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Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by omarforgotpwd on Saturday July 07, 2018 @06:07AM (#17477893)
"Listen guys the code for this is a mess. Can you just buy the new Macbook?"

(love my latest gen Macbook Pro, but this is the classic problem with Apple's approach to product design)

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:44AM (#17478471)
>"Listen guys the code for this is a mess. Can you just buy the new Macbook?"

More like:

"Listen guys, the code for this is a mess AND slows your graphics down even when it's not needed. We already have had Retina displays for 6+ years already, and Hi-Dpi displays are the norm these days for third party too, so there's no reason for everybody to suffer from old tech, like there was no reason for everybody to have a floppy disk or CD-ROM on their laptop just because 5% had a real use for it. Part of the way it is with Apple, and has always been is that we move fast, and cut things off first. Until now, this exact tactic got us from near bankruptcy to being the #1 company on the planet. So, if you don't like it, don't let he door hit you on your way out".

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by lexicality on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:15AM (#17478545)
> Hi-Dpi displays are the norm these days for third party

Are they? Nearly every monitor in my company's mainly mac based office is a 1080p dell. All the monitors I personally own are 1x.

I would even go so far as to say that the majority of people who want to buy a monitor for doing text based things (ie business) will buy a bog standard monitor.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:37AM (#17478638)
It's taken a while party because of cost and perhaps a bit more because of the horrible ways Windows and Linux deal with HiDPI. You wouldn't want heterogenous DPIs or non-integer scales on those platforms. On Linux it seems heterogenous DPI is still very experimental and ugly. On Windows some apps are buggy and others are ugly when dealing with heterogenous DPI. On Windows non integer scale does actually work, but it makes some apps size things horrifically. Needless to say Microsoft's multiple approaches to DPI scaling have made a mess, and Linux never really had a unified way of dealing with it.

If you're on a MacOS platform, with the current price of HiDPI IPS displays, the time is right to grab just about anything. If you're on Windows or Linux, it's still a great time so as long as you're keeping all monitors the same DPI and probably integer scale.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by andromeduck on Saturday July 07, 2018 @03:30PM (#17480091)
I'd kill for a 4K 100 Hz MacBook display in the current 15 inch form factor.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by eropple on Saturday July 07, 2018 @03:30PM (#17480090)
Heterogeneous DPI works fine on GNOME3/Wayland these days. I had a 4K laptop running at 150% (it was a tiny screen) and it was perfect.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by damnyou on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:28PM (#17479214)
The only HiDPI monitor I'm willing to use is $2000. I consider 60hz to be unacceptable for work.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:57PM (#17479907)
>I consider 60hz to be unacceptable for work.

Well, the vast majority of the people consider 60hz totally acceptable for work - and work fine with it.

For the huge majority of the people refresh ration > 60hz isn't even a concern.

Better resolution on the other hand is a marked improvement (either as more screen real estate or as finer detail retina style).

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by iknowstuff on Saturday July 07, 2018 @03:49PM (#17480193)
You're absolutely right, but I'd wager it's mostly because they haven't been exposed to 120Hz yet. The moment Apple introduces a 120Hz screen on their iPhones, people are going to want it everywhere. Much like HiDPI displays.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @06:29PM (#17481012)
They have it on the iPad IIRC.

But isn't that more for quick moving stuff, like games or (in the iPhone) quicker visual response to pen input and such?

For regular computing (reading webpages, editing stuff, programming, watching movies) I don't see much of a difference.

Heck, movies are 24p and we're fine with it.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by iknowstuff on Tuesday July 10, 2018 @05:22PM (#17502311)
I absolutely love scrolling on 120Hz displays. It feels so much more natural when the letters aren't blurry as they move under your fingers. Indeed, the iPad Pros have the feature, but they aren't nearly as popular as iPhones. I tried on the Razer Phone, can't wait to have it on mine.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by vardump on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:32PM (#17485681)
100-200 Hz displays are the next logical step for laptops and mobile phones.

