News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by GenerocUsername on Monday May 07, 2018 @02:35PM (#17015199)
And welcome to why self-driving cars will always be 3 years away.

I think we should be targeting self driving for long-haul freeway scenarios where the rules are relatively simple and predictable. Trying to control for the infinite number of scenarios in cities is a nightmare which will ultimately bog down the development of any company which makes that its goal.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by joncrane on Monday May 07, 2018 @02:41PM (#17015237)
> And welcome to why self-driving cars will always be 3 years away.

It's also possible that human/pedestrian behavior will adapt to the consistent behavior of driverless cars.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by splouk on Monday May 07, 2018 @02:51PM (#17015342)
Or jaywalking will become more strictly enforced with policing or physical barriers.

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/4/2/automated-vehic...

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by bryanlarsen on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:14PM (#17015563)
That's a very good argument but I don't think it will come to pass, for this reason: http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences/cutting_off

There's something about driving that turns ordinary people into assholes. I've observed it in myself. Bus passengers are much more considerate, and I think that passengers in self-driving vehicles will behave like passengers, not like drivers. So if a pedestrian cuts them off they'll just shrug and keep playing their game or whatever they're doing.

I hope.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by ksenzee on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:55PM (#17015950)
My theory is that people act like jerks behind the wheel, and come across as jerks even when they're not, because drivers have no way to apologize or ask please or do any other polite thing. All they can do is honk the horn, which is like yelling "HEY!!" If there were a communication mechanism for "excuse me, the light is green now" and "oops, so sorry, didn't see you there" driving would be easier and more pleasant.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by rhacker on Monday May 07, 2018 @06:06PM (#17016862)
I feel like in large cities the majority of drivers actually practice "mean" driving techniques - tailgating, lane protection (preventing people from merging-in when they have to), zoom-ups near contest areas, loud-music in communities, lane weaving.. I've left the bay area a long time ago now, but it's amazing when you live outside of that a couple years how awful people are behind the wheel. I would call it passive-aggressive behavior and it is really really bad to ones mental health. Bay area, Denver, Portland, Seattle there's a few others out west here - but make no mistake, the actions people take while driving is 100% actual jerk, not mistaken jerk.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by zamber on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:57PM (#17016813)
In Poland there's an unwritten custom of saying thanks by flashing emergency stop lights for two ticks. The most common use case is when someone lets you through when they don't have to.

On freeways the same is used by cars coming from the opposite direction if there's a radar ahead.

Still, in peak hours pretty much everyone is a dick, even usually chill Uber drivers.

Edit: it's also used as a "sorry" signal too.

Also, this is not local. I've seen it used all around the country.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by mantas on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @12:30AM (#17018830)
Definitely not local. Pretty much a given in Lithuania too. If someone lets you in etc, it's just rude to not flash emergency lights. Even if somebody squeezed in like total dickhead during a rush hour

We use headlights to warn of friends waiting on the other side of the bush though.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by bencoder on Monday May 07, 2018 @06:51PM (#17017122)
Also seen in London
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by scaryclam on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @10:18AM (#17021029)
And the rest of the UK :)
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by themaninthedark on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @11:38AM (#17021707)
Japan as well
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by panic on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:58PM (#17016437)
Exactly! Every communication you try to make in a car can be interpreted as aggressiveness, which escalates anger on both sides. You need a way to de-escalate.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by paulific on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:47PM (#17016738)
Yes, in Japan there is a custom of briefly tooting the horn to say thank you (for example when someone lets you in in front of them) and they still have problems when people have different ideas of what constitutes "too long".
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by patrickdavey on Monday May 07, 2018 @06:15PM (#17016923)
Hah! I come from Ireland where the custom is also a brief flash of the emergency indicators to say "thanks". I then moved to New Zealand where they toot the horn to say thanks. I was most confused when I got tooted (rude in Ireland) for letting someone pass easily. I was like * buddy ;) then I realized what was going on, well, eventually anyway :)
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by lttlrck on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:52PM (#17017879)
Ha. In Boston I used to get frustrated at oncoming drivers flashing their lights at me. What was I doing wrong? Are my headlights misaligned? Is something falling off? Do I know you? Eventually I worked it out: they were warning me of a police cruiser ahead.

