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Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by frgtpsswrdlame on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:18PM (#17285573)
>Cattlemen and dairy farmers are saddling up, and lawyering up, in response. The U.S. Cattlemen’s Association has petitioned the Agriculture Department to bar plant-based products from bearing labels that say “beef” or “meat,” with similar restrictions on meat grown from animal cells.

I understand their gripe with plant products, that sounds like deceptive advertising. But the lab-grown stuff is still meat. I think they're trying to take a yard here.

>High-tech upstarts say the proposed labeling rules are a poor defense, pointing out that on a molecular level, plant-based meat products can contain the same amino acids, fats and minerals as animal flesh.

>“People don’t get angry when you call your cellphone a phone,” said Ethan Brown, chief executive of Beyond Meat.

Yes but if I try to buy a "computer" and you give me a phone, it's not a defense to tell me that it still has RAM and hard storage and a screen, etc. Veggies and tofu rolled into a patty may be a "burger" but it's not "meat" or "beef."

>Jaime Athos, chief executive of the Tofurky Co., which sells imitation tofu-based roasts and patties, objects to any ban on the word “meat” in labels. Consumers hear tofu, he said, and “expect it to be bland or not meat-like.”

Jaime, this is your advertising challenge. You don't just pretend your product is something else.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by bunderbunder on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:31PM (#17285738)
> I understand their gripe with plant products, that sounds like deceptive advertising.

It really isn't, though, in practice. All these products have packaging that is designed to make them immediately recognizable as plant-based products. They want, first and foremost, to be attractive to their core market: Vegetarians. They may make other overtures in an effort to attract people who do eat meat, but those invariably involve trying to sell their being plant-based as a thing that makes them a healthier product. Even the Beyond Meat brand, which is the one that skirts the closest to being deceptive here, by virtue of their name, still has "PLANT-BASED XXXX" written front, center, and in large contrasting color letters on the packaging of their products.

Banning words like "beef" and "meat" from the packaging sounds like something that would actually engender confusion among consumers, by effectively banning phrases like "meat free" from the packaging.

This whole effort reads to me as a rather blatant example of rent seeking behavior on the part of an incumbent industry in response to new entrants to the market.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by Alex3917 on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:38PM (#17285843)
> a rather blatant example of rent seeking behavior on the part of an incumbent industry in response to new entrants to the market.

This. For all the shit that people give Silicon Valley, Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods are both going to have a huge positive impact on the world. Already they're as good or better than all but the very best meat-based burgers.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by bunderbunder on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:43PM (#17285917)
See also: Food libel laws, which dramatically alter traditional burden of evidence in defamation lawsuits, but only when the lawsuit concerns claims being made about food products. They appeared in response to a popular wave of concern about food health and safety that happened in the 1990s.

Britannica link (it seems to be more comprehensive than Wikipedia): https://www.britannica.com/story/a-brief-history-of-food-lib...

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by frgtpsswrdlame on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:39PM (#17285860)
>Even the Beyond Meat brand, which is the one that skirts the closest to being deceptive here, by virtue of their name, still has "PLANT-BASED XXXX" written front, center, and in large contrasting color letters on the packaging of their products.

Do they though? I mean here look at this [1]. It totally supports your point, "Plant-Based" is front and center in big green letters.

But what about this product? [2]

And what about this one? [3]

And this one? It says Real Meat right at the top. [4]

And these are going in the meat aisle? Right next to real, actual meat? This is blatant false advertising and consumers are going to be tricked by these products.

>Banning words like "beef" and "meat" from the packaging sounds like something that would actually engender confusion among consumers, by effectively banning phrases like "meat free" from the packaging.

Oh come on, get real. This wouldn't be a problem if "PLANT-BASED" actually was front and center on all of these products.

>This whole effort reads to me as a rather blatant example of rent seeking behavior on the part of an incumbent industry in response to new entrants to the market.

Well you're welcome to read whatever you want into it. I'd really like to see you defend those beef crumbles though. What if those chicken strips are right next to actual chicken strips? You don't think some consumer fresh off work or wrangling a kid or what have you is going to grab them thinking they're actual meat products? Of course they are.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Meat-Burger-0-5/dp/B074YGZ77H

[2] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beyond-Beef-Crumbles-...