Check out iPad Pro devices with 120 Hz display. It makes a big difference in readability of scrolling text (try to read a web page while it's scrolling), responsiveness and smoothness of motion.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by lsorber on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:18PM (#17479706)
And even if you got that monitor, would a MacBook Pro be able to drive it at its refresh rate?
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by vardump on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:35PM (#17485701)
These days even mobile phones can drive external monitors at 4k 60 Hz. I think it's reasonable to expect next gen MacBook Pros to be able to drive two 4k monitors at 120 Hz+.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by lsorber on Monday July 16, 2018 @05:20PM (#17545239)
Looks like the 2018 model still only supports 4K at up to 60Hz [1].

[1] https://www.apple.com/lae/macbook-pro/specs/

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by ramses0 on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:07PM (#17479109)
And the majority of people (and businesses) won't care.

The ones that do already have "Hi-DPI terminal windows and really sharp text" as an almost-mandatory requirement.

Think about it. Sub-pixel text rendering (and AFAIK it's just text, not images w/ subpixel positioning? although that's an incredibly interesting idea for a hack!). Maybe subpixel vectors/lines?

Either you care about high-quality lines or you don't... what Apple's basically doing here is moving the cost to the hardware instead of the software, and the win is simplified, faster, less-energy-using device.

I'm not personally agreeing with Apple's decision, I'm responding to your disbelief that "hi-dpi is the norm". It's the norm for anyone who primarily uses an iPhone. It's the norm for anyone using modern MacBooks (don't make me source my dates on retina displays). It's the norm for "executive" users (ie: software developers, graphics users, finance, book editors, etc.).

If you're happy w/ a bog-standard 1080p output device, then obviously you're not "in search of" the best quality text you can get.

However, thinking it through, I would _really_ like then a "subpixel mode" for either the OS as a whole (kindof like an FSAA?), or especially certain windows. Maybe there's a way to do that as a hack?

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by fauigerzigerk on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:04PM (#17479639)
>If you're happy w/ a bog-standard 1080p output device, then obviously you're not "in search of" the best quality text you can get.

True, but not being in search of the best quality doesn't mean that any quality will do.

I've been happy with text rendering on my bog-standard monitor so far. I'm not sure I will still be happy after this degradation.

But as it seems my current Mac Mini is the last of its kind anyway and I'm going to have to move on from Apple.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @03:00PM (#17479927)
>I'm not personally agreeing with Apple's decision, I'm responding to your disbelief that "hi-dpi is the norm". It's the norm for anyone who primarily uses an iPhone. It's the norm for anyone using modern MacBooks

That's Apple's market, not people holding on to 10 year computers. Not even those that still buy the MBA.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by csomar on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:52PM (#17479319)
> Are they? Nearly every monitor in my company's mainly mac based office is a 1080p dell. All the monitors I personally own are 1x.

They are not. But I guess the point of the parent poster is that Apple require its customers to spend on latest items instead of supporting old tech.

Basically, it is saying: If you can't afford this, don't buy it. It is fair given that Apple products are already marked up in price.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by nasmorn on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:41AM (#17478963)
1x Monitor is only acceptable for gaming in my opinion. I cannot believe people are working on 200$ screens. I mean you can also code on an 80 char terminal in theory, but why would you
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by kps on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:08PM (#17479112)
16:9 monitor is only acceptable for watching movies in my opinion. I cannot believe people are working on TV screens. I mean you can also code on a Commodore 64 in theory, but why would you?
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by skriticos2 on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:57PM (#17479913)
Why? I find it useful to have two pages or terminals side by side. 16:9 matches human FOV pretty good, which is a reason it's so popular.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by kps on Saturday July 07, 2018 @03:53PM (#17480211)
More lines of text.

Historically 16:10 monitors have had the same width as 16:9 ones (e.g. 1920×1200 vs 1920×1080) so there's no difference as far as having things side by side.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by lexicality on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:03PM (#17479630)
I know right, can you believe some people pay less than $3,000 for a basic workstation?
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by 0xffff2 on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:28PM (#17479752)
I think you're being sarcastic, but I honestly can't. I recently bought a new workstation with a $3k budget, and I regret going with a laptop because the budget wasn't enough for me to get an adequate laptop that will still perform well in 3-5 years and get nice monitors.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by lexicality on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:45AM (#17482603)
I was being sarcastic, but also not taking into account currency conversion rates (and possibly the availability of stuff in your country)

Regardless of that, if all you're doing is General Business™ then surely all you need to do is grab an all-in-one box, shove as much 3rd party ram in it as will fit & then nab a couple of monitors and an unbranded mechanical keyboard off amazon.