In a state known for Massholes it’s surprisingly unjerkish.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by rm_-rf_slash on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:41PM (#17016316)
Dangerous driving can result in damage, injury, or death. That is why people are so volatile behind the wheel. I don’t think there is any system of communication that can prevent or stop road rage. Dampen, maybe, but that’s about it.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by eric_h on Monday May 07, 2018 @10:44PM (#17018422)
If the internet has taught us anything, it's that anything that facilitates conversation facilitates all types and styles of conversation. I'd posit that a more sophisticated inter-car communication system would add at least one new road rage incident for every one it prevents.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by tlrobinson on Monday May 07, 2018 @09:28PM (#17018103)
Paradoxically, in some places horns are used much more liberally and if you spend much time there that's the feeling you start getting from a honk. Like a "hey just wanted to let you know I'm behind you".
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by c22 on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @12:18AM (#17018791)
When I travelled from India to Nepal I noticed that both places had liberal horn usage, but in Nepal almost all of the horns were musical. They felt much more pleasant than the same custom in New Delhi.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by SmirkingRevenge on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:48PM (#17016359)
They often find other ways to express their jerkiness, like stepping on the gas, swerving around you and cutting you off, or aggressively tailgating, or you know... hand gestures.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by bsder on Monday May 07, 2018 @06:11PM (#17016898)
> There's something about driving that turns ordinary people into assholes.

Game theory with no further interaction so no consequence to defecting other than the immediate.

The problem is that there is always somebody willing to be a jerk to save 2 minutes since nobody wanted to be stuck in traffic. The only defense against that is "Do unto before done unto" and that turns everybody into jerks.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by 8bitsrule on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @03:34AM (#17019469)
The world is already overly car-centered. If cars can't see and stop for people, then they've become an expansion of that problem. I live in a place where, once you're off the curb on corners where there's no light, cars are required to slow/stop for you. Many people will voluntarily do that even if you're NOT off the curb yet. It feels like a courtesy.

The scenario you're describing, OTOH, feels even more alienating than what we're already suffering. What in the hell gives you, sitting on a seat in a car, more right to travel through a space than a walking human being?

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by icebraining on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @06:48AM (#17020035)
Many people will voluntarily do that even if you're NOT off the curb yet. It feels like a courtesy.

Eh, as a pedestrian, I hate that. I have to conscientiously turn my back to avoid impeding the traffic when I don't want to pass!

Still, I agree with you; self-driving cars that can't be trusted to slow down and stop for pedestrians should not pass the licensing requirements. And not just for humans, either; we're not going to teach other animals to follow traffic laws any time soon. I've already seen too many cats killed by assholes speeding over the limit on residential streets.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by skrause on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:23PM (#17016587)
If stricter enforcement of jaywalking laws is required for self-driving cars to work, you can already forget about those cars in almost all other countries where jaywalking laws don't even exist and certainly won't be accepted in the future.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by marnett on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:27PM (#17015690)
if this happens i will surely protest self-driving cars. cities should be built for pedestrians, not cars.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by zdragnar on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:56PM (#17016419)
Don't protest self-driving cars, protest the laws you feel shouldn't apply to you. After all, there are plenty of other reasons jaywalking laws might become more strictly enforced.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by fjsolwmv on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:55PM (#17017529)
The term "jaywalking" was a slur invented by car companies to steal rights from pedestrians. If cars can't avoid people, the cars need to be separated by physical barriers or removed.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by zdragnar on Monday May 07, 2018 @09:04PM (#17017953)
This is in no way contradicting my point.

A pedestrian may illegally have entered a road, but still have right-of-way, and self driving cars will need to account for that.

However, protesting self driving cars will not change whether walking in the street is legal, since it already is not.

Therefore, whether you do so and get fined by police is entirely up to their discretion, which could change at any time for any reason.

If you want it to be legal, protest the illegality, not the car company.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by jkFeiwi on Monday May 07, 2018 @11:54PM (#17018691)
If I'm not mistaken, car makers first lobbied to outlaw jaywalking. So if it's anything like the past, protesting self-driving cars and protesting the laws will amount to the same thing.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by zdragnar on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @08:40AM (#17020489)
The laws are already on the books. Police could choose to apply heavier enforcement regardless of whether or not self driving cars become a thing.

If the law itself is unjust or inappropriate, protest the law.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by resonantjacket5 on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @08:16AM (#17020377)
Lol or perhaps jaywalking laws should be loosened if they're not being applied anyways in most cities.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by zdragnar on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @08:49AM (#17020522)
It depends on the city. My nearest metro does enforce them... at locations for which a particularly large number of people are wont to illegally cross, such as around the University.

