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Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @12:25PM (#17910203)
An aircraft carrier can't turn on a dime but when it eventually does turn around you've got a fuckin' aircraft carrier!

Tesla quietly crept around and made electric cars cool and economically viable while the industry had it's backs turned. They've certainly succeeded in becoming a reputable brand, everyone's at least heard of them. It remains to be seen whether they'll continue to be viable once the incumbents bring into play their ability to write fat checks and spin up production facilities without teething issues at every turn. The big players in the car industry aren't ignoring EVs anymore.

Personally, my money is on GM dominating the market. Maybe there's a place for Tesla and some of the later players in the high end.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by Keyframe on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:30PM (#17910935)
Reminds me of digital film cameras (professional). There were attempts, but RED showed the way how one can make a cheaper and capable digital film camera usable for production. It was great for them, it was great for the market, life was good.

Eventually, ARRI (a 100 year-old film company) turned around and what they've made obliterated almost everything from film space RED made. They still have space, but not in the market segment they have entered at first.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by felipemnoa on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @05:39PM (#17913043)
A counter anecdote to this is the iPhone. During the iPhone's release there were three smartphone giants: Blackberry, Nokia, Motorola. The tree companies tried their best to attack Apple but failed. The iPhone pretty much killed them. All it really means is that your future is never guaranteed and that hindsight is 20/20.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by bduerst on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @09:04PM (#17914287)
I wouldn't call that a counter-anecdote, but more of the same.

Following the previous example, the iPhone pretty much dominated the smart phone market when it carved it out, but now iOS is at about 16% of the global marketshare.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by dstaley on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @09:21PM (#17914378)
Although the iPhone is at only 16% market share based on units sold, they're at 51% based on revenue. Apple is selling fewer devices at a higher price point. I anticipate that, for the next few years at least, Tesla and other EV makers will see a similar situation. Other manufacturers may sell more units, but they will find it difficult to compete with Tesla at their price point.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by nardi on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @02:03AM (#17915382)
And even more tellingly, 86% of the profit: https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/17/apple-grabs-86-of...

Who cares about market share?

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by _Tev on Friday September 07, 2018 @11:01AM (#17934760)
Regulators.

Apple's iPhone strategy allowed them several controversial moves, which might have caused massive fines if enacted with larger marketshare. E.g. restricting browser engines on iOS vs. simply bundling browser with Windows in 90's/early 00's (I don't remember / can't find now info / date of the ruling now).

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by bduerst on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:06PM (#17919898)
Right, I wasn't commenting about revenue or whether it was good/bad. Being the quality leader in a market means having high margins and low sales, but the comment above isn't 'counter-anecdotal' regarding marketshare, but more of the same.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by PuffinBlue on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:49PM (#17912219)
I'd say it's perhaps more like the DSLR/Mirrorless war that's raging right now.

Sony (Tesla) snuck in and have cornered the market on mirrorless (particularly full frame) over the last 5 years and now the big incumbents are launching their responses (Canon tomorrow actually).

Sony are definitely here to stay, they have enough lead time and mind share to back up their techincal offerings, I'd imagine Tesla will be too, even as the big players join the market.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by slobotron on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @11:34PM (#17914840)
Perhaps there is even an analogy with Sony delivering a lot of the sensors, and Tesla turning into a major battery supplier?
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by oblio on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @12:36PM (#17910333)
The funny thing is, had Tesla just said: we don't need to innovate upon lean manufacturing at the same time as we're innovating on electric cars, they'd be super safe now. Instead they had to automate everything, then rollback, and now are limping towards 10k cars per week.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by 0xCMP on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @12:46PM (#17910442)
I think this hubris is what is going to kill them (unless they , hopefully, wake-up). They couldn't admit that maybe other people made cars pretty well already and that they'd make that process even better over time.

I think they imagined themselves too much like Apple and it's attempts at automating it's production of the Mac. However, they forgot that by this point Apple/SJ had already figured out a lot of how to do assembly of computers quickly and automating a good process is much easier than figuring out a process that'll be automated.

Prior to this automation everything was done semi-manually for Model S and Model X, with huge delays, so automating whatever they had was not the next logical step. It was short sighted of them to go to automation first and it's frankly causing unneeded delays to delivering the Model 3s and volatility in the market.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by bduerst on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:22PM (#17910842)
The problem was they are trying to shift to large-scale car manufacturing, and car manufacturing is hard.

