disorders describe things that many people never experience.

The second is whether the scope of what's diagnosable is broadening on any axis. And there, we can say: yes, consciously so. The US standards for diagnosing mental illness (the DSM definitions) have been steadily moving away from attempts to determine who has a 'real' mental illness in favor of symptoms-based diagnoses. The standard for e.g. anxiety excludes anxiety from drugs (legal or not) and physical health problems, but says nothing about whether the long-term anxiety is 'justified' or a reasonable reaction to circumstances.

It's partly an acknowledgement that lots of appraisals are made quickly and on circumstantial evidence, so we might as well issue circumstantial decisions instead of assigning grand theories that might not apply. And it's partly about the fact that many treatments are circumstance-agnostic; absent other options, someone who's constantly anxious because they have high debt and a stressful job will see basically the same benefits from CBT or medications as someone without circumstantial issues.

But it's also a concession to just how little we understand a lot of mental illnesses. There's no particular sign that anxiety-the-disorder is anything but high activity from the system everyone has, and we're not sure why it seems to be so much more active in certain people, so there's no objective test to run. Which means either relying on a clinician's judgement about what's 'justified' anxiety, with all the cultural biases and doctor-shopping that invites, or admitting that it's an unclear question and bypassing it.

(This looks a bit different when we do understand the biological mechanisms of a disorder, or at least know that certain treatments are conditional. As an example, nicotine helps decrease the symptom intensity of schizophrenia, but doesn't for most other hallucinatory or delusional disorders. And other conditions like ASPD or ADHD have foggy partial understandings that leave them in the middle.)

One way of framing this is that we're pathologizing normal reactions. But another is that we have a system built to treat certain unpleasant conditions, and we're recognizing that it can operate on more pain than we'd previously realized. A lot of historical support mechanisms have ceased to support most people, both formal (priests running confessionals and doing relationship mediation) and informal (the death of the 'third place', fraternal organization membership, etc.) If the problem is "many people are sad and stressed by their work", assigning the care of those feelings to our sadness-and-stress support framework makes sense. Ideally we might change people's work circumstances instead, but this looks like at worst a return to the historical approach.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by spiritcat on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:22AM (#17957360)
na internet done made us all crazy
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by dalbasal on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:56AM (#17960874)
The question in my mind is "who is we." Where we is "we the people," or somesuch acting through our medical establishments.. we get what we have. Medicalizing & treating as we do other ailments. The reason we use drugs instead of talk or behavioural therapies is because they are cheap or rather that recurring 1-on-1 therapy is very expensive.

What does treating this systemically mean? We are increasingly treating mental health as systemic/epidemic problems via the medical systems. However, this generally means doing more diagnosing and treating of mental health in the same way.

There isn't really an embodied "we" that makes decisions and takes actions at a cultural level. That is, no way of changing how people interact with eachother individuals doing it.

A religious society might have a church that could do this. A local cleric could (for example) try and relieve loneliness in her community.

I don't know of any body that could really affect how work culture works.

Some things just develop in societies and "we" just don't act as a non-metaphorical "we." Cultural change works this way, mostly.

If we're talking about a "we" that's me, you and a few other people, then we could definitely do a lot about mental health for some people.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by 50 on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @02:46AM (#17957630)
I'm pretty certain cultural and social conditioning is a large, if not the entire, part of the problem with poor mental health (and not just poor mental health!). Take this line from Andrei Tarkovsky's Sculpting in Time: "Modern mass culture, aimed at the 'consumer', the civilisation of prosthetics, is crippling people's souls, setting up barriers between man and the crucial questions of his existence, his consciousness of himself as a spiritual being." This is not something new. The severity of the problem has just heightened because of the information age.

But otherwise, since this topic interests me greatly, I would definitely love to hear why you might think poor mental health may be due to something like culture and politics? Possible solutions?

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by elvinyung on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @02:56AM (#17957672)
I am not an original thinker. My main reference for this topic has been the cultural theorist Mark Fisher. In Capitalist Realism he not only describes the privatization I mentioned previously, but also introduces two ideas that he ascribes to the neoliberal condition (based on anecdata of young people from his experiences as a professor):

* reflexive impotence, in which people know that things are bad and that they can't do anything about it, leading to a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy en masse

* depressive hedonia, in which people are depressed, but instead of being unable to seek pleasure, they basically can't do anything except seek pleasure (to consume more, faster, etc.)

He also has another book, Ghosts of My Life, in which he talks about how we're essentially collectively "haunted" by the possible futures that failed to materialize. I've yet to read it, but I've heard it's fascinating.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by ak39 on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:08AM (#17957713)
Ah, thank you for these two points and the book suggestions!

I too am not an original thinker and I often synthesize ideas on this matter incoherently. But how is it that it is not universally accepted that the structure of employment, even in its most compassionate incarnation, is a structure that is designed to humiliate and strip the dignity of the employee? And then we have the modern employment contract that explicitly forbids talent to be shared with other employers, or for allegiance to be enunciated in corporate culture slogans drummed to death as though attempting to wash away the employee's identity.