Otherwise, enforcement is spotty at best, because the police have better things to do, such as ticket parked cars with expired tabs or meters.

If there were a sudden uptick in pedestrian-car collisions, you can bet they'll crack down.

None of the above addresses whether the law SHOULD be on the books, which is what people should put their efforts towards changing, if they feel is unjust. Protesting car companies that make self driving cars because they don't like an already existing set of laws is just misguided at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by munk-a on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:32PM (#17017756)
They already aren't built for pedestrians in most of the world. I'd be happy just removing the chance that I get killed by a car because the driver wasn't feeling good that day.

That said... I think passengers in self-driving cars will learn to be more patient and we can allow self-driving cars to yield to pedestrians more often.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by pretendscholar on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:16PM (#17017282)
There's something really repulsive about this solution that I can't really eloquently articulate. Every advance in technology seems to further restrict and control people.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by vinay427 on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:04PM (#17015481)
We do it for many pedestrian crossings across railroad tracks, so it's not unprecedented, but obviously on a different scale.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by princeb on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:39PM (#17017400)
or less for increased safety:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by dsfyu404ed on Monday May 07, 2018 @02:52PM (#17015348)
Adaptations are still localized.

Pedestrians have "adapted" to just expect everyone to brake always on most college campuses.

If you treat a factory floor or intermodal facility like a collage campus nobody will be surprised when someone has to use a garden hose to wash you off of whatever multi-thousand pound metal thing you got in the way of.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by stale2002 on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:35PM (#17015761)
On a similar note, the innovation of Serri, and other "AI" programs was not to get computers to understand how humans talk. The innovation was getting humans to speak in a way that computers understand.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by matte_black on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:22PM (#17017310)
Nope. You can never count on humans to change behavior to fit a technology.

As soon as self-driving cars learn local customs, the customs will have been changed. Self-driving cars will always be 3 years away.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by Someone on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:55PM (#17017523)
It may be worse. If cars are very good at avoiding colliding with pedestrians, why would pedestrians look out for cars at all before stepping onto a street?

We may have to tweak the car’s software to be assertive, bordering aggressive, in busy neighborhoods, if the car is to make progress at all.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by icebraining on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @06:49AM (#17020040)
No. Let the passenger deal with that if they're annoyed. Machines should be always "humble". A human in front may be an inconsiderate jerk, or they may be trying to prevent the car from hitting something they're unlikely to detect.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by fjsolwmv on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:53PM (#17017514)
Pittsburgh left custom is 50years old or more
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by rockostrich on Monday May 07, 2018 @02:53PM (#17015355)
This is already happening in the trucking industry. Self-driving trucks are being developed to be able to drive 99% of the trip that's on highways and then human drivers take over for the local 1%. To make it easier, transfer hubs are being built near cities off major highways to make everything easier and non-disruptive. The same thing could be done with cars without the need for the transfer hubs and it basically is already done.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by frankharv on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:00PM (#17015446)
I can't beleive they would do a trail run with an automous truck weighing 80,000lbs barreling down the freeway.

This revolution should have started with mundane tasks, such as city street sweepers and perhaps garbage trucks. Vehicles that move slow on a predefined path in the night. Then advance to faster moving objects like taxis.

Just like the DARPA Grand Challenge that started this mess. Many of those vehicles were industrial usage, not consumer.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by Sangermaine on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:27PM (#17015691)
>This revolution should have started with mundane tasks, such as city street sweepers and perhaps garbage trucks. Vehicles that move slow on a predefined path in the night. Then advance to faster moving objects like taxis.

No, you've got it backwards. The point of all of the above comments is that driving in cities and densely populated areas is a much more difficult challenge than driving down a straight open highway in the middle of nowhere. That's the easy part, the hard part comes when there are humans and all sorts of obstructions and road/land features to deal with.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by ams6110 on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:26PM (#17016201)
Or when there's a random tire or mattress lying in your lane. I see that kind of stuff on the interstates all the time.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by jethro_tell on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:29PM (#17016612)
There's no way 'object in road' can even get close to the amount of variant situations you find yourself in during urban driving.