They basically have a tent erected in the Nevada desert, next to their stalled plant, where they are hand-assembling cars now, which is causing all kinds of quality issues [1].

Honestly, the buyout from VW would have solved this issue because VW knows how to build cars at scale [2]. The fact they shot this down is exactly that - hubris - and now they're burning through the last of their cash reserves on their way to bankruptcy.

[1] https://jalopnik.com/bumper-falls-off-brand-new-tesla-model-...

[2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/public-bravado-private-doubts-h...

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by nardi on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @02:07AM (#17915395)
The tent and plant are in Fremont, in the East Bay of the SF Bay Area. You’re thinking of the Gigafactory plant, which is where they make the batteries.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by konschubert on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:30PM (#17912065)
If you automate a shit process you get an automated shit-process. :)
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by deelowe on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @09:55PM (#17914529)
Actually, it's worse than that. Humans can hide mistakes, but as soon as you introduce automation, even the smallest of unaccounted for variance can stop everything.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by dao- on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @12:41PM (#17910384)
> The funny thing is, had Tesla just said: we don't need to innovate upon lean manufacturing

Or had they done it the right way like BMW did with the i3.

Source:

BMW i3 Teardown: An Electronics Masterpiece: http://www.techinsights.com/teardown.com/bmw-i3-teardown-ele...

Tearing Down the Model T of Our Time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDr4L6BzpP8

(both are about the same teardown by Munro & Associates)

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rcMgD2BwE72F on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:15PM (#17910775)
Thanks but the Model 3 teardown shows that Tesla knows how to build EV profitably: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAS-yjWj9DY

The i3 one might be technically interesting, but the car was never intended to be produced in volume so it's just a nice niche thing.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by twblalock on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:22PM (#17910841)
> The i3 one might be technically interesting, but the car was never intended to be produced in volume so it's just a nice niche thing.

It's a proof of concept, and a way to test the market before really committing to sustained production of electric cars. BMW could produce other electric cars in volume if they decide the market is viable.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by justin66 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:29PM (#17910920)
It's worth pointing out that even though the sales were disappointing to the point that BMW might be losing money on the car (I remember reading back in the day an estimate that they needed to sell 20k to be profitable), it was also their way of testing out a process for making inexpensive carbon fiber which is currently making money in other areas. They're the only auto manufacturer who has got that technology right now, and it's highly relevant in the luxury electric space.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by Theodores on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:56PM (#17911771)
The McLaren people make carbon fibre tubs for their road cars and they are opening a new factory for this in the UK 'due to Brexit' (the carbon fibre tubs were being made in Austria).

In the bigger scheme of things McLaren sell roughly as many cars as BMW sell i3s, i.e. a rounding error in global auto sales.

McLaren got there first in making carbon fibre tub a road going reality, for the super-rich, just as they did on the track in the world of F1 almost four decades ago.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by justin66 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @04:40PM (#17912579)
Nobody is arguing BMW invented the use of carbon fiber in an automobile. BMW's process is a big step forward in terms of cost (different chemistry, much faster production at lower temperature).

The i3 costs about as much as the brakes on a McLaren. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just an odd comparison to make.

If you're looking for a way to attenuate somebody's enthusiasm about BMW's amazing, relatively cheap carbon fiber process, it's that BMW is publicly downplaying its importance in favor of aluminum. That's either about production costs or about complicated problems of meeting passenger car safety standards with carbon fiber, depending on who you talk to...

> McLaren got there first in making carbon fibre tub a road going reality

The i3 is actually a carbon fiber body-on-frame design relying on aluminum. It's wild, but definitely not something McLaren would want to use for a 700-hp sports car.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by efraim on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @06:15PM (#17913321)
I think you underestimate how many i3 BMW have sold, they built almost 100 000 from 2013 to 2017[0]. McLaren on the other hand celebrated 15 000 cars total in may this year[1]. BMW also have a smaller budget for each tub so it's pretty impressive that they have a production car with a carbon fiber tub.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Marketing_and_sales [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/nargessbanks/2018/05/29/mclaren...

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rcMgD2BwE72F on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:26PM (#17911530)
Maybe, but why don't they have any big plan for EV now? Did the i3 lead them to conclude they can't ramp up with their current tech / production?

