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Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by solatic on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:54AM (#17772267)
>But the CIA’s interim system contained a technical error: It connected back architecturally to the CIA’s main covert communications platform. When the compromise was suspected, the FBI and NSA both ran “penetration tests” to determine the security of the interim system. They found that cyber experts with access to the interim system could also access the broader covert communications system the agency was using to interact with its vetted sources, according to the former officials.

>In the words of one of the former officials, the CIA had “fucked up the firewall” between the two systems.

If you read between the lines, this raises the suspicion that there's a common underlying infrastructure which handles the communications, with management front-ends for different users which are firewalled off from each other, and the security of the system relied upon the firewall between the different front-ends to prevent users from finding out about each other. However, an attacker who compromised the "less secure" front end, could use that as a launching pad to attack the underlying communication infrastructure, and if the attacker pwned the infrastructure, then he'd have a back entrance to the "more secure" front end.

If that's the case, then somebody was grossly incompetent, depending on the age of the system: if the system is old enough, then somebody running ops in the CIA is incompetent, for continuing to operate a system whose security model ("all you need is a strong enough firewall!") was obsolete; if the system is young enough, then either the original architects, or the security engineers who certified the architecture (if there were any), for proposing an architecture with an obsolete security model.

Arguably, that incompetence amounts to criminal negligence, since it resulted in the deaths of US agents, and somebody should be tried for it.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by covermydonkey on Thursday August 16, 2018 @02:09AM (#17772332)
Agreed.

> U.S. intelligence officers were also able to identify digital links between the covert communications system and the U.S. government itself, according to one former official—links the Chinese agencies almost certainly found as well. These digital links would have made it relatively easy for China to deduce that the covert communications system was being used by the CIA. In fact, some of these links pointed back to parts of the CIA’s own website, according to the former official.

How was this approved? This is such an obvious no-no. Would have expected a completely standalone, ring-fenced platform with absolutely no relationship to the government's known IP addresses and domains?

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by bcaa7f3a8bbc on Thursday August 16, 2018 @02:51AM (#17772491)
What a shock. Even the CIA can be that incompetent?!
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by paulie_a on Thursday August 16, 2018 @06:09AM (#17773341)
I forget where this quote is from but "the CIA would fuck up a cup of coffee"
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by SAI_Peregrinus on Thursday August 16, 2018 @07:50AM (#17773803)
Or the joke:

How do we know the CIA didn't kill Kennedy?

He's dead isn't he?

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by arminiusreturns on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:02AM (#17774231)
Joking aside they definitely played some role, at minimum by participating in the coverup.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by dalore on Thursday August 16, 2018 @06:08AM (#17773337)
Why are they using an off the shelf secure communication system from the Middle East? Surely something this important is a national secret and should be developed in house with your best minds.

If it's off the shelf and others are using, then they can just buy the equipment and look for flaws (like this massive one).

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by jackvalentine on Thursday August 16, 2018 @06:20AM (#17773397)
As I understood it, it was a system they were using in the Middle East (developed in house) and they took it to China to use. Might be wrong though.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by noir_lord on Thursday August 16, 2018 @06:27AM (#17773425)
That's crazy.

Threat model from China in terms of infosec is very different than middle East countries (except isreal perhaps).

Not that it was a good idea in either region.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by jackvalentine on Friday August 17, 2018 @03:01AM (#17780841)
I see you too read the article!
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by sandworm101 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:53AM (#17774590)
Off the shelf may also mean you dont have to smuggle it. It is much easier to hide if there is no special equipment in someone's closet. It sounds like they were using Tor.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by repolfx on Thursday August 16, 2018 @07:46AM (#17773789)
Approved by who? Senior spies who aren't developers?

