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Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by eugeniub on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:55PM (#17804837)
I suspect that Apple sent them the iCloud backup contents, not the iPhone contents, and that this article reports this story poorly.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by amaccuish on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:49PM (#17805294)
I hope they start encrypting them properly at some point, on device, key derived from Apple ID password etc.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by dannyw on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:50PM (#17806174)
They can’t because it’s obvious they have a secret FISA order preventing them to. The recent iMessages in the Cloud shows this: messages are end to end encrypted in iCloud using a separate, unique key that is only stored on your devices... and this key is uploaded to your iCloud account if you have backup enabled. No choice.

This is after the original version, got pulled from the beta suddenly with no reason and no widely reported bugs.

The design of this irrational system only makes sense when a 3 letter agency saw it, and got FISA to compel Apple to key escrow.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by macspoofing on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:23PM (#17806350)
You don't actually have any proof for anything you just wrote ... and you're making very specific assertions with full confidence.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by nemothekid on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:45PM (#17806475)
>The design of this irrational system only makes sense when a 3 letter agency saw it, and got FISA to compel Apple to key escrow.

Or the more common reasoning: Apple wanted to provide a method for you to restore your new iPhone from an iCloud backup without treating your Apple ID password as an encryption key.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by pvg on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:38PM (#17806443)
it’s obvious they have a secret FISA order preventing them to.

How is that obvious? And how a court do this? What would be the legal basis?

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by jplayer01 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @02:22AM (#17807453)
National security. As it always is.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by pvg on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @02:26AM (#17807470)
That doesn't really mean anything.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by Osyris on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:24PM (#17805980)
Would that work? I'm not an iPhone user but I thought a big part of iCloud backups were for restoring a backup onto a new device.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by eugeniub on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @09:11PM (#17815391)
I think they could pull it off in a way that would result in few inaccessible backups. The decryption keys could be stored on your iCloud Keychain, so if you lose one iOS device, the backup can be decrypted with another iOS device you own. And maybe the encryption key could itself be derived from your device's passcode in some asymmetric way.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by pat2man on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:17PM (#17806316)
You can always backup using iTunes, which give you full encrypted backups.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by eugeniub on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @08:59PM (#17815312)
This will become an increasingly untenable solution in the future. Apple has been pushing iOS towards independence from PCs in the past couple of years, removing things such as installing apps through iTunes. Additional iOS and macOS updates could create new bugs in the iTunes/iOS sync process that Apple may not want to bother fixing anymore. They might remove iTunes backup entirely. And there are increasing numbers of iPhone users without Macs or PCs at all.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by thinkling on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:26PM (#17805590)
Law enforcement officials could, until recent iOS updates, unlock iPhones by brute-forcing passcodes with a device attached to the Lightning port. The phone was likely not updated to the latest iOS builds. So wouldn't Apple be able to do the same?
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by cc-d on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:33PM (#17806035)
What measures are in place to prevent the FBI from imaging a phone, and then brute forcing every possible pin combination? Would these measures be able to stand up against a team of reverse engineers, with near unlimited resources, which I assume the FBI would be able to find for the task?

Other avenues of gaining potentially useful data will be utilized as well. Does the FBI have access to data stored on Apple's cloud servers? What about the fingerprints of the suspect, or other methods of bioidentification?

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by thisacctforreal on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:36PM (#17806061)
The pin code gets entagled with a unique per-device key Apple calls the UID, the combination is what encrypts the data on-device.

Only the Secure Enclave has access to the UID, but only through silicon, it can't read the key bytes.

The Cellebrite rigs do use the Secure Enclave to brute force, but they're acheiving roughly 1s/guess, and the theoretical fastest is 80ms because the Secure Enclave uses PBKDF2 iterations tuned for that time.

If you have a long numeric passcode or an alphanumeric passphrase you can be confident your iPhone is secure when it's off.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by eugeniub on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:31PM (#17806400)
As thisacctforreal mentioned, both the PIN and the device UID are used to generate the actual encryption key. Even if someone were to get access to the UID, the amount of processing to generate an encryption key for each PIN possibility would be costly, so it may be the case that simply bruteforcing would take prohibitively long.