Maybe things are different in different cultures vis-a-vis the structure of employment. Japan for example where Salary Man choose to willingly marry his corporation for a lifetime.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by elvinyung on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:21AM (#17957766)
I think about this a lot, too -- usually using (slightly-insane) poststructuralist thought as a starting point. For example Deleuze and Guattari have written a lot about basically what I'd like to cheekily call "structure as stricture" -- the idea that the structured systems in our society serve mainly to oppress us and repress our affects, Freud/Oedipus-style [1]. (I'm not an anarchist, but nevertheless this thought is a good starting point.)

Japan is an interesting place. I want to think of Japanese corporate employment as basically equivalent to citizenship in other countries. For example they have very little social insurance programs, instead relying on corporations to provide such benefits (社会保険). For better or for worse, in the neoliberal era, this idea of corporate employment as the new citizenship might be being exported overseas.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Oedipus

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by emodendroket on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:14AM (#17959861)
I mean the US also devolves a lot of social welfare handling to employers; most obviously insurance.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by ak39 on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:13AM (#17957729)
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by elvinyung on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:26AM (#17957792)
Yeah -- this is precisely why this idea of the privatization of mental health is so important, at least in my mind.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by Maybestring on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:27PM (#17962537)
This is basically the left take.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/mental-health-psychiatry-clas...

'The rise of psychiatry was funded by America’s Gilded Age industrialists. Their aim: to cast society’s ills as problems of individual "mental health."'

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by bluntfang on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:37AM (#17960674)
I like the perspective that the DSM-* is a collection of behaviors that don't fit the current societal norms and is the attempt to correct people who don't/can't subscribe/adhere to these norms through medicine.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by shubb on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:57AM (#17960882)
Some people who don't fit in are labeled for sure, but other people are definitely ill.

A middle class teenager expected to focus on math and prepare for a desk job is inappropriately diagnosed with something, when they might have been a tallented athlete.

A clever, responsible man with a comfortable life suddenly hears voices that tell him his lifelong friends are poisoning him, and is incapable of seeing that this is a delusion, so he kills them.

The first doesn't preclude the other, and I don't think the second one is merely 'behaviors that don't fit the current societal norms'.

Sometimes brains go wrong. If you don't believe me, take a bunch of acid.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by modoc on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:57AM (#17960877)
That's an... interesting.. take.. There's a slice of that which is probably accurate, or at least something we could have a legitimate discussion about. However there's a lot of very REAL mental illness that is extremely detrimental to the people suffering from it, and from those around them, that has nothing to do with societal norms (in the way you mean). I'd also point out that the DSM isn't just used by psychiatrists (who give medicine) but is used by courts, psychologists, therapists, etc... who are dealing with treatment and therapy outside of prescribing drugs...
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by kzrdude on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:41AM (#17957424)
The biggest issue is I think lack of sleep, and sometimes you need professional help to fix it or even realize you should
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by DanBC on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @07:49AM (#17958808)
> treating it exclusively as basically chemical imbalances within individual bodies

Dunno where you live but over here we stopped doing that fucking years ago. This is why things like IAPT (Improved access to psychotherapy, a short course of normally cognitive behavioural therapy) has been the recommended frontline treatment for many mild to moderate mental ill health problems for years. In the UK psychologists are important members of multidisciplinary teams, and psychological therapies are strongly recommended in NICE guidance for a wide range of problems.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by FrojoS on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @08:05AM (#17958928)
I think the parent was hinting at a culture that leads to depression, e.g. due to high pressure to show economic success.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by odiroot on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:04AM (#17957924)
I think you're trivializing it a bit in here. For many people it is indeed a chemical imbalance and no amount of wishful thinking would change anything, but regulating with chemicals (obviously) does.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by Kiro on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @01:54AM (#17957455)
Because your whole premise may not necessarily be true. First step is to evaluate it, not the other way around as you suggest.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by elvinyung on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @02:12AM (#17957503)
Just curious -- what did you interpret my premise to be?

To clarify, I think that this issue is so obviously overdetermined that we need to tackle all of the causes, not just any one.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by WalterSear on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:36AM (#17960668)
When our corporate oligarchs consider a path to greater ownership and control over society.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by StudyAnimal on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @06:50AM (#17958541)
People have been trying for years to undo this damage, Deming, Ohno etc. nowadays it’s probably mostly the agile community leading the way but I feel the curve is trending downwards. Most people here hate agile especially the fluffy cultural bits, and crave the pressure of a Silicon Valley startup.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by acdha on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @06:58AM (#17958577)
> Most people here hate agile especially the fluffy cultural bits, and crave the pressure of a Silicon Valley startup.

That last bit seems like you may be extrapolating from a very small sample size. Hating on some of the Agile culture, sure, but are there really that many people wanting more stress? Most of the Agile reaction I’ve seen seems like the opposite direction with people wanting to improve work-life balance, or drop the parts of consultant-driven Agile which are just adding ceremony without benefit.

Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by itronitron on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @07:46AM (#17958794)
A lot of the complaints on Agile are on its use as a system to micromanage. My experiences with Agile involve it being applied to a subset of the organization and in a limited fashion, for example only having standups and no planning meetings.
Re:Poor mental health at work 'widespread' by acdha on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:03PM (#17965292)
I think there’s also a good argument that much of what’s termed Agile, especially the annoying parts, really isn’t. For example, the importance of teams choosing how to work rather than having dogma forced on them:

https://martinfowler.com/articles/agile-aus-2018.html