And who do you think developed this communications system they use? Given government pay scales probably relatively junior web developers trained and used to a consumer-oriented software culture in which "oh let's just drop in this convenient re-usable library" is a no-brainer.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by hackinthebochs on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:59AM (#17774633)
> and the security of the system relied upon the firewall between the different front-ends

I really don't think there's anything to conclude from the "firewall" comment. This term has become a layman way of describing any kind of intended separation between computer systems. People know what firewalls are and so it becomes an overused analogy. It's like how passwords are described as being "encrypted" in layman media.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by dillondoyle on Thursday August 16, 2018 @02:40AM (#17772443)
I obviously have no technical info, but my guess from this article is that 'back entrance' is probably inferring too much.

I would bet that communication apps A and B made connections to the same someCIADomain/IP range (or other less obvious metadata patterns, maybe the shared methods produced enough entropy on the whole to fingerprint).

Thus even if one can't read the content of the message the firewall matches the discovered pattern === likely a spy; so if the less vetted App A source was compromised offline and thus the shared online pattern is now known so too are sources using App B who were less likely to be compromised offline.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by baybal2 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @02:02AM (#17772301)
How stupid it is to spend so much effort on compartmentalising their intel net in the country, but have all spies report by dialing in into the same website in a country employing few brigades worth of people reading tcpdumps 24/7?

Compare that to one way coded messages over hf radio: a place for pick up of a dead drop in n days is broadcasted, then it is picked up by a man who reads it, destroys it, and gtfos from the country. In that scheme nobody in any way contacts anybody in real time other that the HQ.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by brown9-2 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @08:18AM (#17773962)
One would hope they created a new hostname/IP for each source, but even then it is astonishing that they used the same communication method for so many sources.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by dsl on Thursday August 16, 2018 @08:10PM (#17779428)
> Compare that to one way coded messages over hf radio

Having a shortwave radio in your possession is justification enough to haul you in for questing in some countries.

There is also relatively little "radio traffic" to inspect relative to internet traffic.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by sevensor on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:22AM (#17783498)
Perhaps, but given the volume and variety of modern electronics, it's easier than ever for a receiver to look like something else, at least if you don't crack open the case. An antenna can be harder to conceal, but you can often pick up transmissions by tying into unconventional antennas, like the rebar in a slab of concrete, or a long metal railing. You could probably fit a purpose-built receiver / demodulator for FT8 in a usb stick.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by nasredin on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:08PM (#17775864)
There's still "number stations" broadcasting over shortwave radio.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it?!

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by etrevino on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:45AM (#17783174)
Number stations, though, are usually used for things like one-time pads or to send a previously agreed upon command. Detailed instructions are not really what number stations are good for.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by baybal2 on Friday August 17, 2018 @12:14PM (#17783839)
time, date, longitude, latitude is just below the length of an average number station transfer
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by nerdponx on Thursday August 16, 2018 @06:36AM (#17773466)
My guess is that this is actually relatively new system that was implemented after the criticisms in the week of the September 11 attacks. One of the stories you keep hearing is that the plot was not discovered in time because agencies were not sharing enough information.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by st26 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:57AM (#17774623)
To me, preventing this seems like exactly the sort of thing the NSA ought to be for.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by yardie on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:10AM (#17775293)
There was a time when the NSA was in the white hat business; securing networks, identifying vulnerabilities and contributing to net sec projects. SELinux has been their most famous contribution. This all changed with the war on terrorism. Finding and exploiting vulnerabilities was the mission.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by 394549 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:29AM (#17775476)
> There was a time when the NSA was in the white hat business; securing networks, identifying vulnerabilities and contributing to net sec projects. SELinux has been their most famous contribution. This all changed with the war on terrorism. Finding and exploiting vulnerabilities was the mission.

No, they've always had both roles. For instance, their experience and knowledge of advanced code-breaking techniques allowed them to strengthen the DES cipher's S-boxes in ways that weren't publicly understood until decades later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Encryption_Standard#NSA%2...