I know that on an iOS device itself, if passcode attempt limits didn't exist, it takes a whole 90 milliseconds to check each passcode. That's only 10 passcode attempts a second, and if the passcode is sufficiently long, it could take years.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by simcop2387 on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:35PM (#17806418)
It's trivially parallelized if you've got the data and the device uid extracted. Combined with more powerful cpus, it could easy end up 10k pins per second if you can try to decrypt it (or verify it) externally. Combine that with most people's lackluster pin selection and length you've probably got the ability to unlock a phone in a few minutes to hours.

EDIT: removed bad math

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by eugeniub on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @09:01PM (#17815327)
You'd have to have a very powerful CPU for a 1000-fold increase over a modern iPhone.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by simcop2387 on Thursday August 23, 2018 @07:26PM (#17831441)
Not as much as you might think, the iPhone is going to be doing a single decryption and checking action per attempt. If this takes 90 milliseconds because it's also going out to the secure chip to do the key derivation with the device uid so that the cpu and main ram never sees all the information to derive the full key on it's own then once you have both of those pieces of information (as was stated in this hypothetical) then you've eliminated the slow communication and slower processor involved. This could easily mean you can now do the derivation of the key in a much quicker fashion (I'd be surprised if it's not 10s to 100s of microseconds). But that's assuming that the bulk of the time isn't being spent on something like a modern key derivation function from the user's pin which is quite possibly a bad assumption (nobody knows these details outside Apple as far as I know). So let's say it's that, we've now got maybe 80ms of real cpu time on the iphone (not counting the communication to secure chip). This is still going to just be one core of the iphone's cpu doing this (no parallel KDFs that I'm aware of) and it's still trivially parallelizable. I don't know exact specs but lets say a modern intel cpu is going to be only 4x faster at this KDF because apple put in special cpu hardware to help accelerate it and other crypto operations. Now we multiply that by however many cores we can get (RAM isn't going to be an issue here even if it's a memory safe KDF, on a real computer or server we can always add more, terabytes if needed). So at this point we've got ~10-12 checks per second (80ms) times 4 for just the single core speedup, and then we can multiply that by the number of cores/threads we can throw at it, 256 wouldn't be too hard to get at (amd 2x epyc 64 core cpus). That gets us to 10240-12284 password checks per second. Even if that 4x is 2x or 1.5x it's still relatively easy to just throw some more servers at it since the actual check is so trivial to do in parallel. This would be very easy to be within a state actor or even a large corporation's budget if they had the need.

That's why Apple is so hard on making the secure chip they use for the encryption and holding the device uid. It's really the only thing that can keep that from being within a $10k-15k budget to break a bad passcode/pin. If they aren't using a modern KDF that has memory safety, branch safety, and other defenses in it then all the above goes out the window since you can now throw some really cheap GPUs and do it in parallel at a scale that's even more insane.

Have a look at some of the GPU benchmarks for John the Ripper

https://openwall.info/wiki/john/GPU

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by jlgaddis on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:51AM (#17807095)
> What measures are in place to prevent the FBI from imaging a phone, and then brute forcing every possible pin combination?

In short, physics.

It's not the PIN they'd have to brute force, but the encryption key... and that's where physics comes in.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by eli on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:53PM (#17805791)
The implication is that the police device uses a flaw unknown to Apple (lest they fix it). It is not normally supposed to be possible to brute force passcodes like that.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by kovrik on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:02PM (#17804912)
So iCloud Backup is not encrypted then?
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by Crontab on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:52PM (#17805335)
IIRC, only iCloud Keychain is encrypted in such a way that Apple's can't access it.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by eugeniub on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:37PM (#17806435)
There are a few more things end-to-end encrypted these days: Health app data, payment information, etc (see https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT202303).

