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Re:Don’t Do This in Production by wpietri on Sunday August 19, 2018 @12:13PM (#17794825)
I want to underline this bit:

> they hired a team of developers without having a technical person on staff to vet them

For any non-technical entrepreneurs reading this: please don't do this. If you aren't competent to hire developers, please borrow or rent a few trusted technical experts and use them as a hiring committee. Otherwise you are less likely to hire the best technologist, and more likely to get the most glib and appealing technologist.

Over the years I have met far too many smooth-talking consultants and would-be employees. And I've seen them cause enormous garbage fires when managers hire beyond their ability to evaluate. The size of these garbage fires are a direct result of what got them hired: if someone is good at telling managers what they want to hear, they can go a very long time saying, "Yup, we're building it and it will be great! Just you wait and see!"

And then, no matter who you hire, demand a "ship early and often" schedule. Ship to internal users. Ship to alpha users. Ship to external testers. Heck, ship to just person for just one narrow use case. The earlier you can start seeing real-world success or failure, the earlier you can course correct.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by ChuckMcM on Sunday August 19, 2018 @01:58PM (#17795390)
I was going to call out this quote : If you read this far hoping for an answer, then I’m sorry: I don’t have a simple one. This is a difficult problem to solve.

And yet there is an answer, it is hire an experienced engineer. And the author glosses over the problem by not realizing they "solved" the problem by hiring him.

It is the bad calculus where one "experienced" engineer is going to cost you maybe $150K - $200K and yet you could get anywhere from 3 to 10 junior engineers for that depending on how far out you go.

It would be awesome of there were some sort of certification for "experience" sort of equivalent to the guild master status, it isn't an education thing it is a "oh yeah I've seen that before, lets not do that here's why" kind of thing.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by crispyambulance on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:45PM (#17795604)
Projects fail for all kinds of reasons. Usually many reasons at the same time.

While I am sure that _some_ fail because of the abject inexperience of the staff running them, this is hardly ever the complete story. Moreover, projects do fail even with a fully experienced, fully vetted staff running the show.

The article just seems like a consultant marketing his acumen. There's nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind, he dropped in over a weekend and spent a few hours detailing problems that needed fixing and the staff subsequently made corrections and released on time.

It could easily go the other way too. The "inexperienced" team could have instead brought in another seasoned consultant who, after a few hours, got the wrong idea and led them down the wrong path precipitating an even larger slippage of ship date. THAT HAPPENS TOO and I suspect it is even more common.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by HeavyStorm on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:23PM (#17803606)
I don't really agree. Sure, many projects fail for reasons other than developer experience but in many years of many more projects, developer skill was the most frequent reason.

Of course, that's probably more true of my environment (third world country, enterprise software) than others.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by anyzen on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:57AM (#17798961)
> Moreover, projects do fail even with a fully experienced, fully vetted staff running the show.

Sure - but in that case they usually don't fail because of technical decisions (which is what OP was talking about). There are however many other ways a project can fail (bad management mostly).

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by yen223 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:08PM (#17795443)
If you aren't technical yourself, how do you separate an experienced engineer from one who, well, isn't? This was the fundamental problem that the company failed to solve, and frankly I don't think there's any easy solution around it.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by Spooky23 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @11:35PM (#17797554)
Use referrals.

Ultimately, if you cannot identify critical staff and don’t know anyone who can, you’re screwed anyway.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by wpietri on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @11:18AM (#17810347)
Exactly. Somebody running a company can't be an expert in everything. But they can be a good judge of people and have a wide enough network that they can get recommendations from people they trust.

A few of those trusted technologists will make a fine hiring/oversight committee. You won't need a ton of their time, so you can pay very generously for the insurance they provide.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by memset on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:16PM (#17795476)
Agree with this. Same applies to any expert: how do you identify an experienced marketer? Or accountant?
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by jedharris on Sunday August 19, 2018 @07:17PM (#17796763)
To hire someone with expertise to solve a problem in a domain where you aren't an expert: You find people who claim to understand the domain, and then discuss the problem with them in depth. Your goal is not to evaluate them in general but to understand how they analyze the problem and how they'd deal with it.

You may have to hire them as consultants. You have to dedicate a day or more to discussion with each of them -- maybe considerably more if your problem is complex. You have to reveal information about your plans and/or the condition of your systems that may make you anxious or embarrassed.

After you've gone over the problem separately with five or ten putative experts, you will have a pretty good idea which of them understand it (if any), and you will also know how to ask much better questions going forward.

If necessary repeat this process, using your better understanding to find better experts and gain a better map of the territory.

Once you can rank expertise in your domain reliably, you might hire one (or more) of the known experts, but the best ones will be hardest to hire. Or you may use your new meta-expertise in the domain to look for more junior hires who have an unusually good grasp of your issues. Also, you may be able to get the best of your experts to act as advisors.

This takes a lot of time and may cost some money depending on the domain. But not doing it will take more time and cost more money in the medium to long term (and even in the short term sometimes).

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by hyperpallium on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:27PM (#17797183)
AKA become expert.

I wonder if the people who become fantastically successful simply have the ability to evaluate expertise, without having any of it. i.e. by "reading" people, in some sense.

This relies on the "expert"'s own evaluation of their expertise, which mightn't be accurate, because of Dunning–Kruger, or conversely, self-doubt. So, one would need to "read" those too.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by jedharris on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @10:06AM (#17809645)
You definitely can't trust people's self-evaluation either way. Lots of really skilled people are self-critical. "Reading people" of course helps but it is nowhere near enough.

But you don't have to become an expert. If I hire a plumber or carpenter, I cannot do what they can. But with enough work I can understand which plumbers or carpenters will do a good job.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by yen223 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @03:06PM (#17795683)
... or climate change scientist? Or economist? Or president?

