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Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by sandworm101 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @10:49AM (#17417279)
>> When the world loses a language, as it does every two weeks, we collectively lose the knowledge from past generations.

No. Google translate. I really disagree with this idea that the death of a language somehow means we are cut off from the culture that used the language. Nobody speaks ancient Egyptian but we can still translate their hieroglyphs. Universally common language promotes communication, cultural exchange, understanding and general world peace. I'd rather focus on the promotion of wold languages than the maintenance of isolated regional dialects. I'd rather learn Arabic than Welsh, Cantonese over Romansh.

Wow. "Romansh" is recognized by my spellchecker. But "Shia" of Shia Islam is not. Makes one think.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by baxtr on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:15AM (#17417533)
As a dual native speaker I can tell you: language is not as transactional as you think. There are things that can’t be expressed in another language. Many words have slightly different meanings than their literal counterparts. And most importantly, language constructs a way of thinking, which can’t be transferred by a literal translation. So, language is culture. That means every time a language is lost a part of the world’s culture is lost.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by new299 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:57AM (#17417986)
More generally the idea that "language constructs a way of thinking" is called linguistic relativity [1].

I've been interested in the general idea since reading 1984... where language shaping and limiting thought is a central idea. But I'd be curious to know how much scientific support this idea has.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by WorldMaker on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:32PM (#17418343)
From my readings the scientific consensus feels that we have disproved strong versions of linguistic relativity (Linguistic determinism; that languages determine the scope of how you think), but have mostly been in favor of many of the weak versions (Linguistic influence; that languages influence how you think).

The Wikipedia article you linked has some of the details, but they are obscured a bit if you aren't looking for them. The linked main article on Linguistic determinism has some more direct details in its Criticism section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_determinism

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by noiv on Thursday June 28, 2018 @01:00PM (#17418605)
I'd argue it's rather impossible to disprove strong linguistic relativity as long as no one describes an experiment without using language.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by zyx321 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @01:30PM (#17418866)
You can always invent things first and name them later. Language is not a limiting factor to imagination.

Linguistic determinism is something more among the lines of Newspeak from 1984 or Apple's Emoji Gun Control: By making it harder to talk about something, you make it harder to think about it, and harder to put into action. Thus, you can force language into a certain direction and culture will follow.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by WorldMaker on Thursday June 28, 2018 @03:05PM (#17419585)
> By making it harder to talk about something, you make it harder to think about it, and harder to put into action.

"Harder" is actually the weak hypothesis. The strong hypothesis is much more "impossible".

The common critical dissent to the strong hypothesis is often the Piraha and their lack of numbers and counting words, but demonstrated ability to count and do simple arithmetic even if not name the results verbally in their language. In the strong hypothesis, they wouldn't be able to count at all. Certainly they exhibit some symptoms of the weak hypothesis, because they may have a harder time at it than those with words to describe the effort. (The common criticism to the Piraha criticism is that we've also taught horses, pigs, dolphins, primates, etc to count and do simple arithmetic with no mutually distinguishable language whatsoever, so maybe that's not an impressive example, because maybe counting/arithmetic are outside of the linguistic faculties of the brain.)

> You can always invent things first and name them later.

I find a more impressive example of a disproof of the strong hypothesis and implication for the weak hypothesis to be the Calculus. Though the example is still in the domain of math, I feel that particularly as math trends towards more abstracted thought its entanglement with language seems ever stronger (see computing and programming languages as further examples).

Newton and Liebniz were both polymaths that spoke multiple languages and referenced many of the same primary sources (in those primary sources' own languages), but they had distinct native languages and cultures (Newton's English and Liebniz's German), yet both co-evolved the Calculus independently (to most accounts; let us dismiss the accusations of theft in one direction or the other). They evolved very different notations/jargon/language for the same concepts, but you could still see the underlying concepts as isomorphic, and that those concepts didn't particularly have names or words until the pair invented names and words for them.