Freeway driving is pretty straight and forward. If you can't keep from running into a stationary object, you probably can't drive in the city either.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by vilhelm_s on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:36PM (#17016669)
But as this accident shows, that's still an easier problem: if there an object in your lane on the freeway, you should pretty much always avoid it. On a city street, it's more difficult to decide which objects should or shouldn't be ignored.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by kolinko on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:05PM (#17017203)
Autonomous cars have an advantage here compared to even the best human drivers - a persistent 360 degree awareness of the surrounding.

If an object appears on the road, the autonomous vehicle can easily calculate whether it's safe to steer left, or right, or hit the breaks. A human will make a roughly random choice.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by oldgradstudent on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:12PM (#17017643)
> Autonomous cars have an advantage here compared to even the best human drivers - a persistent 360 degree awareness of the surrounding.

Autonomous cars don't have an advantage because they don't exist. They may have an advantage one day when they are finally ready (but that may always be 5 years away)

> If an object appears on the road, the autonomous vehicle can easily calculate whether it's safe to steer left, or right, or hit the breaks. A human will make a roughly random choice.

Even with a 360 degree view, it still has to recognize the object, classify it correctly and make a decision. All tasks which are difficult for a computer to perform reliably enough to be allowed on a public road.

The Uber car had a 360 degree view but it still ran over Elaine Hertzberg, and as far as we know didn't even stop after it hit her. The Tesla Autopilot has 360 degree view but still tends to crash into barriers, tractor trailers, street sweeping trucks and fire trucks.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by usrusr on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:40PM (#17015803)
> I can't beleive they would do a trail run with an automous truck weighing 80,000lbs barreling down the freeway.

Fast driving necessitates predictability. Unrestricted stretches of the autobahn are not killzones because the speed breeds discipline: lanes are changed with indicators on more often than without (barely, but still..), passing lane rules are followed almost religiously, compared to what you see in America (even though drivers constantly complain about imperfections) and so on. The fastest roads of any jurisdiction would its easiest for a robot car or truck. Slow environments on the other hand are full of ad-hoc improvisation and weird traffic participants like the occasional flock of sheep, horse team or a biathlon squad on rollers.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by chris11 on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:04PM (#17015478)
> This revolution should have started with mundane tasks, such as city street sweepers and perhaps garbage trucks.

Honestly I would think that automating a slow moving vehicle in the city would be a much harder engineering challenge. City driving can be a lot messier than driving on the freeway.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by 0x00000000 on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:26PM (#17015678)
The stakes are much lower though. A standard car drifting into the oncoming lane is basically death. If it can't handle city driving, the methods are probably too immature to put people's lives against.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by mrep on Monday May 07, 2018 @06:04PM (#17016852)
Pretty much all interstates have barriers between the directions to prevent head on collisions.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by oldgradstudent on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:18PM (#17017672)
Hitting a barrier in highway speeds is quite dangerous, even without hitting a car in the oncoming lane.

As the recent Tesla crash showed, even on a divided highway there are plenty of opportunities to cause death and mayhem to the autonomous car and the surrounding vehicles.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by fredoralive on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @04:53AM (#17019694)
> This revolution should have started with mundane tasks, such as city street sweepers and perhaps garbage trucks.

Garbage trucks are big and heavy, so if things go wrong they can go badly wrong, such as the incident in Glasgow that killed six people[1].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Glasgow_bin_lorry_crash

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by icebraining on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @07:05AM (#17020100)
This revolution should have started with mundane tasks, such as city street sweepers and perhaps garbage trucks.

It has. The EasyMile EZ10 (a passenger shuttle) has already been deployed in a lot of places, for example.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by aurailious on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:05PM (#17015493)
Essentially make the freeways "car trains" as the autobahn implies. Eventually over time you add automation to other kinds of roads.
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by hughw on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:43PM (#17016338)
I think "bahn" translates to "path". Autobahn doesn't connote "car train". (Disclaimer: 1 year of college German)
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by detaro on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:58PM (#17016442)
Pretty much. See in English railway (Eisenbahn in German) or runway (Startbahn/Landebahn) for the equivalent patterns. Especially since in the beginning railway and Eisenbahn meant primarily the way with rails only, not the entire enterprise.

Autobahn might actually be derived from Eisenbahn in that Wikipedia says some group choose it because of the similarity, but it only works because Bahn is the more general concept.

Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by kiliantics on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @12:03AM (#17018730)
We should anyway just remove cars from cities altogether
Re:Uber vehicle reportedly saw but ignored woman it struck by oldgradstudent on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:59PM (#17017555)
You're underestimating the difficulty. Self-driving cars will always be 5 years away.