The problem of separating experts vs non-experts might be the single biggest problem society faces right now.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by gameswithgo on Sunday August 19, 2018 @03:16PM (#17795720)
assuming you have a generally good education and brain to start with, a lot of hard work can usually accomplish it.

Think Elon Musk learning about rockets, back before he lost his mind.

I did it once for climate change, took a couple months, some math. Got there though.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by chmhsm on Sunday August 19, 2018 @06:31PM (#17796543)
Before he lost his mind? You mean the recent interview or before that?
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by hyperpallium on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:23PM (#17797166)
This is the problem that credentials supposedly solve - degrees, certifications, professional body membership etc.

You don't realize the difficulty of the problem until you must hire someone outside your own areas of expertise.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by mathattack on Sunday August 19, 2018 @07:30PM (#17796805)
Depends on the magnitude of the problem to be solved.

Small problem: Ask friends for someone they have worked with on a similar problem.

Large problem (building an org): Ask 5 VCs/CEOs/VIPs for intros to the best person they know in that role, under the explicit direction of “learning what good looks like.” Interview all 5 with open ended questions. Ask each for one for one more contact. Eventually you will learn to pattern match, and one of the folks you like will volunteer themselves or a friend, and you will know how to interview.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by kuwze on Monday August 20, 2018 @12:01PM (#17801026)
I remember somebody on this forum saying the best way to judge someone's technical prowess is to give a simple explanation of a complicated part of their field. If you can't summarize your knowledge you don't know what you are talking about.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by wpietri on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @11:19AM (#17810363)
Unfortunately, a non-expert can't tell the difference between a good simple explanation and glib, confident ignorance. So I think that's a good test for expertise, but it's not one that a non-expert can fully judge.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by acjohnson55 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:37PM (#17797224)
References and portfolio, at the end of the day.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by robocat on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:34AM (#17799132)
The orange juice test is one person's answer:

https://www.intercom.com/blog/the-orange-juice-test/

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by scarface74 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:07PM (#17796922)
Hire a recruiting company. There are recruiting companies that have a staff of full time consultants that will bring in a whole development team and manage the product.

At some point, you want to bring that knowledge in house, the recruiting company will then help you hire people or let you convert some of thier contractors (not thier full time people) to fulltime.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by dlhavema on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:21PM (#17796973)
We have a lot of recruiters sending us "senior full stack engineers" that dont knoe the language they are most confident in and end up being dev-ops engineers who want to get into coding. A lot of recruiting firms dont know how to to get candidates either
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by scarface74 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:30PM (#17797004)
I am not referring to recruiting companies that just send developers to a company. I am referring to recruiting companies that have full time staffed developers and project managers that manage the project for you in the beginning and then slowly help you build up your own staff.

Some will have a combination of onsite developers, “rural source” developers who are in a cheaper part of the US, contractors and outsourced developers but they manage the entire project.

I was offered such a position - the pay is above market but it required too much travel for me now.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by marcinzm on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:01PM (#17797101)
Now how do you separate out a recruitment company who has solid experience engineers on board from one that doesn't but says they do? I've seen many of the latter and many founders who thought they were getting the former in the deal.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by scarface74 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:39PM (#17797230)
If you are starting a company, I would hope that you at least know what your requirements are and you could sit down with the project managers to hash out acceptance criteria and deliverables.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by eropple on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:05AM (#17797835)
And then you find that the acceptance criteria aren't met, the deliverables don't work, and your ship date is hosed. What then?
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by scarface74 on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:01AM (#17798535)
How is that a different risk than every other project that ever existed - even those led by internal teams?
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by marcinzm on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:35AM (#17799391)
Preferably for an internal project you have a trusted delegation chain that would catch the issue early on.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by scarface74 on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:01AM (#17799540)
Two scenarios:

Scenario #1 - you are a founder with a great idea, you hire a good software dev lead who then fills out the department. You work with the Dev lead to hash out your plan They organize it and after certain checkpoints, the dev team demos progress. As the founder, you are at the top of the chain making sure that there is a product market fit, and ensuring things are going as planned from a high level.

Scenario #2. You contract with a consulting company. Your project is led by a dev lead/project manager paid by the consulting company and they fill out the team using thier own staff.

They organize the team and after certain checkpoints, the dev team demos progress. As the founder, you are at the top of the chain making sure that there is a product market fit, and ensuring things are going as planned from a high level.

There is no difference in the delegation chain or the risks involved.

The main difference is that you are writing one check to the consulting company and they are paying the contributors and in the other case, you are paying employees individually.

The usual retort is that employees have more loyalty and ownership in the company. No they don’t. The employees at your company, if they are smart, have one eye toward thier next job just like the consultanting company has one eye toward thier next contract.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by HeavyStorm on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:32PM (#17803685)
The goal of the recruiting company is to get candidates hired. That may or may not conflict with the ultimate goal of the client doing the hiring, which is to get the job done.

I have this problem internally at my company. Recruiting have crazy goals (hire 30 developers per month) so they push us to accept whatever they can get.

Sure, we can keep refusing the candidates but at some point you have to accept someone to get the job done. Even if you need to double check everything they do.

The reasons for that are too complex for a small post but believe me, there are many.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by scarface74 on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:01PM (#17804405)
The post you are replying to said:

Hire a recruiting company. There are recruiting companies that have a staff of full time consultants that will bring in a whole development team and manage the product.

You are replying to a scenario that is just the opposite of my suggestion. The client company is not hiring developers at all. They are contracting out with the consulting company to manage the entire project. The founder is working with a project manager who is employed with the consulting company to develop a product. The recruiting company is doing all of the project management, development, QA, etc. The founder is hopefully coming up with acceptance criteria for the product since it was his idea.

