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Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by noblethrasher on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:15AM (#17478368)
Meh. I see their point. Subpixel AA was about using software to simulate better hardware. But, at the end of the day you really do want the better hardware so that you can use your software budget to simulate an even better generation of hardware. Repeat ad-infinitum, modulo scaling limits.

Pretty sure this is what Alan Kay means when he says that people who are serious about software will make their own hardware.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by adrianN on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:40AM (#17478449)
Maybe we could wait with the step where we don't simulate better hardware until (almost) everybody has upgraded to hardware where that is unnecessary.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by vbezhenar on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:11AM (#17478825)
You can use Windows for that. Apple have different mindset and it shows in many aspects, e.g. removing big USB ports, audio jacks.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by hrktb on Saturday July 07, 2018 @06:33PM (#17481042)
Mac sales massively happen on machines with retina display though.

A 1x monitor will be a cheap second monitor or something attached to a Mac Mini (please keep it alive Apple) or Mac Pro (one day it will come). From Apple's point of view I imagine all of these are just super small niches.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:41AM (#17478658)
One problem: people have no good reason to.

The software folks have a good reason to remove subpixel AA; it's a hack to get better horizontal spatial resolution out of cheap monitors. The users have no reason, however, to buy better, now reasonably-priced, displays that would make subpixel AA unnecessary.

By removing subpixel AA at a time when HiDPI monitors are cheap, Apple is probably doing us a service. In a few years, hopefully everyone will be on a DPI that can render nice text. You may think it's unnecessary, but consider complex glyphs like Hanzi and Kanji, which really don't get enough mileage out of subpixel AA really.

I know it's pretty irritating to suggest that forcing users to buy new hardware is doing them "a service." But really, I see no conflict of interest here. Apple themselves probably hasn't shipped a 96 DPI display in half a decade, and they don't even sell their own external displays, so they don't stand to gain that much here other than software performance.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by admax88q on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:50AM (#17478705)
> In a few years, hopefully everyone will be on a DPI that can render nice text.

My 1x monitor can render text just fine using sub-pixel AA. It's a proven technique that has been around for ages and the text looks great on it.

> consider complex glyphs like Hanzi and Kanji, which really don't get enough mileage out of subpixel AA really.

If I start to become a heavy user of Hanzi and Kanji then I will consider purchasing a monitor that displays it better, but currently not an issue.

> Apple is probably doing us a service.

Requiring me to spend money on new hardware in order to avoid a regression in my experience is somehow doing me a favour? Really?

> so they don't stand to gain that much here other than software performance.

I don't understand the performance argument people keep bringing up. Subpixel AA has been around for ages and worked fine on much older hardware. Why is it suddenly a bottleneck that needs to be removed when my decade old hardware can still do it?

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:20PM (#17479173)
>Requiring me to spend money on new hardware in order to avoid a regression in my experience is somehow doing me a favour? Really?

No, of course not. If you phrase it like that, that is, ignore the point of removing it entirely and all of the benefits that come with it, of course it's not beneficial.

However, 96 DPI was never ideal. HiDPI won't just avoid a regression, it'll improve your experience, period. And with this new software change, you'll get a performance improvement, from better caching and easier GPU acceleration, and software engineers can delete thousands of lines of potentially buggy code made to work around the interaction of subpixel rendering with other graphics code.

Like, subpixel rendering is easy to understand in theory and that might delude one into thinking that it's just a minor annoyance, but it's an annoyance that permeates the stack. You have to special case the entire stack wherever text is concerned. Effectively, the text is being rendered at 3x the horizontal resolution of everything else. This brings in complication across the board. An example is that you pretty much have to do the alpha blending in software, and when you do it requires knowledge of the final composition. Doing alpha blending in software sounds easy... But it's only easy if you do it wrong. Dealing with gamma for example. Which makes life worse because you already have to do this for the other part of your graphics library, probably with a case for both GPU acceleration and software.

Basically, you'd have to render the whole screen at 3x horizontal resolution to remove the need for all of these compositing hacks. Nobody does this because subpixel AA was a hack from the get go.

In an era where battery life and TDP are actually important, finite resources, we want to remove these hacks.

P.S.: if you've never tried rendering large amounts of text on screen before, I highly recommend you try writing a piece of software that needs to do this. A few years ago I struggled to get 60fps rendering text for an IRC client, and of course caching the glyphs was horrendously complex thanks to subpixel AA. It would've been easy if I could've just used GPU compositing like all other graphics, but instead I resorted to hacks everywhere. Maybe today's computers don't need the hacks, but it's worth noting that yes, rendering fonts is resource intensive - you're just living on top of decades of optimizations and hacks to make it look like it's easy.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by admax88q on Saturday July 07, 2018 @01:13PM (#17479404)
> No, of course not. If you phrase it like that, that is

But that's what it is, that's not just clever phrasing on my part.

> HiDPI won't just avoid a regression, it'll improve your experience, period.