I did a lot of work on a £700(~$900) Optiplex with 16gb of ram and that was more than capable of running ubuntu on 3 monitors while being small enough to fit into a handbag

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by boterock on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:57PM (#17479908)
Is not that a lot of people have a choice.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:59PM (#17479920)
Is not that people who don't have a choice spend $2k and $3k on Macs.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by camgunz on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:42AM (#17478659)
> AND slows your graphics down even when it's not needed

So just let me turn it off. Or turn it off automatically when I'm scaling. Or leave it as it is because no one's ever cared about it. Removing it is the worst option of all.

> We already have had Retina displays for 6+ years already

External displays are the thing here.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by nxc18 on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:18PM (#17479163)
This is 'Xbox One is online-only #DealWithIt' level sentiment. Fuck the consumer, right?

I really hope the market punishes you for this sentiment.

And P.S. Apple is strong because of the iPod and iPhone - macOS is a tiny part of their business and Apple is strong in spite of their shitting on Mac customers, not because of it.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by msh on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:11AM (#17478827)
The Macbook air which apple is still Selling is NOT Retina...
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @03:01PM (#17479937)
The just sell it as a lower tier option for developing markets and those entering the ecosystem. If they so decide they could drop support for it in a heartbeat and leave the users only running HS.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by otterley on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:26AM (#17478891)
I suspect it won’t be supported by Mojave. If so, it may be a moot point.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by amachefe on Saturday July 07, 2018 @07:51PM (#17481339)
MBA (2012 >) is supported by Mojave
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by soneil on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:43AM (#17478667)
Slightly awkward that the current MacBook Air isn’t retina, however.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by mkempe on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:01AM (#17478769)
It won't be awkward once Apple updates that computer's display before the release of Mojave. I'm looking forward to that.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by RodgerTheGreat on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:09AM (#17478816)
If the "update" also includes removing all the ports except USB-C, getting rid of MagSafe, and switching to an inferior keyboard design to save a few fractions of a millimeter, I don't see much to look forward to.

Seems more likely that Apple will simply discontinue the Air and that the MacBook represents their new vision of what laptops ought to be like.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jonnytran on Tuesday July 10, 2018 @01:02PM (#17499982)
Agreed. Discontinuing the Air seems much more likely. This is so aggravating to me. Air + retina display would have been the perfect laptop for years now, but they simply refused to make it. I hate many of the changes Apple has been making instead, and the new keyboard is an absolute deal-breaker. Don't know how I will ever willingly give Apple my money again...
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by mkempe on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:56AM (#17479045)
Your general skepticism about other aspects of the coming revision of the MacBook Air may be warranted -- nevertheless a retina display would be a great improvement.

Further, if your prediction is correct, why wouldn't Apple already have canceled the Air? what you describe is already on the market: the escape-less MacBook.

I don't feel as skeptical or negative about Apple's plans for new laptops. We shall see, soon!

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by soneil on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:23PM (#17481667)
I do actually suspect the Air will disappear as an offer in due time.

When the Air was released, it had too many limitations, and too high a cost, to take over the macbook's role. Its primary market was people who really valued the mobility over all else. But as they iterated it closed the gap, until it overtook the macbook, and the macbook offer shrivelled up and died.