After the project gets off the ground, then the recruiting/consulting company works with the client to develop in house expertise starting with finding a dev manager who hopefully understands the business and the technical and the dev manager works with recruiters to staff up.

You’re not hiring anyone at first. You’re basically outsourcing the entire development project to an outside agency. If you are a non technical founder, this may be the best way to go.

There is a local recruiting/consulting company that has been trying to get me to come work for them directly full time in the role of team lead, I just can’t do the travel right now.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by contravariant on Sunday August 19, 2018 @05:33PM (#17796304)
I guess the assumption is that anyone or at least an inexperienced engineer would be able to point out an experienced engineer, while only experienced engineers are any good at picking less experienced engineers.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by tormeh on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:06AM (#17799003)
Deloitte has pretty good technical interviews. I'm sure they can provide you interviews as a service. Probably not going to be cheap, though.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by megaremote on Sunday August 19, 2018 @07:13PM (#17796747)
Surely there is a big clue in how long they have been working for, how many projects they have done, what their roles were.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by itronitron on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:26PM (#17796991)
Based on my experience interviewing over the past several years, the companies that have a 'production' system seem to only value experience with their tech stack.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by pm90 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:20PM (#17797154)
That’s because they have set something up and ironed out all the bugs so it will take some convincing to move them to a different stack.

There’s no easy way around it. In fact I’ve seen some teams too eager to rip up existing production workflows every time some new technology becomes popular and that’s not productive either.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by itronitron on Sunday August 19, 2018 @11:29PM (#17797538)
I'm not saying that they should change their stack, I'm saying that they should consider that someone having extensive experience with related technologies probably knows the domain well and can come up to speed quickly on the team's shit.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by gameswithgo on Sunday August 19, 2018 @03:12PM (#17795708)
That is sort of a tautology solution. Hire someone who can solve the problem and you won't have the problem.

But how do you know when you have done that? Experience alone doesn't necessarily mean they can solve your problem.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by freedomben on Sunday August 19, 2018 @10:26PM (#17797345)
Right, I think that's being missed in this thread.

Experience alone doesn't necessarily mean they can solve the problem and ship/write good code. I've worked with plenty of "senior" engineers that have 20+ years experience yet have never dealt with any serious issues. These usually work at companies where a small team of "ninjas" handles those sorts of things, and the run of the mill Dilbert coder shows up and does his thing. This is not a knock on those people. They are important in their own way, truly. But I would not want them to be the responsible party for steering the ship in a new app.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by marcinzm on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:11PM (#17797128)
Define experienced engineer. I've seen many on-paper experienced engineers who would be worse than a junior engineer on a project.

>oh yeah I've seen that before, lets not do that here's why

Which can actually be a pretty bad way of going about it imho if you only use your own direct experiences for that. Just like science, basing your decisions on a limited number of anecdotes is problematic because small biased subsets are not representative of the whole.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by pm90 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:16PM (#17797138)
You have to make a decision based on something. Experience isn’t a bad heuristic if evaluated correctly: this is why in most serious technical interviews today, you will often get asked about your past experiences.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by marcinzm on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:33AM (#17799381)
>You have to make a decision based on something.

And like science you can base it on the collective experience versus your personal experience. Preferably from rigorous studies but we mostly lack those in CS. So hopefully you're reading books, blog posts, studies, conference presentations, discussing with colleagues, etc.

>this is why in most serious technical interviews today, you will often get asked about your past experiences.

Interestingly the top companies seem to be focusing a lot less on experience and a lot more on problem solving/system design/etc.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by pm90 on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:22PM (#17803589)
You bring up a good point. I do think interviewing for developers is not a field that has been studied using the scientific method, which is why we seem to have so many rules of thumbs, cargo cult traditions etc. rather than experiment-backed results. I think a few companies do study this as a science (e.g. Google) but most others are either unwilling or don't have enough resources (or some mix of the 2) to do the same.

> Interestingly the top companies seem to be focusing a lot less on experience and a lot more on problem solving/system design/etc.

As long as we're making conjectures: this is likely because a lot of them have tools and processes that are very different from what you see "in the wild". e.g. working at Google means you can leverage all their deployment infrastructure, something you likely didn't have access to outside (this is somewhat changing with k8s and cloud services).

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by majormajor on Sunday August 19, 2018 @04:49PM (#17796102)
Very few developers even trust themselves to vet the sorts of things this post is talking about. So our current level of in-industry interview training is going to make that a crapshoot.

The general reason given for non-representative algorithmic whiteboard coding problems is "you can't trust anybody's experience." But those questions are themselves not resulting in production-ready code, so you're flying blind on "can figure out a quick way to solve a problem" vs "knows what to do to turn a quick solution into something that will last."

And then there's a time-based calculation you have to make: hire fast and hope they'll learn on the fly, or slow down and delay until you find people you hope won't have to. You're hoping either way, after all. :)

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by jcadam on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:59AM (#17798972)
> hire an experienced engineer.

But "experienced" and "cultural fit" are mutually exclusive for most startups.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by MrEfficiency on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:12AM (#17799030)
Experienced will tell you the refuse to release without X Y and Z because if B happens your server will crash.

Junior wont even know the problem and hack it together.

But hey, thats what reddit /r/askprogramming is for... right?

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by duxup on Sunday August 19, 2018 @03:21PM (#17795743)
As an inexperienced developer I'd just like to add that if you're going to have inexperienced developers.... JUST hiring an experienced developer is not an automatic solution.

You need someone who can bring other developers along, teach with purpose, and etc. Experience developing alone does NOT automatically provide that.

There are experienced developers who are ok, some are amazing, and some who for all their skills straight up can't lead / help other developers for any number of reasons. For those who can't / don't want to that doesn't make them bad or anything, just not suited for helping others.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by ntnn on Sunday August 19, 2018 @06:01PM (#17796407)
> You need someone who can bring other developers along, teach with purpose, and etc. Experience developing alone does NOT automatically provide that.