However, I am really curious about whether or not using iCloud Backup negates these protections. For iMessages, Apple specifically says that it does: "If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages." In other words, if you use iCloud Backup, Apple specifically holds a key allowing them to decrypt your messages in your iCloud backup.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by auslander on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:45PM (#17806472)
100% correct. iCloud data is recoverable by apple without passcode, except keychain and phone backups, if i'm not mistaken.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by mygo on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:11PM (#17805491)
it’s encrypted but they have the keys. you can access iCloud data via web, so they definitely have the capabilities to decrypt it before sending it to your browser.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by kovrik on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:34PM (#17805645)
'Encrypted, but _they_ have the keys' means 'not encrypted'
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by chasontherobot on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:35PM (#17806053)
Does the fact that my landlord has a copy of my front door key mean that my locked door is "not locked"?
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by glibgil on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:49PM (#17806166)
> Does the fact that my landlord has a copy of my front door key mean that my locked door is "not locked"?

Yes, you can never be sure that your landlord has not let other people into your house. Your landlord could let the police into your house

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by vageli on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:31PM (#17806396)
What is your definition of "locked", then?
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by glibgil on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @01:35AM (#17807256)
> What is your definition of "locked", then?

"Did you lock the house?"

"Yes"

"Good because I left secrets on the kitchen table"

"Oh, the landlord has a key. But it's locked"

"Um, ok. It's sort of locked. It's locked, but other people can get in. All I really care about is my secrets so I guess I'll just go back and get them and find someplace else to leave them that's more 'locked'"

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by jplayer01 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @02:26AM (#17807473)
This is ridiculous. A door is either locked or it isn't. The word makes no claim about how secure the lock is. No matter how you try to twist this topic to suit your views.

In the same way a file can be encrypted, yet be insecure because somebody untrustworthy has the key to decrypt it. Doesn't change the fact that on a technical level, it's encrypted.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by glibgil on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:57PM (#17811376)
What's ridiculous is having a semantic argument when you know people's intent. Yes, someone said "locked" and someone said "encrypted", but what they meant was "secure". I think we all get their meaning. They are saying, what good is this if it is not secure? I mean, what good is it? It'll keep your significant other out, but not Apple employees and not the police? Is that the technical-level benefit?
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by eugeniub on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @09:04PM (#17815339)
By that definition, a door can't be said to be locked if absolutely _no one_ has the key, because you can just smash your way in anyway.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by glibgil on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @04:55PM (#17822107)
It's not a definition, it's pointing out that someone was being pedantic about the meaning of "locked" and "encrypted" when Apple employees can seemingly read your encrypted iCloud date. They wanted to be "technical", but nobody was talking about technicalities. They were talking about security. iCloud data seems to be locked, encrypted and insecure! One of those words is not like the other
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by opless on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:53PM (#17806185)
Depends how willing the landlord is to open your front door upon request.

And how secure your landlord stores your front door key.

So if your landlord is careless and/or willing to open your door to people requesting them to do so, you can assume that your landlord IS indeed an adversary.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by thatjsguy on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @07:41AM (#17808724)
No? It just means they can access it. Encryption turns plaintext into ciphertext; it says nothing about the security thereof. I can ROT13 encrypt a message. Just because you can easily use cryptanalysis and read my message doesn’t make it any less encrypted.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by tinus_hn on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @04:54PM (#17813723)
You can’t access the contents of iCloud backups via the web.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by travbrack on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:13PM (#17804982)
If it is, Apple has the key.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by shawnz on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:28PM (#17805108)
They seem to imply otherwise on this page:

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT202303

EDIT: On a second reading it looks like there's a difference between the "on server" encrypted data and the "end to end" encrypted data. Backups are covered under the former but not the latter. Shame.

Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by rickycook on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:30PM (#17805130)
...or the article is misleading
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by shawnz on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:32PM (#17805157)
I agree. I am just trying to provide evidence of Apple being misleading about this issue.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by pvg on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:54PM (#17805349)
It doesn't seem misleading at all, though. The entire support article is about what kind of data they can and cannot access.
Re:Nelson woman delighted after Apple unlocks iPhone of late... by dmix on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:42PM (#17805703)
It's hard to communicate this stuff TBH

The fact people don't appreciate what Snowden leaked and infosec in general is as much a result of that as it is negligence or humans being 'bad'.