[3] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Beast-Burger/13728403...

[4] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Beyond-Meat-Chicken-Grilled-Strip...

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by bunderbunder on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:54PM (#17286068)
You're right. Some of those are pretty awful, and I hadn't seen them before.

That said, I'd still say those are cases that are much better handled by lodging a false advertising complaint with the FTC. Dealing with that one company using the existing legal and regulatory channels is fine, and they're well-known enough that it would probably put anyone else who's thinking of doing similar on notice.

Dealing with that by using them as an excuse to engage in crony capitalism in order to pass an over-expansive law that is clearly designed to distort the market is not OK. Crony capitalism in general is not OK.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by LunaSea on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:38PM (#17285836)
So it should be fine with you if a regular beef steak was called "tofu" since taste is a transitive property.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by bunderbunder on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:46PM (#17285962)
That hypothetical would be a bit more compelling if it weren't predicated the idea that someone might invent a version of steak that is white, gelatinous and shelf stable.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by ddppee on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:22PM (#17285622)
But it's imitation meat. Why not call it meat. Are hotdogs deceptive advertising now too as they probably don't contain any dog meat?
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by frgtpsswrdlame on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:31PM (#17285752)
It has to do with the understanding of the common consumer since they're who we're protecting here. Go ask most consumers what 'meat' means and they'll tell you (something like) it's the flesh of an animal. Ask them what 'beef' is and they'll tell you it's the flesh of a cow. Ask them what a 'hotdog' is and no one is going to tell you it's the flesh of a dog. The goal here is to make sure consumers know what it is they're buying. If I go to the store, am idly shopping and pick up something that looks like this [1] in the meat section and then get home and open it up and cook it and it's actually this [2] I'm going to feel taken. And rightfully so.

[1] https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/59e9d405-24bb-431a-b98b-98d...

[2] https://images.wsj.net/im-13668?width=1260&aspect_ratio=1.5

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by undersuit on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:38PM (#17285837)
>Ask them what a 'hotdog' is and no one is going to tell you it's the flesh of a dog. The goal here is to make sure consumers know what it is they're buying.

Ahh so this will clear up the contents of what is in hotdog(and other processed meats) and allow me to not be bamboozled into eating fake meat.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by gbrown on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:11PM (#17286274)
Protecting lazy and inattentive shoppers from accidentally buying a plant based product is sufficient reason for heavy handed regulation?

This is a non problem being trumped up by an industry that wants to use regulatory capture to make its competitors products less attractive and visible.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by ncallaway on Monday June 11, 2018 @03:50PM (#17287888)
> Protecting lazy and inattentive shoppers from accidentally buying a plant based product is sufficient reason for heavy handed regulation?

Where do you draw the line for what deceptive labeling is allowed and what isn't? How many of the other existing food labeling regulations should we throw out?

What if I label my package to look _very_ similar to a meat product, but put the words "not real meat" in size 8 font on the bottom of the package, is that acceptable?

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by gbrown on Monday June 11, 2018 @04:45PM (#17288424)
> What if I label my package to look _very_ similar to a meat product, but put the words "not real meat"

Then I think you'd have a complaint under existing laws, rather than trying to make a mountain out of a mole-hill. The same would be true in reverse, if a product claimed prominently to be tofu based but contained meat.

I think it's very, very telling that part of the desired result for the meat industry is to prevent these products from sharing shelf space.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by ncallaway on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @04:08PM (#17306493)
> I think it's very, very telling that part of the desired result for the meat industry is to prevent these products from sharing shelf space.