And the bloke needs time to train. If the developer is getting chased from dumpster to forest fire and back he won't be able to pass on knowledge and best practices.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by dlhavema on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:28PM (#17796997)
I'm a good example of that. I've been in software for about 12 years now and am only just getting started in the mentoring/training type roles. And that's only because I super had to...

How do you deal with someone who gets to a problem and cant figure it out and then just drops it without telling anyone or saying anything, and you dont figure it out for days or weeks?

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by pm90 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:25PM (#17797175)
You usually set up a system where you have constant feedback, like daily stand ups, weekly ( or bi-weekly) sprints etc. before closing out an issue have the devs demo the feature so it’s not based purely on word of mouth.

Personally: I would advice getting lunch with them and getting to know them better. Set up a 1:1 if lunch isn’t possible. Everyone likes honest feedback, or at least a chance to talk about their difficulties in getting tasks done.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by prawks on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:00PM (#17797089)
> you dont figure it out for days or weeks?

If it was important and estimates on how long it will take are overrun, then don't wait to follow up on it and find out how it's going.

Unless the problem is more nuanced like a small component of a larger body of work? Like knowingly leaving flaws in an implementation, or something.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by wpietri on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @08:28PM (#17823512)
This sounds too simple, but you just don't let people go days without checking in.

I wrote about once simple process here: http://williampietri.com/writing/2014/simple-planning-for-st...

The key points to keep things on the rails: 1) it's a work queue for the whole team, and the whole team is responsible for every work item, 2) the units of work are small, so they should generally be finished in a day or two, and 3) you to quick daily checkins to make sure work is moving along.

If you add pair programming with frequent pair rotation (e.g., 2-3x/day) then you make it impossible for a person to get stuck for long periods. Even if two people are stuck for a couple of hours, when pair rotation happens then the pair can ask somebody with specific experience to tag in.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by itronitron on Sunday August 19, 2018 @11:41PM (#17797567)
You'll want to find out what they are stuck on and help or show them how to remove the initial impediment (they might be waiting on someone else or having trouble breaking down the problem into smaller workable chunks.)
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by nostrebored on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:37AM (#17798470)
Exactly. Not all technical mentoring is about software engineering; many of the problems junior employees face are regarding soft skills that they need to get their job done. While you might understand what to do if you're blocked internally, or if you're waiting on third party software, or if you get feedback that you don't understand on a code review, these are - new - problems to a lot of people getting started in the workplace, that many try and fail to solve on their own.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by duxup on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:01PM (#17797100)
That sounds like a manager type situation if you have devs just not doing things and not telling anyone, rather than mentoring.... that's pretty terrible.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by megaremote on Sunday August 19, 2018 @07:14PM (#17796752)
> You need someone who can bring other developers along, teach with purpose, and etc. Experience developing alone does NOT automatically provide that.

Not to solve this problem they don't.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by brianpan on Sunday August 19, 2018 @01:32PM (#17795252)
And how do you find the trusted technical experts? By using your trusted technical expert expert?
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by krab on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:00PM (#17795407)
In my experience, it's quite common to have longer standing connections or friendships with people who won't be willing to join a particular startup but who might help with specific issues.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by hyperpape on Sunday August 19, 2018 @01:47PM (#17795329)
By not going in to a business that requires development unless you are one, or know one.

I wouldn't assume I could start a restaurant or run a medical practice, why do so many people with no technical background assume that they can start a business centering around software?

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by jasonlotito on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:05PM (#17795425)
Because lots of people that haven't run a restaurant have successfully started a restaurant, and people who were in the restaurant business started a restaurant, but failed to keep it going.

History is littered with people who ignored your rule here and have been successful.

I guess we can flip that around: why do so many people with no business background assume that they can start a business?

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by jaredklewis on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:54PM (#17795638)
First of all, if you have never worked in a restaurant in any capacity (chef, waiter, manager, host, whatever), I would say the chances of starting a successful restaurant are much, much lower than someone with some experience. And it’s easy to understand why, as even a short one year stint in a well run restaurant is probably enough to pick up industry best practices (that are centuries in the making) and make a handful of connections.

If you want to start a company which makes software, actually knowing about software is going to do wonders for your chances of success.

As for your flipped question, “business” is not a background. Other than perhaps Math, English, and common sense, there is no knowledge that is so abstract that it can be usefully applied to any kind of business.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by hyperpape on Sunday August 19, 2018 @03:03PM (#17795673)
Restaurants have an infamously high failure rate and low margins, so I wouldn't use that example if I was arguing for your position.

Unlike other people responding, I agree that people without a business background struggle when starting a business. There are a lot of developers who start a business and have no clue about pricing or marketing or sales.[0] They have a high failure rate.

If you know one side, you may succeed if you're a quick learner and/or your core idea is good enough, but you're at a disadvantage compared to an individual or team with knowledge of tech and business.

[0] Note that these are all things a developer could learn without a business degree, just like I learned to program without a CS degree.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by wpietri on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @08:30PM (#17823523)
> Because lots of people that haven't run a restaurant have successfully started a restaurant

[citation needed]

Do you have some examples? And do you have data supporting "lots"? Because I find that highly implausible.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by Memosyne on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:20PM (#17795498)
I believe you've made a false equivalence when comparing software development to the management of a restaurant. Most people have basic knowledge of food preparation and distribution. They do not, however, have an understanding of the software development cycle.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by Moru on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:40PM (#17795577)
There are a big difference between having limited knowledge of food preparation and actually running a restaurant without giving your customers food poisoning. The comparison is sound. Maybe even perfect, proven by your comment. Know enough to be humble or enough to be dangerous? How long can I keep that rice pudding on the buffé table before I have to throw it away? How do you make sure the food is actually kept fresh in the cooler overnight? The inspection protocolls makes for interesting reading. Especially for new restaurants.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by Memosyne on Sunday August 19, 2018 @04:24PM (#17795984)
Prior to the FSMA (Food Safety Modernization Act) [1] there used to be very little regulation in terms of food safety in the US. Since the comment was suggesting that throughout history people have successfully opened restaurants without any related experience, I find it relevant to note that selling food was not always so difficult: if someone had the wealth, they could hire some chefs and wait for customers.