Meanwhile, every review about the Model 3 (LR and Performance) shows that the 3 series and the M3 don't appeal much. And the Model Y will be shown in a few months to compete head to head with the BMW X3 and X5 in a few months.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by justin66 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:16PM (#17910778)
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, since the i3 teardown is utterly fascinating.

A better comparison might be Toyota, though, when it comes to innovating on manufacturing. One of the things you'd really want to hear from Tesla is why a given part of the assembly line differs from established best practices, and that sort of explanation is something you never really hear from them. You do hear things like "oh, yeah, we just got rid of that stupid, fantastically expensive automatic conveyor belt system and replaced it with something simpler," and if you read the histories you know that Toyota and others retreated from systems similar to that in years past for similar reasons.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:35PM (#17912112)
I agree, knowing why things were done the way they were is far more interesting just knowing how they were done and the supposed advantages.

Maybe if Tesla fails (or succeeds wildly, has a IPO and many people cash out and take jobs at more established car makers) we'll get to hear the stories behind these sorts of decisions.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by hawaiianbrah on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @06:36PM (#17913464)
Uh, they’re already public. $TSLA
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by dexterdog on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @12:52PM (#17910510)
Limping towards 10? Are they even sustaining 5?
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by foepys on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @12:55PM (#17910546)
According to estimations in [1] they are currently at ~4,800/week for the Model 3.

1: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by dragontamer on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:10PM (#17910715)
Indeed. They hit 5k/week a while ago, but recent supply issues seems to have hampered their efforts.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1034153186070654976.html

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by FireBeyond on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:10PM (#17911382)
Right, for varying degrees of "hit" - numerous failed QC, 24/7, tent-factory, not overly sustainable.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by dexterdog on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:49PM (#17911147)
But wasn't that a book-cooking surge that they couldn't sustain?
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by greglindahl on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:57PM (#17911260)
You might want to look at that Bloomberg graph again -- 3 weeks over 5k, and now 2 just under.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by holenda on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:10PM (#17911396)
Limping? Which other manufacturers produce 10k electric cars a week? How many Chevy bolts are produced a week? 1000?
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by wilsonnb3 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:23PM (#17911501)
Less than that, I believe.

However, the issues that Tesla has with production aren't because their cars are electric. It's because they are bad at building cars compared to GM, Ford, Toyota, VW, etc.

Toyota could be making a lot of Model S's per week and Tesla would struggle to produce 10k Prius's a week.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by sergiosgc on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:40PM (#17911642)
> Toyota could be making a lot of Model S's per week (...)

Then, why don't they? It's a lucrative segment that creates lots of goodwill and free publicity.

They don't because they can't. Everyone assumes automakers will easily catch up to the lead that Tesla holds. I don't think it's all that easy.

Tesla has at least a six year lead on everyone else. The Model S came out in 2012, established brands are coming out with S competitors in 2018-2020. It will take time for them to scale production so that mid-range segments are profitable. Don't expect to see model 3 competitors in the next five years (no prototypes, so design hasn't even started).

The single exception is Renault-Nissan. They have the know-how and are already in the market in relevant numbers.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rohit2412 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @05:41PM (#17913054)
They don't have the appeal of a Tesla. Tesla fans seem to repeat the idea that car manufacturers don't want to make money. Luxury priced car with bare bones interior selling like hotcakes, why don't they make one?

Because the customers won't turn up, they aren't turning up for the bolt either. And say whatever about external looks, I don't believe that's why customers aren't turning up. It's the futuristic hype of Tesla and Elon musk, which is why he must harp on about autonomous cars which can go coast to coast in summon mode, or taking over manufacturing with alien dreadnaught. It is all a hype factory to keep up the high tech image, while the truth remains far from that image.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by wilsonnb3 on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @06:20PM (#17913356)
Because the market for electric cars is small.