I get that, but if I wanted to spend money on that improvement I would do that. The point is my choice is no longer between maintaining my current standard or upgrading, its between regressing my current standard or upgrading.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by sosborn on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:33PM (#17479774)
> The point is my choice is no longer between maintaining my current standard or upgrading

Do you have to upgrade the OS? Nope. It's a choice and a tradeoff.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by adrianN on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:50PM (#17479861)
Unless you want to selflessly support some botnet you have to update your OS pretty soon after it's released. Certainly more often than you have to upgrade your screen.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by Nullabillity on Saturday July 07, 2018 @03:04PM (#17479944)
How well does Apple support old OSes?
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by PascLeRasc on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:34PM (#17481701)
I'm not sure if this was sarcastic or not, but I'd have to say pretty well. I have a 2008 iMac that's stuck on El Cap, and it still gets OS and Safari security updates.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by damnyou on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:31PM (#17479222)
Battery life and TDP are irrelevant with a docked laptop + external monitor, which is specifically what people are concerned about here.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:42PM (#17479265)
Well, I'm not, and neither is Apple, because we are not the common case. I, too, have my Thinkpad docked all the time, connected to two external monitors that are 96 DPI. That does not mean I do not support the move past 96 DPI, I absolutely do despite the extra cost, because I do have HiDPI setups and after having one I have little interest in putting any more money into low DPI equipment.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by damnyou on Saturday July 07, 2018 @01:28PM (#17479472)
The cheapest HiDPI monitor I would even consider buying is $2000. There are no ultrawide HiDPI monitors in existence at the moment.

Of course HiDPI is a regression in some ways. You can get far better non-retina monitors (low latency, higher refresh rate, wider range of aspect ratios) at any price point.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jasonlotito on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:06PM (#17479100)
> The users have no reason, however, to buy better, now reasonably-priced, displays that would make subpixel AA unnecessary.

Please point to me a reasonably-priced HiDPI/Retina Ultrawide (at least 34" and 3440x1440 reso) monitor. I couldn't find one.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by Joeri on Saturday July 07, 2018 @01:40PM (#17479522)
34” 3440x1440 is 110 dpi, which is 1x, not retina. To do retina at those sizes you’re looking at 8k. Only dell has an 8k monitor, and it’s not ultrawide, is very expensive, and most of the mac line-up probably can’t drive that many pixels.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by kps on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:21PM (#17479179)
And please point me to a reasonably-priced HiDPI display that's 16:10 or better. Anything over 20" will do.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:26PM (#17479206)
Of course, I dont have answers. I didn't say HiDPI displays that suit everyone's needs is available for cheap. However, the main problem is that everyday people have a lot of 1080p 24" monitors sitting around. There were probably fifty to a hundred at my old office. Because we didn't have any huge size requirements or uncommon aspect ratio needs, we were able to take advantage of HiDPI displays that cost to the order of $100. To me that's a price point the average person can afford. If it causes some folks to have to shell out a lot of money to stay on 16:10 or have a reasonably large monitor, that is a reasonable trade off; most users don't need em, hence why it's difficult to find good 16:10 monitors in the first place, for example.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jasonlotito on Sunday July 08, 2018 @11:04PM (#17487684)
> The users have no reason, however, to buy better, now reasonably-priced, displays that would make subpixel AA unnecessary.

> Of course, I dont have answers

The questions were related to backing up what you claimed. You obviously could not do this.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by vbezhenar on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:14AM (#17478839)
I don't see USB drives with USB-B port or headphones with jacks going away. I don't think that it'll be different with displays in foreseeable future. macOS users are forced to buy hidpi displays, but they are tiny minority and other people will continue to buy cheaper displays, it won't turn industry. Microsoft could force everyone to upgrade by disable anti-aliasing in new Windows version, but I highly doubt that they would do that.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by InitialLastName on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:53AM (#17479029)
> Microsoft could force everyone to upgrade by disable anti-aliasing in new Windows version

Given how shoddy Win10's support for HiDPI is across applications at the moment (currently I have a choice between running my 4k laptop at full resolution and having a correctly-sized UI in all the applications I use), I seriously hope they don't do that.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:44PM (#17479280)
Do you deal with mixed DPI, for example, via external displays? I have very little issues with Windows 10 on 4K, so as long as I don't mix DPIs. Maybe it's because we're using different software, though.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:22PM (#17479184)
I see absolutely nothing wrong with USB-B or headphone jacks. I'm far from an Apple fanboy, running a Thinkpad with Linux and a Google Pixel 2 (and yes, I am pissed about not having a headphone jack.) I'm not just embracing whatever Apple says. But once I switched all of my machines to HiDPI, I saw the light. This, to me, is not a minor improvement in experience. It is a huge improvement in experience, and in my opinion essential for people who deal with languages that have a more dense script.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by adrianN on Saturday July 07, 2018 @11:06AM (#17478799)
Japanese looks fine on my 2009 Mac.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jchw on Saturday July 07, 2018 @12:09PM (#17479115)
Japanese can be rendered acceptably with subpixel AA, but it is significantly worse, especially for complex kanji, than a HiDPI display. For Chinese where you don't have less dense character sets like kana, it's even worse.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @09:46AM (#17478478)
Well, now is close to that time. Everybody who cares for graphics already has a Retina Mac or a hi-dpi display.
Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by jordache on Saturday July 07, 2018 @10:45AM (#17478674)
> Everybody who cares for graphics already has a Retina Mac or a hi-dpi display.

Elementary level of product owner analysis I must say. Proactively constraint your product into a niche category.. tsk, tsk.

Re:MacOS Mojave removes subpixel anti-aliasing, making non-r... by coldtea on Saturday July 07, 2018 @02:50PM (#17479866)
>Proactively constraint your product into a niche category.. tsk, tsk.

Yeah, it hasn't been working for Apple this past 2 decades. They're only near the $1 trillion mark, could have been way better...