Nowadays, though, there are dozens of different dynamics involved in the management of restaurants. As such, it is very difficult for someone who has both a culinary and business background to open a successful food shop. To believe that someone who does not possess such an expertise could do well in this arena is foolish.

Managing restaurants has always been difficult, but it is becoming harder with each passing year. Nobody in their right mind would recommend a complete amateur to open one of these shops given the current economy. They would need some sort of experience in the food industry before even attempting the feat.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FDA_Food_Safety_Modernization_...

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by stickfigure on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:35PM (#17795559)
why do so many people with no business background assume that they can start a business?

Because starting a business, in and of itself, is trivial. Children do it with lemonade stands. It's "the thing that the business does" that is hard.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by unscaled on Sunday August 19, 2018 @07:42PM (#17796849)
This is not a chicken and egg problem. At least not for large organizations. If you read this line: The department that built the product had recently come into existence, and they hired a team of developers without having a technical person on staff to vet them.

This is clearly a management failure. If you start a new department you should at least try to seed it with experienced employees from other parts of your company, even if they're on a loan.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by cecilpl2 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @06:20PM (#17796497)
Talk to the most technical person you know. Ask them for an intro to people they would most want to work with.

Repeat this process several times until you have someone who will interview for you.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by richardun on Sunday August 19, 2018 @01:48PM (#17795332)
I get joke, but possibly to others wondering... Everyone knows someone more technical, they can keep asking. Also, a lot of entrepreneurs know other entrepreneurs that might help with this. Either way, they can find technical websites to help, founderdating.com, etc.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by Vinnl on Monday August 20, 2018 @02:24AM (#17798061)
I know people who are considered technical by shared non-technical friends - and I think they even are, to some extent. Still, some of those are still very inexperienced and I certainly wouldn't trust them to be able to properly vet new developers yet on their own.

I think to some extent, it's a matter of being lucky picking the right person to vet, since you can't vet that person yourself.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by crispyambulance on Sunday August 19, 2018 @02:53PM (#17795633)
By trial and error. Seriously.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by FollowSteph3 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @04:00PM (#17795894)
From a higher level maybe don’t start a software company. Just because I have an idea say on how to make a better oven I should not open one until I at least have some industry experience and knowledge first. In other words if your whole business model depends on a specific set of skills then you should at least have some knowledge or expert on your team as a starting point. If you start a plumbing business you don’t just open it up with zero plumbers on staff and no experience in plumbing. But for some reason this is fairly common in software...
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by remoteorbust on Sunday August 19, 2018 @06:58PM (#17796681)
I once worked at a company with no product management experience. Because of this they hired a string of toxic Steve Jobs wannabees because they simply didn't know what they didn't know.

They lacked experience in many areas. Ironically they ended up firing their only experienced executive (CTO). It's too bad, they had passionate engineers who could have built some amazing things (as evidenced imo by the amazing things they later built for Netflix/Google/Facebook/Amazon/etc) but they were stuck at a company that sort of wanted to be a tech company but didn't want any of those annoying "IT people" involved in decisions.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by jedharris on Sunday August 19, 2018 @07:21PM (#17796774)
Your last phrase is key: They really didn't want the experts, they just wanted the results. No one can hire good people if they think they already know better. Good people got good by picking good learning situations, and avoiding tarpits.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by gshulegaard on Sunday August 19, 2018 @01:46PM (#17795324)
I couldn’t agree more. I just wanted to also add that this is something that you have to always keep in mind for every growing org, not just new ones. I’ve seen situations where Management has decided to pursue new product directions by hiring a whole new team, but without looping in their existing tech teams. It unfortunately had the same expected result.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by JimDabell on Sunday August 19, 2018 @05:19PM (#17796229)
I doubt that strategy would have been of interest to this organisation, due to this part:

> they had never released a production application before.

It's entirely understandable to end up with a poor-performing team if you start out without any in-house technical knowledge. But how did they end up with a team comprised entirely of people without any experience at all? That to me indicates that, rather than being unable to identify good candidates, they intentionally tried to cut corners. Telling an organisation like this how to identify better candidates isn't going to make a blind bit of difference because they aren't interested in better, they are interested in cheaper.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by rahimnathwani on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:08PM (#17796927)
"they aren't interested in better, they are interested in cheaper"

Or maybe they suck at sourcing candidates, but don't know it. So they hired the top 1% of their candidate pool, without knowing what good looks like.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by JimDabell on Monday August 20, 2018 @02:54AM (#17798153)
Even people with zero technical knowledge aren't likely to hire a team of people with zero experience accidentally.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by BurningFrog on Sunday August 19, 2018 @04:47PM (#17796095)
Yeah, there is some "law" here that I can't quite formulate about how developers can't recognize skills above their own level.

This makes it impossible for someone with skill N to hire people with skill N+1, other than by dumb luck.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by jedharris on Sunday August 19, 2018 @07:26PM (#17796794)
I think people can recognize those at level N+1, but not (reliably) level N+2 and beyond. In fact they are likely to think that people much above level N+1 are "crazy".