If you swap 'macbook' and 'Air' in that narrative, you see history repeating - today we're at the first step of that. "The new macbook" is too limited and too expensive to take the Air's place, but give them a few iterations, and I suspect the Air will become unnecessary in the line-up.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by commandlinefan on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:43AM (#17478970)
I still believe that a big problem MS had was their relentless commitment to backward compatibility. I agree at some point you have to dump last years legacy, but Apple seem to want to dump last _weeks_ legacy.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by stemcc on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:00PM (#17479064)
Promising/maintaining backwards compatability is how you market and sustain Enterprise software contracts. For consumer products, it's a bonus if you still get updates after 2 years.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by greggman on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:07PM (#17479654)
apple still sells a whole line of non Hi-DPI machines it's arguably a little early for them to kill this stuff off. They should drop that line or upgrade it to hd-dpi and then in 2-3 year kill off non HI-DPI support
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by noblethrasher on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:15AM (#17478368)
Meh. I see their point. Subpixel AA was about using software to simulate better hardware. But, at the end of the day you really do want the better hardware so that you can use your software budget to simulate an even better generation of hardware. Repeat ad-infinitum, modulo scaling limits.

Pretty sure this is what Alan Kay means when he says that people who are serious about software will make their own hardware.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by adrianN on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:40AM (#17478449)
Maybe we could wait with the step where we don't simulate better hardware until (almost) everybody has upgraded to hardware where that is unnecessary.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by vbezhenar on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:11AM (#17478825)
You can use Windows for that. Apple have different mindset and it shows in many aspects, e.g. removing big USB ports, audio jacks.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by hrktb on Saturday July 07, 2018 @06:33PM (#17481042)
Mac sales massively happen on machines with retina display though.

A 1x monitor will be a cheap second monitor or something attached to a Mac Mini (please keep it alive Apple) or Mac Pro (one day it will come). From Apple's point of view I imagine all of these are just super small niches.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:41AM (#17478658)
One problem: people have no good reason to.

The software folks have a good reason to remove subpixel AA; it's a hack to get better horizontal spatial resolution out of cheap monitors. The users have no reason, however, to buy better, now reasonably-priced, displays that would make subpixel AA unnecessary.

By removing subpixel AA at a time when HiDPI monitors are cheap, Apple is probably doing us a service. In a few years, hopefully everyone will be on a DPI that can render nice text. You may think it's unnecessary, but consider complex glyphs like Hanzi and Kanji, which really don't get enough mileage out of subpixel AA really.

I know it's pretty irritating to suggest that forcing users to buy new hardware is doing them "a service." But really, I see no conflict of interest here. Apple themselves probably hasn't shipped a 96 DPI display in half a decade, and they don't even sell their own external displays, so they don't stand to gain that much here other than software performance.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by admax88q on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:50AM (#17478705)
> In a few years, hopefully everyone will be on a DPI that can render nice text.

My 1x monitor can render text just fine using sub-pixel AA. It's a proven technique that has been around for ages and the text looks great on it.

> consider complex glyphs like Hanzi and Kanji, which really don't get enough mileage out of subpixel AA really.

If I start to become a heavy user of Hanzi and Kanji then I will consider purchasing a monitor that displays it better, but currently not an issue.

> Apple is probably doing us a service.

Requiring me to spend money on new hardware in order to avoid a regression in my experience is somehow doing me a favour? Really?

> so they don't stand to gain that much here other than software performance.

I don't understand the performance argument people keep bringing up. Subpixel AA has been around for ages and worked fine on much older hardware. Why is it suddenly a bottleneck that needs to be removed when my decade old hardware can still do it?

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:20PM (#17479173)
>Requiring me to spend money on new hardware in order to avoid a regression in my experience is somehow doing me a favour? Really?

No, of course not. If you phrase it like that, that is, ignore the point of removing it entirely and all of the benefits that come with it, of course it's not beneficial.

However, 96 DPI was never ideal. HiDPI won't just avoid a regression, it'll improve your experience, period. And with this new software change, you'll get a performance improvement, from better caching and easier GPU acceleration, and software engineers can delete thousands of lines of potentially buggy code made to work around the interaction of subpixel rendering with other graphics code.

Like, subpixel rendering is easy to understand in theory and that might delude one into thinking that it's just a minor annoyance, but it's an annoyance that permeates the stack. You have to special case the entire stack wherever text is concerned. Effectively, the text is being rendered at 3x the horizontal resolution of everything else. This brings in complication across the board. An example is that you pretty much have to do the alpha blending in software, and when you do it requires knowledge of the final composition. Doing alpha blending in software sounds easy... But it's only easy if you do it wrong. Dealing with gamma for example. Which makes life worse because you already have to do this for the other part of your graphics library, probably with a case for both GPU acceleration and software.

