News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by wpietri on Friday May 18, 2018 @10:16AM (#17101638)
Definitely. And my real issue with Jobs is more the ripple effect. So many people read stories of Jobs being an asshole and think, "Oh, this is how you success." Ignoring the many assholes who weren't as brilliant or as thoroughly lucky.

Look at Theranos, for example. The CEO was practically a Jobs impersonator. From the turtlenecks and the air of brilliance to the controlling, abusive, and secrecy-oriented behaviors. How many people fell for the fraud? And I can't count the wantrepreneurs I've come across that had similar theories.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by WalterBright on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:42PM (#17102851)
> thoroughly lucky.

Jobs made a huge success 3 times:

1. the Apple II

2. Pixar

3. return to Apple and transforming it from 90 days to bankruptcy to the biggest corporation in the world

You can ascribe one of the above to luck, but faced with all three, Jobs was just that good, and made his own luck.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by timr on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:56PM (#17102991)
You have to be able to separate the things that were good about Jobs (e.g. design sense, marketing instincts, etc.) from what was bad (i.e. being an asshole).

It's the difference between being effective and being Cargo Cult Steve Jobs. Far too many baby entrepreneurs try to mimic Jobs' behaviors, but fail to couple it with any sort of skill or good taste.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by wpietri on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:23PM (#17106480)
This is a false dichotomy. I already said he's brilliant. But that doesn't mean that he wasn't also very lucky.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by r00fus on Saturday May 19, 2018 @12:45AM (#17106703)
No success is without a good degree of luck. Repeated successes show it's less likely that the "luck" is the main factor.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by wpietri on Saturday May 19, 2018 @11:34AM (#17108279)
I don't think "main factor" is even a useful description. With billions of people on this planet, many will score high on brilliance. Steve Jobs could score equally highly on luck. Both could be entirely necessary for this level of success.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by talmand on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:36PM (#17103328)
1. Wozniak 2. Lasseter (and others) 3. Ive

His success was being involved with people with genius and vision that were willing to put up with his shit.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by ghostly_s on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:46PM (#17103407)
I love Woz, but he's demonstrated no ability to create an impression in the marketplace since his time working with Jobs (arguably an unfair assessment as he largely retired). Jobs turned Pixar into an animation studio and gave Lasseter a place to practice his talents. Ive was working at Apple for years before Jobs came back and put his talents to use (not to mention that Ive's design efforts are only one of a huge swath of things Apple started knocking out of the park after Jobs was back in the chair). That's not just success-through-association.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by talmand on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:57PM (#17103505)
Woz had the ideal of giving everything away for free. Of course he had no business sense.

Pixar wanted to be a studio, Jobs wanted it to be a hardware/software company. The people of Pixar forced Jobs into letting it be what it is today.

Jobs recognized Ive for what he is and then Apple became what it is today.

Like I said, Jobs was good at latching on to people with vision and genius to make what him what he is.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by WalterBright on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:26PM (#17103738)
> The people of Pixar forced Jobs

Jobs had a controlling interest in Pixar. Nobody forced him. Pixar would have gone bankrupt without Jobs. Apple would have gone bankrupt without Jobs. Apple would never have existed and we'd have never heard of Woz without Jobs.

Nobody is that lucky. It's like winning the lottery 3 times. Once is luck. 3 times means there's a guiding finger on the roulette wheel.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by graeme on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:51PM (#17103957)
Latching on is an odd way to describe something that happened repeatedly. You're dismissing Jobs singular talent: assembling groups of skilled people and giving them an environment that let them create incredible things. He was genius level at this.

I think Woz is down on Jobs, but Lasseter, Catmull, Ive, Cook, Fred Anderson and others all spoke highly of him.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by talmand on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:37PM (#17145723)
I'm not dismissing that talent, I'm pointing it out.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by joslin01 on Friday May 18, 2018 @03:47PM (#17104423)
It was his vision that made him such a joy to be "latched onto." It's too easy to dismiss building collaborative environments with extreme talent underneath you. People aren't just cattle you can find and latch onto. It's often a reciprocal relationship.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by mturmon on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:03PM (#17103564)
This claim is delusional. The stories about Jobs' vision, product/engineering judgement, and ability to get others to share it are very convincing. They stretch for decades. He basically worked his entire career to put creative computing tools into people's hands (Apple II, Mac, iPod, iPhone, iPad). He did not just happen to get lucky to "be involved with people with genius and vision."
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by fyi1183 on Saturday May 19, 2018 @04:07AM (#17107086)
The iDevices are not really creative computing tools. They're mostly about consumption and, in the case of iPhones, communication.

Really expressing creativity in computing requires a richer interface, at least a keyboard and a mouse.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by raverbashing on Friday May 18, 2018 @03:28PM (#17104268)
You're saying like it's easy to just find a talented person and associate yourself to them and everything else will just work.