Liebniz's notation was superior, in that it made it easier to see similar concepts as similar and easier to work with some of the more complex concepts, which is why the notation we use today is closer to Liebniz's than Newton's (though still somewhat of a pidgin/fusion of the two). Yet, Newton, despite using an "inferior" notation to do so is still best known for discovering so many more of the Calculus' implications to other sciences, especially Physics. In that case a potential disproof of even the weak hypothesis, or rather one anecdotal outlier of the weak hypothesis that seems to indicate how particularly "weak" it may be.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by WorldMaker on Thursday June 28, 2018 @01:04PM (#17418636)
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by jaredmiwilliams on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:35PM (#17418373)
I found this podcast[1] on the subject interesting. It should give you a sense for at least one direction the scientific community is going.

http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2014/0...

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by dpq on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:23PM (#17418244)
While I totally agree with your pov and sentiment from my personal experience (raised in a bilingual family, now speaking 4 languages), I don't see such loss as a terrible tragedy. Cultures that have lost the evolutionary race, who failed to instill competitive world comprehension in the carrier population, are not really useful. Imagine a language that has no concept of future tense, no understanding of planning. Do you really believe it ought to exist? Who are the poor souls that you would sentence to having such a limited and uncompetitive world view just for the sake of diversity, while you go on thinking in in much more advanced concepts? Such a handicap is not something I would knowingly impose on any fellow human being.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by foldr on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:37PM (#17418391)
If you really mean tense, then there are plenty of languages without tense at all. E.g. Chinese. They seem to be doing ok.

It is not necessary to have a grammatical future tense to talk or think about the future. In fact, English does not have a future tense in the technical grammatical sense of 'tense'.

More generally, there's no evidence for the existence of human languages with the sort of lack of expressive power that you're talking about. All languages appear to be more-or-less equivalent in their expressive power, although of course that does not imply that exact translation is possible in all instances.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by ergothus on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:35PM (#17418377)
> Cultures that have lost the evolutionary race, who failed to instill competitive world comprehension in the carrier population, are not really useful.

I was thinking the other day about that language that has no relative left/right and instead everything is based on (effectively) compass direction. The speakers reportedly have excellent direction sense compared to the average non-speaker. Their language is much more efficient at certain tasks we struggle with (English has crutches like "stage left", "starboard", and "your left" to compensate, but unless expected and practiced those are always effort/error prone. I myself fail at simple right/left way too often.)

Obviously this is a linguistic (and arguably cultural) trait with some value, without denying the value of also having relative kedtýright.

This language is unique (? or at least very rare), which tells me it failed to spread. Logical, as it would be hard for non-native speakers to pick up.

But that means "losing the evolutionary race" has no particular relation to the VALUE to us.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by RobertoG on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:38PM (#17418398)
There is not such thing as an "evolutionary race". Race to where?

Would be OK to forget how to make stone tools because we don't need them for now?

Traits are useful in some circumstances and not some useful when circumstances change, who say you would not miss them in the future?

Knowledge is knowledge, it adds to our always imperfect understanding of the world.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by galfarragem on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:17PM (#17418195)
'My homeland is the Portuguese language.' -- Fernando Pessoa
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by rezeroed on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:51AM (#17417923)
"language constructs a way of thinking" -- I wonder to what degree this determines things like a country having little prospect of economic success.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by creep on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:25PM (#17418261)
Some societies do not have words for counting more than "two".

https://numberwarrior.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/is-one-two-ma...

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by sandworm101 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:26PM (#17418280)
>> There are things that can’t be expressed in another language.

Idioms. Metaphors. Reference to background material. Such things may not be expressible in as few words, but there is no idea that cannot be expressed eventually.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by ekianjo on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:20PM (#17418223)
> Nobody speaks ancient Egyptian but we can still translate their hieroglyphs

Bad example. We know how to decipher hieroglyphs because we discovered that there were actually equivalent to another language that was well known at the time. There's tons of other languages we have no idea idea how to decipher, such as Linear A.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by canjobear on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:49AM (#17417900)
Google Translate only works if you can provide lots of training data.

If the language dies before a substantial amount is written down, the training data will never exist.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by fortythirteen on Thursday June 28, 2018 @10:53AM (#17417322)
The majority of those lost languages are spoken only, so we lose the culture's verbal history. Imagine if nobody ever decided to write down the Iliad.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by mc32 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @10:58AM (#17417374)
Language loss and change is a natural process that’s gone on forever. It’s only because we now have the means to be aware of as well as means to salvage that we even care.