Current political discourse contains lots of examples of people at level N+1 (or emulating that) convincing lots of people at level N that all the people at level N+k, k>1 are dumb, crazy or evil.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by YinglingLight on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:35PM (#17801942)
Political discourse has very little to do with IQ and very much to do with Persuasion and hallucination bubbles.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by jedharris on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @01:21PM (#17811667)
Yes but... the level you are at is not just or mainly a function of IQ. I cannot evaluate the quality of a structural engineer who is much more skilled than me. Their cool new structural ideas could be brilliant or just terrible; I can't tell.

A key issue here is how one responds to not knowing how good those ideas are. Dangerous responses: "I can't tell so they must be crazy" or "I can't tell so they must be brilliant." Accepting that one doesn't know mitigates the risk.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by BurningFrog on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:23PM (#17796979)
I like this quite a lot!
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by scarface74 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:13PM (#17796947)
At every level of development when I really started getting serious about my career 10 years ago. I knew what I needed to know to get to the next level. That’s how I chose companies to work for. It would be really easy to tell if someone had more experience in something I had a passing knowledge about.

10 years later, I still know what I need to learn to get to the next level.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by mmt on Sunday August 19, 2018 @05:45PM (#17796350)
> there is some "law" here that I can't quite formulate about how developers can't recognize skills above their own level.

Perhaps you're trying to reformulate/restate the "Blub paradox" [1]?

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by Aeolun on Sunday August 19, 2018 @06:55PM (#17796665)
I don’t know. Is that really a law? I feel like I’m relatively confidently able to pick out people above and below my level by now.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by ekovarski on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:25AM (#17800135)
In short, don't let your ego overrule your logic. Too often I also see people who consciously or perhaps subconsciously prefer to hire folks who are either less knowledgeable than them or who agree with them on everything. It makes them feel more at ease but the project will suffer for it.

I do like your idea of shipping early and often so you can see the progress and actual results. If I had a dollar for every "we completed 80%" but not being able to demo the product excuse, I'd be so rich that I'd be buying Jeff and Bill dinners. :)

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by true_tuna on Sunday August 19, 2018 @01:44PM (#17795307)
It’s super easy to get experts to vet candidates. Then again it’s also super easy to take a used car to get it checked out, but nobody does that either.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by mmt on Sunday August 19, 2018 @04:29PM (#17796013)
> Then again it’s also super easy to take a used car to get it checked out, but nobody does that either.

Neither of these assertions is true. The second one is easily falsified (even not being pedantic about "nobody"), as evidenced by the existence of "used car inspection" on the price lists of at least some mechanics, if anecdata is not compelling [1].

The first assertion is, in its falsity, makes for an excellent analogy to the topic at hand, which is evaluating developers.

Even a legitimately trustworthy, expert evaluator will not be albe to provide an evaluation that will reliably predict real-world performance over the next several years. This is true for interviewing candidates and for used cars. What one hopes for from the evaluation, is to significantly reduce risk by filtering out obvious (for ones definition) dealbreakers.

[1] Personally, I only buy used cars (and typically 8+ years 75k+ miles). The logistics of getting them to my mechanic for an inspection is the least easy part of the process, when it's a non-dealer seller.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by user5994461 on Sunday August 19, 2018 @08:01PM (#17796902)
I am surprised. Is it hard to get a car inspected in the US?

In France, every used car sale must be accompanied by a recent inspection certificate. Go to any inspection center and they will do it easily for a fixed fee.

Note that inspection centers can only offer inspections, no repair of any sort, to avoid the obvious conflict of interest.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by mmt on Sunday August 19, 2018 @10:47PM (#17797414)
> Is it hard to get a car inspected in the US?

That depends on the definition of "inspected".

> recent inspection certificate

What information is provided? Are there any details, or just that it passed inspection successfully?

Details that are important to me are generally proxies for abuse or poor maintenance habits (e.g. cheap aftermarket parts), though sometimes they're merely an indication of what maintenance has or hasn't been done, in the absence of records (e.g. signs of age/crack on rubber parts).

> Go to any inspection center

This, already, makes it useless for me. I prefer a certain subset of car manufacturers, and I need an expert in the repair of that make of vehicle to adequately reduce my risk to tolerable levels. At the very least, as the buyer, I need to be able to choose the inspector, to avoid the obvious conflict of interest.

> easily for a fixed fee

This sounds remarkably like California's requirement for a recent "smog" certificate prior to a used car sale. It's a easy enough, but some sellers still don't do it. Other than avoiding a minor hassle and cost, it offers almost no benefit to the buyer.

> only offer inspections, no repair of any sort, to avoid the obvious conflict of interest.

This conflict would seem to exist only because it's chosen and paid for by the seller. As a buyer, I very much want the inspection to be done by a mechanic who is experienced in actually maintaining and repairing that particular vehicle.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by user5994461 on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:28PM (#17801880)
There are hundreds of details that are checked for. If any is not in good conditions, it's written down. If it's any important, you have to fix it and come back for a counter visit.

Cracks would most certainly be part of it.

You can choose where you do the inspection. There are a lot of choices, it's like repair shops, but specialized into inspection. It's done by a real mechanics and it's certified.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by mmt on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:16PM (#17802947)
> If any is not in good conditions, it's written down.

Having thoght about my own process, I realized that, even if all the relevant details are exhaustively documented in writing (which would be a huge waste of time/money), what's valuable to me is being able to talk to my mechanic about them.

The written report is just a summary/highlights for me (and the seller) of topics that are either directly of concern, or, as I mentioned, proxy indicators for issues that are impossible to spot with an inspection.

> If it's any important, you have to fix it and come back for a counter visit.

That is something I most definitely do not want. If there's any major maintenance or repair to be done, I trust my choice of mechanic more than the seller's.

I also very much don't want a forced repair to cover up how bad the situation had gotten previously. If the certification process doesn't include the full history, including failure/remediation, then it's a borderline scam.

> Cracks would most certainly be part of it.

And yet they aren't certain to be signal instead of noise. Context matters. Reading "surface cracks in timing belt and CV boots" is useless.