BTW things that Ive wasn't involved in when SJ returned to Apple:

- Bring Next software to Apple and create OSX from it

- Software UI/UX design (Ive is mainly a product designer. And it's much more than "let's make colorful plastic" but how to do it so that it looks right, in which colors or how do you actually build this so that it is thin but resistant)

- Simplify product lines and improve focus

- Be involved in the "Think Different" campaign (the bozos at the top level wanted to go with a "We're back" campaign that was proposed to them)

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by jimbokun on Friday May 18, 2018 @05:27PM (#17105085)
"His success was being involved with people with genius and vision that were willing to put up with his shit."

Which was in no way an accident.

Jobs talent was identifying these people, and building environments around them that maximized their talents, while also identifying how to translate those ideas into products people wanted to pay money to buy.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by hellofunk on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:42PM (#17103375)
All three of those guys were/are clueless about business until Jobs made their ideas work.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by talmand on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:54PM (#17103466)
I believe that I made that clear. He was a salesman, obviously a great one, for other people's ideas.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by abritinthebay on Friday May 18, 2018 @04:04PM (#17104553)
No. He was a businessman and a product guy.

He could sell, but as a side effect.

I see this too often from fellow developers - anyone pushing business objectives and strategy instead of engineering choices is a "salesman". It's not true at all.

Calling Jobs a salesman is like calling Einstein a Civil Rights campaigner. Certainly they both did that, and did it well, but it sort of misses the major thing they were good at.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by r00fus on Friday May 18, 2018 @08:28PM (#17105939)
How the heck did you come up with Ive as being #3?

Did Ive make the brilliant decision for the 4-square powerMac/iMac product strategy abandoning the dozens of previous models?

I'm guessing no.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by badcede on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:33PM (#17103809)
That's in no way a counter-argument.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by mmsimanga on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:14PM (#17103133)
Look I see your point and I agree. However, having worked in a number of big companies I am really at a loss as to what is the right way to coerce a number of humans into the "right" direction. I have sat in meetings where ignorant executives have blabbered on and on about nothing because the company and CEO felt it was important to hear everyone out. This works if everyone at the table is knowledgeable and able to swallow their ego. You get people making ridiculous statements like we need to replace our database that runs the whole organisation. I have also worked in a company where the CEO cut people who were blabbering short, mostly rightly but rudely so. I think the two approaches have a time and place. There is probably no need to be rude but I don't know how one cuts someone off without being rude.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by wpietri on Sunday May 20, 2018 @01:22AM (#17111373)
What if there were right ways that don't involve coercion?

What if we can't find them because we let coercive assholes run amok, seizing advantages and damaging people in ways that make it hard to create non-coercive structures that are also highly creative and productive?

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by mmsimanga on Monday May 21, 2018 @03:29AM (#17116749)
I wish I had an answer. It seems to be getting worse or I am just getting old. From where I am standing, management .i.e. "coercion" is considered a stand alone skill. I understand management but I don't buy that it is a standalone skill. Most IT people will not be able to manage a hospital well. I use the word most because I don't want to use the word all and derail this argument. There are off course exceptions, but these are very rare. The number of people who can effectively manage in an industry/business unit they do not understand is less than the number of people currently managing an industry/unit they do not understand. Money, ego, selfishness ... you name it, humna traits get in the way. We all have these one of these traits and we are all affected by these traits.

One of the issues with modern world is that big talkers are rewarded over reserved more knowledgeable people. The more you appear online, the more you talk in meetings and the higher profile you appear the more likely you are to be promoted. It is the way of the world.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by whatshisface on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:08AM (#17102057)
There's a line beyond which Jobsian behaviors will ruin the productivity and happiness of the Woz. Holmes/Kissenger and friends flew over it and landed in "scientists are being forced (and encouraged) to lie to keep their jobs," territory.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by rajeshpant on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:47AM (#17102388)
I googled her images after reading your comment and it is so funny to notice the impersonation.

Also, every C level guy(also middle management wannabes) impersonates Jobs.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by saagarjha on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:26PM (#17103232)
> I googled her images after reading your comment and it is so funny to notice the impersonation.

Well, it's not like she made any effort to conceal it. In fact, she was very public about her desire to appear like Jobs.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by jrs95 on Friday May 18, 2018 @07:04PM (#17105634)
A Jobs impersonator...but without the talent, taste for design, passion for products, or virtually any other positive quality that he had. IMO Holmes has more in common with Jordan Belfort than Steve Jobs.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by lowken10 on Friday May 18, 2018 @10:25AM (#17101694)
I think Elizabeth Holmes belongs in prison. However, I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by geezerjay on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:09AM (#17102075)
> However, I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs.

In short, why do you believe that Steve Jobs was remotely close to being a genius, and what made Elizabeth Holmes do to lead you to believe she also met you definition of a genius?

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by ghostbrainalpha on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:24PM (#17102683)
https://www.wsj.com/video/reporting-on-theranos-and-elizabet...

At 4:00 in this video they talk about Holmes fake "deep voice". I think its pretty clearly her fraud tendencies run really really deep. I don't think you could trust anything you think makes her a genius. The only things we actually know about her is that she could get into Standford, where she dropped out. She could also raise money really well.