What is now China with a few local variants was once covered in numerous dialects like India today, though not as numerous. However, one unifying language has led to a less fractured nation compared to say India or even Europe.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by madhadron on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:37AM (#17417762)
China doesn't have one language. Chinese is a family of languages as diverse as the Romance languages. This has actually been the primary reason that Chinese scholars have failed to replace their current writing system despite trying for a hundred fifty years. Imagine Italians, French, and Spanish speakers all trying to agree on a single written form of a language when they can't acknowledge that they're speaking different languages.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by mc32 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:48AM (#17417883)
I understand that; however, with respect to reading, they practically have one language and additionally, Mandarin (Beijing dialect) is taught nationwide and is a strict requirement.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by zhengyi13 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:41PM (#17418428)
When I traveled briefly in Yunnan, down in Xishuangbanna, I frequently ran into folk where I, as a white foreigner with only 4 years of study under my belt, spoke Mandarin more fluently than they did - and this included people who were nominally Han, not one of the 50-odd ethnic minorities down there.

I'm not sure requirements can be said to be strict when the locals will tell you to your face that the mountains are high and the emperor far away.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by bpicolo on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:59AM (#17418006)
> About 30 percent of China's 1.3 billion population, 400 million people, can't communicate in Mandarin
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by pavel_lishin on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:56AM (#17417975)
> Language loss and change is a natural process that’s gone one forever. It’s only because we now have the means to be aware of as well as means to salvage that we even care.

Just because something is doesn't mean it's right. Tooth decay is also a natural process, as is myopia, and cancer.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by mc32 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:05PM (#17418058)
Sure but this is more akin to being a proscriptive grammarian rather than a descriptive one. Of course we could go old school and try to freeze language in time to be “proper”. This is taking a prescriptive approach to an extreme, in a sense.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by pavel_lishin on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:46PM (#17418482)
There's a difference between a language changing, and a language completely dying out.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by mc32 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:50PM (#17418523)
It’s part of a continuum. One wouldn’t say Spaniards speak Latin, not would we say Latin is a live language (beside some religious usage). One died another (of a few, in this case) grew. Some don’t have descendants, just as people.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by baxtr on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:19AM (#17417583)
The difference is that before languages were newly created too, due to separation. Now, languages just die.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by jmulho on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:14PM (#17418157)
Right, for now, but what about the future? The ingredients for diversity of language and culture are isolation and time. If you send some friends to the other side of a river, or a mountain, or a wall, or an ocean, or to a different planet, and then stop communicating much for a long time, languages will be newly created again. The question is not if, but when and why will this kind of isolation happen again.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by JackCh on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:43AM (#17417826)
Only on Hacker News would I expect to see somebody celebrating the demise of a language in the name of social progress.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by pbhjpbhj on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:22PM (#17418233)
In Wales Cymraeg users demand it being pushed to the fore - this leads to hugely disproportionate spending relative to its economic worth, and a focus on it in schools in preference to use of languages that would foster Xenophilia (languages of other cultures, other countries).

I've no problem with Cymraeg, it's interesting, part of my ancestry, part of British history, half of its fluent speakers prefer it. But if the government stopped putting it up, and supported more learning of major World languages in its place, then I think Wales as a whole would be better off.

Just because something is old, arose in one's own country, etc., doesn't mean it's automatically more valuable (not even culturally) than other things. [And vice-versa of course.]

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by JackCh on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:57PM (#17418582)
A world in which culture is discarded in a pursuit of optimizing for 'economic worth' is not a world I want to live in. Nor I think is it a world you would want to live in, if you really gave it some careful consideration.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by pbhjpbhj on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:56AM (#17423742)
Who said discarded?

Handwriting is giving way to typing and other means of writing (I'm swyping this), should we make computing lessons include handwriting in order not to let that "culture" die out. Sure, support those who choose it, but don't hobble those who don't.

Propping up a language at great expense is costly. I don't wish Cymraeg to be discarded (far from it, historic languages are fascinating), I wish other languages - ones suitable for widespread communication - to be fostered.