Basically, you'd have to render the whole screen at 3x horizontal resolution to remove the need for all of these compositing hacks. Nobody does this because subpixel AA was a hack from the get go.

In an era where battery life and TDP are actually important, finite resources, we want to remove these hacks.

P.S.: if you've never tried rendering large amounts of text on screen before, I highly recommend you try writing a piece of software that needs to do this. A few years ago I struggled to get 60fps rendering text for an IRC client, and of course caching the glyphs was horrendously complex thanks to subpixel AA. It would've been easy if I could've just used GPU compositing like all other graphics, but instead I resorted to hacks everywhere. Maybe today's computers don't need the hacks, but it's worth noting that yes, rendering fonts is resource intensive - you're just living on top of decades of optimizations and hacks to make it look like it's easy.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by admax88q on Saturday July 07, 2018 @01:13PM (#17479404)
> No, of course not. If you phrase it like that, that is

But that's what it is, that's not just clever phrasing on my part.

> HiDPI won't just avoid a regression, it'll improve your experience, period.

I get that, but if I wanted to spend money on that improvement I would do that. The point is my choice is no longer between maintaining my current standard or upgrading, its between regressing my current standard or upgrading.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by sosborn on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:33PM (#17479774)
> The point is my choice is no longer between maintaining my current standard or upgrading

Do you have to upgrade the OS? Nope. It's a choice and a tradeoff.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by adrianN on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:50PM (#17479861)
Unless you want to selflessly support some botnet you have to update your OS pretty soon after it's released. Certainly more often than you have to upgrade your screen.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by Nullabillity on Saturday July 07, 2018 @03:04PM (#17479944)
How well does Apple support old OSes?
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by PascLeRasc on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:34PM (#17481701)
I'm not sure if this was sarcastic or not, but I'd have to say pretty well. I have a 2008 iMac that's stuck on El Cap, and it still gets OS and Safari security updates.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by damnyou on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:31PM (#17479222)
Battery life and TDP are irrelevant with a docked laptop + external monitor, which is specifically what people are concerned about here.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:42PM (#17479265)
Well, I'm not, and neither is Apple, because we are not the common case. I, too, have my Thinkpad docked all the time, connected to two external monitors that are 96 DPI. That does not mean I do not support the move past 96 DPI, I absolutely do despite the extra cost, because I do have HiDPI setups and after having one I have little interest in putting any more money into low DPI equipment.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by damnyou on Saturday July 07, 2018 @01:28PM (#17479472)
The cheapest HiDPI monitor I would even consider buying is $2000. There are no ultrawide HiDPI monitors in existence at the moment.

Of course HiDPI is a regression in some ways. You can get far better non-retina monitors (low latency, higher refresh rate, wider range of aspect ratios) at any price point.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jasonlotito on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:06PM (#17479100)
> The users have no reason, however, to buy better, now reasonably-priced, displays that would make subpixel AA unnecessary.

Please point to me a reasonably-priced HiDPI/Retina Ultrawide (at least 34" and 3440x1440 reso) monitor. I couldn't find one.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by Joeri on Saturday July 07, 2018 @01:40PM (#17479522)
34” 3440x1440 is 110 dpi, which is 1x, not retina. To do retina at those sizes you’re looking at 8k. Only dell has an 8k monitor, and it’s not ultrawide, is very expensive, and most of the mac line-up probably can’t drive that many pixels.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by kps on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:21PM (#17479179)
And please point me to a reasonably-priced HiDPI display that's 16:10 or better. Anything over 20" will do.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:26PM (#17479206)
Of course, I dont have answers. I didn't say HiDPI displays that suit everyone's needs is available for cheap. However, the main problem is that everyday people have a lot of 1080p 24" monitors sitting around. There were probably fifty to a hundred at my old office. Because we didn't have any huge size requirements or uncommon aspect ratio needs, we were able to take advantage of HiDPI displays that cost to the order of $100. To me that's a price point the average person can afford. If it causes some folks to have to shell out a lot of money to stay on 16:10 or have a reasonably large monitor, that is a reasonable trade off; most users don't need em, hence why it's difficult to find good 16:10 monitors in the first place, for example.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jasonlotito on Sunday July 08, 2018 @11:04PM (#17487684)
> The users have no reason, however, to buy better, now reasonably-priced, displays that would make subpixel AA unnecessary.