I don't think she is by any means dumb. But there is absolutely no evidence of genius.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by rhizome on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:11PM (#17103624)
Funny, lowering the pitch of your voice is a tropey power move that gets zero criticism when practiced by men.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by ghostbrainalpha on Friday May 18, 2018 @02:50PM (#17103950)
Any "tropey power move" should be criticized.

Didn't you just criticize it by the category? When I was raising capital I definitely heard VC's making fun of men who spoke in a false voice, practiced their handshake, or artificially held eye contact way too long.

I'm fine if you want to say my criticism of Holmes is influenced by sexism.

But to make the statement that men speaking in a stupid fake voice get zero criticism... is hyperbole to point ridiculousness.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by rhizome on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @03:23PM (#17128668)
To be sure it can be overdone, but that doesn't detract from its utility and popularity.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by jrs95 on Friday May 18, 2018 @07:06PM (#17105644)
This knee jerk reaction is part of why she was able to get away with it for so long.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by icelancer on Friday May 18, 2018 @05:04PM (#17104945)
>> gets zero criticism when practiced by men

This was literally made fun of in a meeting two days ago for a vendor I work with.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by luddaite on Friday May 18, 2018 @10:42AM (#17101832)
Honest question:

Is raw intelligence or wisdom more important for success in biotech? It seems to me that raw intelligence is useful when studying systems that are either designed rationally or can be understood easily from a mathematics perspective. On the flip side, I think experience is important when dealing with biology which is often messy and not easily understood because so much is still unknown and everything is the result of an accumulation of random variations.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by aaavl2821 on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:29AM (#17102245)
Most biologists I know are very high in raw intelligence. However there's a distinction between biology as a science and biotech as an industry. The key insight that starts development of a new drug often comes from pure molecular biology, but after that, a different type of biology, as well as chemistry and pharmacology quickly become very important.

The industrial drug development process is one of the most technically complex, risky and highly regulated processes in industry. You basically need PhD level experience in almost a dozen distinct technical domains to get a drug approved. Most biotech VCs prefer CEOs with decades of drug dev experience because they know where the pitfalls are and how to execute better

That said, Ive heard a very experienced biotech VC / former big pharma drug developer describe the process of developing a drug as "hanging on by your fingernails", and the traditional dyed in the wool drug industry strategy has pretty much put the industry on a long term declining trend, so maybe experience isnt as powerful as the industry tells itself

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by jackhack on Friday May 18, 2018 @11:38AM (#17102323)
Genius isn't enough. In fact, it can be a detriment in the right (wrong?) environment resulting in stunted emotional and social development. The problem with geniuses is that they tend to think their aptitude is enough to grant them magical ability to be correct. It takes experience and humility to learn that it's not the same, but a life of being pampered and put on a pedestal limits the genius' opportunity to learn this life lesson.

The self-serving genius is roughly equivalent to the pychopath. Once you begin to look for these antisocial behaviors among so-called geniuses you'll see a frightening pattern.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by WalterBright on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:43PM (#17102867)
People thinking they are smarter than they are, and that this entitles them to run other peoples' lives, is hardly limited to geniuses.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by gameswithgo on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:16PM (#17102616)
>I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs.

What were either of them geniuses at exactly? Psychology?

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by xenihn on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:25PM (#17103219)
Sure. People with certain personality disorders are extremely good at reading others, and convincing them to do what they want. Two common (and apt) terms I see thrown about are "social chameleon" and "reality distortion field".

You can also learn how to do it if you don't have one by studying those who do.

Regardless of how someone ends up with the ability, I don't think it's unfair to refer to it as genius, even if it's specifically based on emotional intelligence. They're just on a completely different level in comparison to the general population when it comes to bending others to their will and getting their way.

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by philwelch on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:32PM (#17103288)
I've unfortunately been very close to people with cluster B personality disorders, and I think "savant" is a better term than "genius". In many cases, these people don't even realize how manipulative they are; it's just an unconscious reflex.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by paulcole on Friday May 18, 2018 @10:34AM (#17101764)
For breaking what law(s)?
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by rpedela on Friday May 18, 2018 @10:56AM (#17101957)
Fraud? The kind of fraud that can get someone hurt or killed like the bogus diagnostic tests which could mean a patient ends up taking the wrong drug and/or dose which hurts them.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by paulcole on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:26PM (#17102699)
Do you think Elon Musk should be in jail for the misleading content on this page:

https://www.tesla.com/autopilot

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by rpedela on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:24PM (#17103212)
No because as far as I am aware Elon has not tried to actively hide the problems even if he sometimes paints a rosier picture than reality. That is very different from telling everyone, including regulators, that the diagnostic tests work great, safe, effective. And there are documents showing they knew it didn't work. Theranos is like Enron.
Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by paulsutter on Friday May 18, 2018 @01:06PM (#17103058)
Human drivers kill over 1 million people per year

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...

Re:Jim Black's Steve Jobs Story by gameswithgo on Friday May 18, 2018 @12:17PM (#17102618)
Fraud, theft.