Knowing the difference between the timing belt merely showing signs of age appropriate for the age/odometer reading of the car (and that it can be replaced on schedule) versus being shockingly old and could snap at any moment, possibly bending the valves (which varies by engine design, so even that context is important), is a hugely valuable indicator.

> You can choose where you do the inspection. There are a lot of choices, it's like repair shops, but specialized into inspection.

I, the buyer, can? You've made it sound like it's the seller doing the choosing. Do sellers end up with a stack of cerificates from different buyers' choices?

> It's done by a real mechanics and it's certified.

At the risk of sounding like a No True Scotsman argument, I'm skeptical. If these shops are employing their mechanics full time, and they only perform inspections, they're not real mechanics, for my purposes.

Certification is meaningless, unless it provides the buyer with some kind of practical, monetary protection.

So, yes, useful inspection, that allows me to buy used cars that have a predictable long-term maintenance/repair cost of USD0.12/mile is hard (in the sense of tedious and time consuming). An inspection that merely prevents me from being cheated and buying a total piece of junk (in some large number of cases) may be easy, and, though not totally useless, may be close, if it doesn't improve my chances beyond random luck.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by user5994461 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @02:01PM (#17812104)
I think you have troubles understanding the concept because it's too remote from what you are accustomed too.

The seller has to get the car inspected. It's a standard inspection to detect many many problems. The buyer can certainly gets it re inspected if he likes too. The inspection is a legal document that's important in case of litigation. It provides protection to the buyer and the seller.

A car cannot be sold without an inspection certificate. I think the car is also forbidden from being on the road if it didn't pass an inspection in the last 2 or 3 years.

A timing belt that's shockingly hold and on the verge of breaking is a serious issue. The vehicle should not be allowed to be sold or driven in these conditions.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by mmt on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @04:28PM (#17813456)
> I think you have troubles understanding the concept because it's too remote from what you are accustomed too.

Oh, I understand the concept. It's government regulation of behavior with the intent of protecting the public. I'm quite accustomed to a form of it, with California's emissions checks, as I mentioned.

I just don't believe it produces the desired (to me, the used car buyer) outcome and therefore don't want it [1]. I'd be interested in seeing data showing otherwise. Are long-term maintenance costs reduced by this system?

> The buyer can certainly gets it re inspected if he likes too.

I posit this is the inspection you need to be comparing the ease (and frequency) of, not the initial, seller-initiated one. How buyers in France actually bother? If it's close to zero, then it's just as hard (if not more so) to get a car inspected in France as in the US.

> The inspection is a legal document that's important in case of litigation.

Now that's something I do profess being entirely unaccustomed to: litigation over a used car. I don't think I even know someone who knows someone who has been involved in something like this.

I'm sure it's because US laws don't, in general, support it (and our courts, even "small claims" ones, wouldn't have the bandwidth for it).

I don't want it, anyway, as it could serve to drive up the average price of used cars or drive down their availability. I have a high risk-tolerance [2], so I favor a freer market.

> A car cannot be sold without an inspection certificate. I think the car is also forbidden from being on the road if it didn't pass an inspection in the last 2 or 3 years.

This is exactly like California's "smog", and like other states' "safety" inspections (which may now mostly be in the past).

> A timing belt that's shockingly hold and on the verge of breaking is a serious issue. The vehicle should not be allowed to be sold or driven in these conditions.

I strongly disagree. Although even I might personally choose to tow such a vehicle to the mechanic after purchase instead of driving it, I most certainly don't want the government forcing me to do so [3].

I most certainly don't want the seller being forced to cover up previously poor maintenance habits by replacing only the items that are visibly bad. That actually increases information assymmetry, in a way that cannot be alleviated with additional inspection by the buyer, which is, presumably, contrary to the point of any required and documented inspection. (You never answered if France's inspection certificate includes a full history of such failures.)

Although it doesn't guarantee the behavior, it certainly also encourages the pre-sale repair of only the required part and to use as cheap a replacement part as possible. To the extent that, as a buyer, I'm reimbursing the seller for the expense of that repair as part of the purchase price, it's usually money flushed down the toilet.

The example of timing belts on Hondas exemplifies my predicament. The water pump is driven by the timing belt. A water pump never lasts two timing belts. The vast majority of the cost of replacing either is labor, and the incremental labor cost to replace both at the same time (plus ancillary drive belts) is close to zero. Total cost is around $700 (and reliably lasts 75-120kmi depending on model). A timing belt (only) replacement might be $400, possibly even less with a cheap aftermarket part. The problem is, the water pump could fail immediately (likely enough if the timing belt was way overdue before replacement), and that repair is going to be around $600, plus towing costs and the cost of my time and inconvenience of a breakdown [4]. If there's an aftermarket timing belt, I'm just having the whole $700 replacement done immediately and not risking it, just as I would with an obviously-too-old belt. If neither of those signals is there, I'm left with the risk of not knowing. That risk exists regardless, but it's increased if the seller is routinely forced into this behavior.

[1] I was reading about Lisp's "social" problems on c2.com recently, and there was a mention of an attitude of "you only don't like it because you don't understand it." Such an attitude could be uncharitably condescending, but I don't intend to suggest such an attitude here, as it would be unchartitable on my part.

[2] There already exist options for a relatively wide spectrum of risk tolerances, including new cars (which are covered by "lemon laws" and have available extended warranties, a.k.a. mechanical breakdown insurance (MBI)), manufacturer-"certified" used cars (which, with some manufacturers, make them eligible for the same extended warranty/MBI as a new car), and merely not-as-old used cars with third-party MBI. I actually purchased and used MBI on my one American car (a full-sized van, so no Japanese, or even, at the time, European options), originally puchased new, and it worked out very well.