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by jonnybgood on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:48AM (#17775680)
It hasn’t changed. Why you’re referring to falls under Information Assurance in their mission statement.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by Kalium on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:02PM (#17775804)
Exactly. It tends to not make the news, but it's all there still.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by jessaustin on Thursday August 16, 2018 @03:46PM (#17777883)
If we assume they're "there still", TFA seems to indicate that they could be doing a better job?
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by Kalium on Thursday August 16, 2018 @03:58PM (#17777975)
The CIA has a tendency to do its own thing, and the NSA found the vulnerabilities. To my mind, this suggests that the NSA is competent at their job when allowed to do it. Further, the CIA could stand to benefit by allowing the specialists at the NSA to perform their function rather than trying to replicate it in-house.

This is naught but my opinion, and I understand where others might differ in their reading of the situation presented to us.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by sandworm101 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:51AM (#17774568)
Between the lines: it was Tor.

Deploys on computers. Web-based. Detectable through decryption or pattern analysis. Firewalls. It was a pair of Tor hidden services. The mistake was probably that they ran both on the same machine with only a firewall separating them, rather than physically different servers.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by jandrese on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:06AM (#17774679)
And on the hidden website there was a link back to cia.gov somewhere.

On the other hand I'm surprised tor works in China at all. I would expect the Great Firewall to shut down all entrance/exit nodes going into or out of the country, except maybe for a few controlled by the government.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by Hello71 on Saturday August 18, 2018 @08:42PM (#17791785)
The security level varies frequently. It's known that meek still works in China, which is probably a major reason why both Google and Amazon have shut down domain fronting.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by hackermailman on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:58AM (#17775170)
Which sounds like a management decision to cut costs by running them on the same server. This is probably why we are seeing ex regime department heads in the news lately as political pundits in hopes they create enough deflection to avoid prosecution for 30+ agents dying on their watch.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by obmelvin on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:13PM (#17775903)
Do you seriously think the CIA cared about server costs for something like this?
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by jessaustin on Thursday August 16, 2018 @04:29PM (#17778185)
The less money they spend on this kind of thing, the more they have to funnel to their second cousin's shell corporation. With no oversight, performance degrades.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by hackermailman on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:36PM (#17776169)
Sure, that's some manager's performance bonus. When I briefly worked for Nav Canada our manager decided to buy the cheapest dollar store pens possible in order to pad his performance metrics. We also had to sign them out individually from his safe. Not at all surprised if a CIA manager did a risk analysis and decided lets use the same server(s) and save a few dollars the risk is acceptable.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by SEJeff on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:48AM (#17774549)
Here I was always assuming they employed the types of people who read HN to build systems like this. I'd expect e2e crypto, perfect forward secrecy, perhaps something akin to tor, and maybe even the ability to use steganography to disguise the fact any comms were really happening at all.

Oh look at this cute kitten picture, let me save it and then get the encrypted code out of it. That's great, let me upload this equally cute puppy riding a skateboard picture to the forum that contains my reply.

Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by nyolfen on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:40AM (#17774990)
it wouldn’t surprise me if it was a tor service via bridge. the snowden docs showed that gchq uses tor to communicate with assets. a big part of the value of tor is that even if youre detected connecting to it, that doesnt prove youre doing anything in particular on it, only that you’re using the network.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by SEJeff on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:59AM (#17775781)
Tor was funded by the DoD / CIA for exactly this: https://surveillancevalley.com/blog/fact-checking-the-tor-pr...
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by rb808 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:56AM (#17775138)
What are the salaries the CIA is paying? I doubt they have "the best" on it.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by xkcd-sucks on Thursday August 16, 2018 @10:46AM (#17775043)
The experts in opsec forgot to apply their common sense rules (compartmentalization) to their own software
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by _bxg1 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @09:29AM (#17774416)
This makes a good case for an official software engineering licensing program like what we have for other kinds of engineers, at least for high-risk things like medical control systems and government security. Right now, a nontechnical person has no basis for evaluating the quality of engineer which they hired to do this job, except by asking other engineers, etc.
Re:Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Ch... by debt on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:09AM (#17775282)
The CIA is incompetent. It’s their system.