I think that's fair. We already have a healthy set of regulatory requirements around product labeling, and I'm not really opposed to tweaking the labeling requirements around meat vs non-meat products. Regulating shelf-space does seem to be crossing an unnecessary line.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by CompanionCuuube on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:12PM (#17288644)
And if non-Kosher food tried to get put in the Kosher food section and went under brands such as Beyond Kosher?
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by Viliam1234 on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:28PM (#17288756)
Any kind of fraud can be blamed on "lazy and inattentive shoppers", so it's just a question of where do we draw the line.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by taysic on Monday June 11, 2018 @02:51PM (#17287247)
If you ask a vegan of what types of 'meat' you can get in a grocery store they will have a more nuanced answer though.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by rdiddly on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:25PM (#17285667)
Nor are they hot, until you heat them.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by ericdykstra on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:25PM (#17285672)
I would still want a distinction between lab-grown meat and meat from a butchered animal; I'm not interested in putting science experiments in my body.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by koala_man on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:30PM (#17285729)
All modern agriculture is a science experiment.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by asciimo on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:31PM (#17285745)
Just old corpse parts, thank you very much. ;)
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by debacle on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:53PM (#17286062)
Delicious, char-grilled corpse parts.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by the_gastropod on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:23PM (#17285639)
Wait 'til people find out the truth about buffalo wings...
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by frgtpsswrdlame on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:27PM (#17285680)
Actually if you look at the frozen wing section in your grocery store you'll see that many of them are called 'Wyngz' because the Department of Ag. prevents using the term 'wing' unless it's an actual wing. [1] This seems good to me, it means that when shopping for wings I'm not going to be tricked by what I am buying.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyngz

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by the_gastropod on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:36PM (#17286508)
Whoa! I've never seen this. That's pretty funny. Thanks for sharing!
[dead]
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by drivingmenuts on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:38PM (#17285834)
I think this is an appropriate time for [citation needed].

I'm not saying you're making that up, but I would definitely like to see some proof.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by Alex3917 on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:42PM (#17285894)
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by drivingmenuts on Monday June 11, 2018 @04:07PM (#17288054)
The dairy part (even a buffalo dairy) makes sense. I didn't see anything about buffaloes killing prisoners with buckets.

Do you even know how milk is collected?

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by msla on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:52PM (#17286039)
We don't really need the unfunny joke comments.
Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by undersuit on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:35PM (#17285805)
I guess my problem with the meat producers trying to lock down the word meat is that I'm not buying "meat".

I buy specific things. I want to buy chicken. I want to know the chicken was raised in a humane way, as far away from cages and their most recent defection event as possible. I'd like to buy chicken raised on a omnivorous diet of pecking whatever seeds and animals they find on the ground, but I'll take vegetarian raised chicken too. I usually buy as much of the chicken as possible minus the feet, heads, and feathers.

Reducing the burden I have to go through to buy meat will increase the amount of meat I buy. Forbidding the labeling of meat substitutes as meat will not increase the amount of meat I buy or decrease the burden of researching and choosing that meat, but it will still offer me with lots of meat-substitutes with heavily regulated labeling that allows me to decrease the burden of researching and choosing my proteins.

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by padobson on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:27PM (#17285682)
All of this. There is no defense for hiding the truth from your customers. How is anyone helped by selling tofu to someone that wanted to buy beef?

And if something can be labeled GMO or non-GMO, why can't it be labeled lab-created or bio-engineered or the like? It might be molecularly the same, but what's the harm in letting folks know?

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by delbel on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:36PM (#17285808)
Urine is mostly water, and salt.

Gatorade is mostly water, and salt.

If I sold you a bottle of urine, and labeled it as Gatorade, would you be OK with that? What if I put "natural flavoring" (what could be more natural than this!)?

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by nasmorn on Monday June 11, 2018 @01:55PM (#17286681)
Having tasted it I would say people would have their expectations met.

My biggest gripe with this whole soy/wheat meat is the price. It is literally more expensive then using a chicken to turn the wheat and soy into meat. How is that even possible? Obviously it just milks the vegetarians for what they are worth. Otherwise it would be a great substitute for chicken nuggets style meat products. They have no texture or natural flavor anyways

Re:A Stampede of Meatless Products Overrun Grocery Store Mea... by CompanionCuuube on Monday June 11, 2018 @05:05PM (#17288596)
Couldn't someone disrupt the tofu industry by making a product Beyond Tofu containing meat?