Also, the Chevy Bolt is a model 3 competitor and you can buy one today.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by seszett on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:59PM (#17912294)
I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure Renault and Nissan produce more electric cars than Tesla. I think the Leaf alone accounts for more than Tesla, and then the Zoe probably also accounts for as many cars as the whole Tesla lineup.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by trocadero on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:03PM (#17911326)
>Tesla suck around and made electric cars cool and economically viable while the industry had it's backs turned

This isn't really accurate. Nissan and GM both had electric cars 20 years ago. And Tesla loses billions of dollars every year so they've hardly proven anything to be economically viable. The reason electric cars are coming now is because battery technology has gotten to the point of them being viable cars albeit with a slightly premium cost.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by w8vY7ER on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:12PM (#17911411)
Just out of curiosity, what have you seen from GM in their EV program to date that gives you that impression? I look at their efforts and see the absolute minimum and a complete lack of compelling vision or differentiating features.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by freehunter on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:49PM (#17911722)
I don't drive a GM or a Tesla or any electric car and I have no skin in the game, but it seems to me that GM's differentiating feature is that you can walk into a dealership and buy one right now, today, and drive it away the same day. I see far more Volts/Bolts than I do Teslas. The difference between the Bolt and the Model 3 is that you can buy the Bolt right now.

If anything it seems to be Ford and Chrysler doing the bare minimum. They offer EV versions of their cars, but they're not common and not pushed very heavily. At least GM has an all-electric model that stands on its own and isn't just an EV variant of another model (it's not "the Chevy Bolt EV", it's just "the Chevy Bolt" because there is no "Chevy Bolt ICE".) GM's electric offering was built from the ground up to be an electric car, and has won tons of awards for actually being a good car.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by xedeon on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:57PM (#17912275)
You can walk into a dealership and buy a Chevy Bolt right now because there is plenty of surplus inventory. People are just not buying them for many reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY

>GM's electric offering was built from the ground up to be an electric car, and has won tons of awards for actually being a good car.

The Bolt actually used many of the Chevy Sonic hardware/parts so I would hardly call it being built from the ground up. I mean, they look pretty much the same. It's like the Tesla roadster 1.0 which used Lotus parts.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by freehunter on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @08:40PM (#17914165)
>The Bolt actually used many of the Chevy Sonic hardware/parts so I would hardly call it being built from the ground up

According to GM, the Bolt shares no components of the Sonic.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-pho...

>all-new chassis called BEV II, which isn’t related to the Gamma platform on the Sonic hatchback. Despite the Bolt’s compact footprint, it’s longer than the Sonic by 5.0 inches, wider by 1.2 inches, higher by 3.1 inches, and has a 3.0-inch-longer wheelbase

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106137_chevy-bolt-ev-n...

>GM says the Chevy Bolt EV does not share any elements of those vehicles' small-car architecture, which was developed by its Korean small-car team.

>"There are no Bolt EV parts tied to the G2 architecture"

Sounds pretty "ground up" to me.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by J_cst on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @05:48PM (#17913108)
I've watched the video you just linked, and the review of the bolt is pretty good actually. Not sure why you linked it as if it was a bad report. Basically it says the bolt is a good car which lacks the "cool" factor due to its brand. Perhaps i misinterpreted your comment? Thanks (genuine question).
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by ryanwaggoner on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:35PM (#17910998)
The world's most valuable company indicates that there's plenty of profit to be had at the high end of the market while letting someone else make low-margin commodity versions.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by sonnyblarney on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:01PM (#17911818)
The industry did not have it's back turned. They were always making electric cars in one way or another.

Surely Tesla has accelerated demand a bit ... but I would view this as a very natural and obvious evolution of an industry, and when we take the big picture view it'll be seen as frankly a long shift anyhow, spanning many decades.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by neuronic on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @03:16PM (#17911961)
In fact the industry let Tesla change the market and they're all gearing up to capitalize on the growing demand for EVs.

The truth is that German car companies made incredible sales despite the Diesel scandal, more than Tesla can ever dream of. And now that EV demand is rapidly increasing, politics are changing and infrastructure is growing, they will begin to massively take advantage of the situation that Tesla created for them.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by riazrizvi on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:31PM (#17910956)
Is big better? Sometimes there is a new situation that only small adaptive organizations can capitalize on. The military analogy that I think of is how in WWII, a 60,000 strong German force in Panzers and near-obsolete Stuka dive-bombers routed a 3.5mm strong French and British force. The French and British didn't understand how to conduct modern maneuverability warfare, and some of the Germans did [1]. The auto industry might be similar. It's not just a question of which engine do we put in there. The auto industry as a whole is a political/economic engine built around complex machines that need maintenance, salespeople that can upsell because of product complexity, a product where supply-chain management skills are dominant because of product complexity...