As a statistic 19% of the population is in the 20-30 year age bracket and so will have had 6 or more years of compulsory Cymraeg (it's been compulsory for 20 years). The number of adults in total that can _speak_ any Cymraeg is <15%. The response to this natural move to using English - spend more and more money on Cymraeg, make it compulsory within every other primary school lesson.

Pushing Cymraeg in this situation has a great cost directly, but indirectly there's an economic cost in the damage to children's education (our numeracy and literacy scores have dropped relative to the rest of the UK).

Culture changes and "progresses", spending more and more to try and halt that progress is misguided.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by empath75 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @01:40PM (#17418937)
Wtf is the economic worth of a language.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by pbhjpbhj on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:00AM (#17423748)
If you can communicate with more people through a language you can trade, you can create cultural artefacts and people will support that creation.

Trying to prevent the natural decline of one language in the face of a populations preferred use of another costs time and money. There's a cost involved directly and indirectly in not having those resources to spend elsewhere.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by kzrdude on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:06PM (#17418076)
There is a whole lot worse that contributed to our current homogenised global culture.

Which is not intended as celebration, just conversation.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by jxub on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:13AM (#17417513)
It might be a sensitive topic, but apart from small things like knowledge of medicinal plants, there is little to be learned from niche cultures in terms of technology or even the advancements in art. Most of the progress has been made by tinkerers in populous areas and spreaded fast thanks to the shared languages.

Maybe a brash conclusion would be to think that small cultures hamper progress by elevating the barriers to communication and spending energy pointlessly (from an utilitarian point of view) on little artisanal trinkets that are vastly more inefficient compared to, albeit somewhat dystopic, modern manufacturing and unified cultural anglosaxon mish mash.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by pavel_lishin on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:54AM (#17417957)
> advancements in art

I don't think art is a linear progression.

> It might be a sensitive topic

You're telling people of non-dominant cultures that their art and "artisanal trinkets" are, at best, a worthless waist of time.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by jxub on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:25PM (#17418265)
> I don't think art is a linear progression.

True, I lumped it together with technology. The case with art is, it benefits from perspiration from other artists which ocurrs mostly at the scale of bigger cultures.

> You're telling people of non-dominant cultures that their art and "artisanal trinkets" are, at best, a worthless waist of time.

Well, that's the logical conclusion from a pragmatic viewpoint, but emotion bends logic, therefore causing many inefficiencies (which may look "efficient", but just because of looking at them through the filter of emotion).

However, I don't follow the dogma of pragmatism on a personal level, which is just another point that explains the human paranoia between logic and emotions.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by RobertoG on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:48PM (#17418498)
How can you determine what is efficient without knowing what is valuable? And how you determine what is valuable only by logic?

Even the instinct to survive is an emotion. An emotionless agent wouldn't care about survival.

Logic can show you how to arrive to any place, but only e-motion will compel you to move and go.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by jxub on Thursday June 28, 2018 @01:16PM (#17418749)
The question we have to ask ourselves is: "Is emotion perfectly aligned with our incentive maximization?".

By now, we don't have an coherent answer as our main method of value assesment is money (whose value is shared as a belief).

Also, before we proceed we should try to strip our incentives of every trace of emotion, which we'll assume as flawedly disposed against us, as it lags by millenia behing our rational brain, which makes most emotional feedback futile nowadays.

We should first strive to develop a framework that encompasses and evaluates every aspect of existence (which money can't capture yet), and then deny our emotions and work towards achieving the goals of said framework. That or wander aimlessly on this planet guided by our hormonal responses and never leaving the Solar System, just living by our feelings. Unless, of course, we'll manage to reduce the lag of experience-emotions to one comparable to that of reason.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by geezerjay on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:40PM (#17418419)
> It might be a sensitive topic, but apart from small things like knowledge of medicinal plants, there is little to be learned from niche cultures in terms of technology or even the advancements in art.

That was the fundamental belief behind the eurocentric approach to anthropology, and other ethnocentric supremacist belief systems which from ignorance brought a lot of hardship to the world.