> Of course, I dont have answers

The questions were related to backing up what you claimed. You obviously could not do this.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by vbezhenar on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:14AM (#17478839)
I don't see USB drives with USB-B port or headphones with jacks going away. I don't think that it'll be different with displays in foreseeable future. macOS users are forced to buy hidpi displays, but they are tiny minority and other people will continue to buy cheaper displays, it won't turn industry. Microsoft could force everyone to upgrade by disable anti-aliasing in new Windows version, but I highly doubt that they would do that.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by InitialLastName on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:53AM (#17479029)
> Microsoft could force everyone to upgrade by disable anti-aliasing in new Windows version

Given how shoddy Win10's support for HiDPI is across applications at the moment (currently I have a choice between running my 4k laptop at full resolution and having a correctly-sized UI in all the applications I use), I seriously hope they don't do that.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:44PM (#17479280)
Do you deal with mixed DPI, for example, via external displays? I have very little issues with Windows 10 on 4K, so as long as I don't mix DPIs. Maybe it's because we're using different software, though.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:22PM (#17479184)
I see absolutely nothing wrong with USB-B or headphone jacks. I'm far from an Apple fanboy, running a Thinkpad with Linux and a Google Pixel 2 (and yes, I am pissed about not having a headphone jack.) I'm not just embracing whatever Apple says. But once I switched all of my machines to HiDPI, I saw the light. This, to me, is not a minor improvement in experience. It is a huge improvement in experience, and in my opinion essential for people who deal with languages that have a more dense script.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by adrianN on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:06AM (#17478799)
Japanese looks fine on my 2009 Mac.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:09PM (#17479115)
Japanese can be rendered acceptably with subpixel AA, but it is significantly worse, especially for complex kanji, than a HiDPI display. For Chinese where you don't have less dense character sets like kana, it's even worse.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:46AM (#17478478)
Well, now is close to that time. Everybody who cares for graphics already has a Retina Mac or a hi-dpi display.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jordache on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:45AM (#17478674)
> Everybody who cares for graphics already has a Retina Mac or a hi-dpi display.

Elementary level of product owner analysis I must say. Proactively constraint your product into a niche category.. tsk, tsk.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:50PM (#17479866)
>Proactively constraint your product into a niche category.. tsk, tsk.

Yeah, it hasn't been working for Apple this past 2 decades. They're only near the $1 trillion mark, could have been way better...

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by pdpi on Saturday July 07, 2018 @08:25AM (#17478192)
It’s less “the code for this is a mess”, and more “the code for this can’t be anything but a mess”.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by AlexandrB on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:23AM (#17478393)
> It’s less “the code for this is a mess”, and more “the code for this can’t be anything but a mess”.

Ok. But so what? As a customer that's not my problem, and Apple has a HUGE war chest to pay developers to maintain the mess. I have nothing but 1x displays externally and this makes Mojave a non-starter.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:52AM (#17478493)
>Ok. But so what? As a customer that's not my problem,

It is. Customers pay for code debt too -- with bugs, slow performance, and slower moving features.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by admax88q on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:44AM (#17478671)
I really don't believe that subpixel rendering is such an inherently complex problem that there is no clean way to implement it.

From the OP it sounds more like its a pain to implement due to the number and design of abstraction layers in the modern macOS graphics stack.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by marktangotango on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:10AM (#17478352)
The gp’s exposition is explicit but makes no sense to me, in a scenegraph architecture all that would be very straightforward for example.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by dilap on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:30AM (#17478909)
It's not like tech debt has no cost. This is engineering effort that can be spent in other places; it's lots of other tasks that become easier because this complication doesn't need to be supported. It's reasonable to argue that'll turn into real benefits in the software in other ways.