When big new opportunities like this arise, it is often the small players that do well. If it wasn't the case, the technology industry would have been dominated by incumbents like IBM, instead of upstarts like Microsoft and Apple.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Nazi-War-Machine-Blitzkrieg/dp...

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by southerndrift on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:05PM (#17911346)
IBM had a monopoly problem. Allegedly they had a group of lawyers to check every new product and business to avoid being broken up like Standard Oil. If they wouldn't have worried about that for sure they wouldn't have used a supplier to write the operating system. The established auto industry isn't similarly restricted.
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by btian on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:22PM (#17911487)
Isn't GM still recovering from bankruptcy?

Where do they get money from

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by rconti on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:35PM (#17911590)
Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by jiveturkey on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:22PM (#17911491)
> Tesla quietly crept around and made electric cars cool and economically viable while the industry had it's backs turned.

a: not quietly, not at all b: the industry was wisely and patiently waiting. no need to spend capital in a serious way on the problem if someone else (tesla) is willing to take the chance. the industry will quite easily wipe the floor with tesla when market is ripe.

I still believe electric is going nowhere and if an alternative fuel surpasses petrol in my lifetime it will be hydrogen. we won't know for at least a decade so watch this space ...

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by _louisr_ on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:44PM (#17911684)
> the industry will quite easily wipe the floor with tesla when market is ripe.

It won't be easy.

1. the industry has a chain of dealers that will have to sell EVs alongside gas cars - how can they say that the gasoline cars are the cars of the past (Tesla's stance) when they have to sell gas cars, too? Thus the dealers will not sell EVs that strongly by principle. "Yeah, the other 90% of the cars on this lot are dead as history. You'll do well not to buy one of those." Traditional dealers will never say that to their customers. But Elon has been giving that message to Tesla customers for a decade and EV shoppers are listening.

2. Where are they getting their batteries from? Tesla already has the battery factory. Every other company is going to have to have some kind of battery deal with LG or Panasonic or whoever, and thus no vertical integration, like Tesla already has.

3. How is "the industry" going to sell cross-country travel? Buying a Tesla, you have access to a world-wide charging network that is super-quick to charge the cars, and incredibly expansive. "the industry" cannot just whip a charging network up, out of thin air.

4. Tesla has re-invented _the car_, not just electric vehicles. Look at the Model 3 dashboard. It stands out! "the industry" is still building EVs in their existing factories, with existing interiors and exteriors, that look and feel like gas cars but with an EV powertrain. There are literally tens of brands that look and feel similar to each other, and only one car brand - Tesla - that is actually unique. You think folks are not going to notice that? Tesla is not on the same planet, design and feel wise, as the other carmakers, which all exist in the same small, close-minded space. Customers are noticing that.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by lagadu on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @07:03PM (#17913628)
> Tesla is not on the same planet, design and feel wise, as the other carmakers

I completely agree but for a completely different reason: all of Tesla's models have a very long way to go to catch up to the established carmakers, hell look at the latest: the model 3. Even if we ignore the build quality issues that thing's lack of a dashboard is appalling usability-wise.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by sergiosgc on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:34PM (#17911587)
> I still believe electric is going nowhere and if an alternative fuel surpasses petrol in my lifetime it will be hydrogen. we won't know for at least a decade so watch this space ...

I don't know anyone who regretted buying an electric vehicle (hybrids, mostly). The general consensus in my social circle is that once you go electric you don't want to go back. It is, in terms of user experience, a much much better solution than internal combustion engines.

I hold the complete opposite view: The transportation future is electric.

Re:Mercedes Readies First Tesla Rival in $12B Attack by jiveturkey on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @04:43PM (#17912608)
waitasec. EV != hybrid. I've had hybrids forever now. They are fantastic, I mean if you conveniently ignore that the prius experience is really awful compared to a gas car, 95% of that due to the CVT but still 5% due to the rest of it. Much of the benefit of electric without the downside of range.

Now that CA has a new eco-industrial complex going (carpool sticker only valid for 3 years, for no good reason), there are more non-tesla performant hybrids available and they are really really good.

Everyone that believes electric is the future has a very, very limited view of how cars (and trucks) are actually used today. Sure, it may satisfy 50% of the market but that's not enough to displace gas vehicles. Whereas hydrogen can actually displace them.

I also believe the transportation future is electric, but not batteries.