[3] You may detect a ("small L") libertarian political bias here, which I admit to, but I actually would agree with regulations prohibiting driving a vehicle maintenance problems that are immediate safety concerns. Tires with inadequate tread depth, for example, continuously affect the safety of the vehicle during its operation. The same can't be said for a timing belt that may fail.

[4] Oh yes, I forgot to mention, reliability is another goal besides my 12c/mi long-term maintenance. In my entire time of implementing this goal (i.e. after my first couple cars of my youth where my explicit strategy was to save money with minimal maintenance and by not repairing until a breakdown occurred), excluding the aformentioned American car, I've experienced only two mechanical failures that rendered the car undriveable. Interestingly, both were burst coolant hoses, and both were close enough to be emergency-repaired and driven to the mechanic without a tow. This is 20+ years and over a million miles.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by user5994461 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @05:46PM (#17814132)
You'll excuse me but your comment come off as if you don't trust the government and any regulation to achieve its goal. It's almost a satirical US view.

The regulations works fine here. It ensures that problems can be detected and acted upon. It's simple and it's much better than not having any inspections or inspections run by the repair shops.

For the documentation. The seller should provide the history with the cars, although there is no legal requirement for it. The few expensive tasks like the belt are definitely things to watch out for both parties. It's important to negotiate the price up or down, or avoid buying entirely.

I've had the case once of buying a car second hand, where the seller meticulously kept every visit and repair bill since he bought the car many years ago and it was exclusively done at the manufacturer repair shop.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by mmt on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @12:22AM (#17816280)
> You'll excuse me but your comment come off as if you don't trust the government and any regulation to achieve its goal. It's almost a satirical US view.

Although it's true that I'm generally skeptical of this form of regulation, primarily because there's plenty of evidence of its ineffectiveness, in addition to plenty of undesirable unintended consequences, I'm not categorically against [1] regulation.

More importantly, I fear you've missed some nuance, in your haste to apply that uncharitable characterization.

Even if the regulation is successful in its goal, that goal still differs from my own.

In this situation, I want neither what (I think) the regulation purports to achieve, nor what it actually achieves.

> The regulations works fine here.

I'm sure you think that, because that's what you're accustomed to, if I may paraphrase your earlier comment.

> It's simple and it's much better than not having any inspections or inspections run by the repair shops.

You say this, but you don't back it up with credible evidence or even reasoning.

I'm not, of course, suggesting that prohibiting any inspection would be better, merely not requiring the "simple", mandated process you've described. I've explained why it's worse than buyer-chosen inspection.

You certainly haven't explained why inspections run by repair shops would be worse, other than alluding to a conflict of interest. As I mentioned, I only saw such a conflict with the seller, not me, the buyer.

> It ensures that problems can be detected and acted upon.

This is an example of a goal that I don't have. An arbitrary definition of "problem" on someone else's car I, at best, don't care about.

> The seller should provide the history with the cars, although there is no legal requirement for it.

If it's not included/mandated, then it's safe to assume it's not going to happen (often enough that it cannot be relied upon). "Should" doesn't enter into it. It means that the forced repair prior to certification is tantamount to a cover-up. This is an example of, at best, an unintended consequence, and certainly a goal I don't want.

> The few expensive tasks like the belt are definitely things to watch out for both parties.

That was neither a particularly expensive example, nor is it particularly rare. Clutches and suspensions can easily be more expensive and have the same OOM of wear-out time, for example. Their remaining life is also generally unknowable from inspection, so proxies that are visible, like the timing belt, are critical to me.

As I said, the repair-before-certification part of the inspection process can make it impossible for me, the buyer, to "watch out".

[1] Trust is an entirely different matter. It has to be earned. Better yet, don't resort to trust in the first place or "trust but verify". We can measure outcomes of regulation. There's no excuse for me (considering myself intelligent, informed, and scientifically-minded) blindly accepting "trust us! we know what's good for you!" from any group of humans, be it politicians, civil servants, corporations, or individuals.

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by gshulegaard on Sunday August 19, 2018 @01:47PM (#17795330)
> Then again it’s also super easy to take a used car to get it checked out, but nobody does that either.

I did that...

Re:Don’t Do This in Production by turtlecloud on Sunday August 19, 2018 @04:34PM (#17796030)
Wow. Awesome. Thanks for showing that you are smarter than the majority of people who don’t. Have some empathy for the normies out there.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by j88439h84 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:44PM (#17811207)
How do I get experts to vet candidates? Where do I find experts, how can I assess them, hire them to do this?
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by arikrak on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:55AM (#17799208)
I don't fully understand why there isn't a standard test or the like for vetting programmers. Most companies ask similar types of interview questions, so it seems one place could do it for a job seeker and give them a grade.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by sureaboutthis on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:47AM (#17798927)
I once read, and have found to be true, that one can only train someone else to be 80%, or whatever, as good as you. If you let that person train someone else, then they will be worse than that.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by hutzlibu on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:58AM (#17799895)
Teaching someone to only 80% might be true on average, but the remaining parts they have to figure out on their own. But if you have 20 years experience you surely will never train a newbie to that level in a short time and expect him to train others to your level. For certain skills it works, but you just need experience and that happens over time and willingnes to learn.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by bryanrasmussen on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:46AM (#17798310)
the thing is you also need a technical person on staff who is good at vetting. I consult and am starting a new place in a week, I expect it will be fine, but the interview was a hr person and two techies, the hr person asked some questions and then asked if the techies had questions - no he seems fine. Which of course I am but still, having trusted techies is not the same as having trusted techies that are good at determining who not to trust.
Re:Don’t Do This in Production by chris_wot on Sunday August 19, 2018 @09:35PM (#17797210)
The CEO of one of the companies I worked for hired without any consultation with technical folks. The company barely exists, and he is no longer the CEO.