You don't have to look far enough to see how your culture, not long ago, was just as niche and pointless as the ones you're criticising now. You should also know that dominating cultures have already succumbed into irrelevance in spite of all the supremacist beliefs. Perhaps there's something to be learned about poopooing other cultures

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by jxub on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:44PM (#17418468)
I'm not criticizing other cultures nor idealizing the mainstream one. I'm just pointing out that large efficiency gains can be had from having fewer and bigger cultures.

However, this optimization makes also our civilization more fragile, so the tradeoffs are more complex than in your version of the theory.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by JackCh on Thursday June 28, 2018 @01:00PM (#17418607)
> "I'm not criticizing other cultures"

Maybe that wasn't your intent, but that's certainly what you did. You basically said that all they have to contribute is knowledge of herbs.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by apocolyps6 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:52AM (#17417936)
There is more to life than the bottom line. Your conception of life as some sort of great march to technotopia (or whatever variant) is just one viewpoint among many.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by ur-whale on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:26PM (#17418274)
I am very much with you.

The standard knee-jerk reaction of wailing at the passing of yet another little-spoken language always fails to take into account the other side of the equation: a huge number of problems on this planet stem from the fact that people speak different languages and profoundly fail to understand one another.

Paying the price of losing little-spoken languages and the bits of culture that tag along with it is a very cheap price to pay when compared to what is gained.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by rando444 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:47PM (#17418494)
a huge number of problems on this planet stem from the fact that people speak different languages

I strongly disagree with whatever led you to believe such a thing.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by ur-whale on Thursday June 28, 2018 @05:15PM (#17420540)
You disagree with traveling?
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by zephyrfalcon on Thursday June 28, 2018 @04:11PM (#17420076)
> a huge number of problems on this planet stem from the fact that people speak different languages and profoundly fail to understand one another

That was the original thought behind Esperanto... the idea was that there was strife between different groups of people because they speak different languages, and that a universal language would solve this (or at least bring them closer together). [1] Whether this worked out or not is left as an exercise to the reader. ;-)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#Creation

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by obmelvin on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:57PM (#17418585)
> people speak different languages and profoundly fail to understand one another.

How much of this do you really attribute to different languages? By and large everyone in America speaks English, but the past couple years in particular has very much demonstrated that we profoundly fail to understand one another. To me the language is obviously important for literal communication, but to an extent pretty irrelevant to the communication barriers in society.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by njarboe on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:32PM (#17418344)
I would imagine that there is less than 1% of people under 50 that speak Romansh natively that don't speak another language fluently, most likely Swiss-German, but also English. With the huge amount of homogenization of culture around the world, I think its cool if some corners try and keep some differences. These Swiss are surely not suffering in some backwater area, unable to move to the big city if they want.
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by mantas on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:02AM (#17417409)
> Universally common language promotes communication, cultural exchange, understanding and general world peace.

I'm sure common language helped Russia and Ukraine when they went into war.

What you're looking for is single worldwide culture. But I doubt that could happen. E.g. colonies in "New World" soon departed from their parent cultures. Even if someone would establish a single culture, it's set to collapse and split into a myriad of smaller ones.

There're a lot of things that define culture. Looking at US coasts-vs-flyover divider, language is not what keeps people together. Even if they shared a somewhat similar culture, different environments make people go in different ways.

> I really disagree with this idea that the death of a language somehow means we are cut off from the culture that used the language.

Culture is much more than just translating words. Different people care more about different things. That PoV is lost when nobody speaks the language natively. Well, it may exist in a book in a library. But there's no way to experience the culture anymore. So yes, it's dead, but not lost.

Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by mrybczyn on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:17AM (#17417560)
Ukrainian and Russian (and Polish) are spoken within the borders that today are called Ukraine, and are not the same language...
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by pavel_lishin on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:46AM (#17417865)
Russia worked very hard to ensure that Russian was the dominant language in most Soviet countries, and tried to stamp out local languages as much as was feasible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russian_languag...
Re:Switzerland's mysterious fourth language by mantas on Friday June 29, 2018 @02:10AM (#17422721)
Russian was the dominant language in pre-war Ukraine. Many people identifying as Ukrainians preferred it in their daily affairs. Ukrainian language made a massive comeback in the past few years though.