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Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Sunday April 22, 2018 @11:55PM (#16900405)
These articles always ignore leverage.

Generally, with 20% down you are leveraged 5:1. So even if your home is just keeping pace with inflation of 3%, you actually experience 15% growth on your investment. To use the example in the article, if your investment doubled between 2009 and now, your $200k in a $1M home just became 1.2M. 6x growth beats out 3x growth in stocks in the same period.

Sure, you can be leveraged in other investments but (1) your interest won't be tax deductible, (2) your interest rates won't be nearly as low, and most importantly (3) you won't be able to borrow with no recourse (depends on the state law, but "no recourse" means your downside on a primary residence is limited to the equity in the home. If you default on the loan they can't come after your other assets.)

Does it mean renting is a bad idea? No. There are plenty of reasons it might make financial sense to rent. But articles like these should accurately discuss the financial upside of buying.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by klipt on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:21AM (#16900501)
> Generally, with 20% down you are leveraged 5:1. So even if your home is just keeping pace with inflation of 3%, you actually experience 15% growth on your investment.

But if inflation is 3%, you're probably paying 3% (or more) interest on your loan.

So suppose your home costs X. You pay 0.2X downpayment and borrow 0.8X through your mortgage. The first year your home appreciates to 1.03X but you also pay around 3% of 0.8X = 0.024X in interest. So your gain is 0.03X appreciation - 0.024X interest = 0.006X: which is exactly 3% of your 0.2X downpayment! Looks like the leverage didn't help in this scenario at all.

Of course if you bought in the Bay Area a few years ago you made bank, but that's because the growth here happened to be much faster than inflation, even without leverage.

> Sure, you can be leveraged in other investments but (1) your interest won't be tax deductible, (2) your interest rates won't be nearly as low, and most importantly (3) you won't be able to borrow with no recourse

(3) is true, but you can buy stocks on margin, the interest is deductible as a business expense, and interest rates are often lower than mortgage rates.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by hvidgaard on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:45AM (#16901017)
What all professionals do, and what all potential home buyers should do, is run the actual numbers of expenses that is purely property taxes, interest, fees, expected maintenance, bills such as heating and electricity, and other related expenses not specifically reducing the amount of debt. That is the price of living in the house - compare that to renting a place.

The difference between owning and renting expenses, is what you should compare to the risk/reward analysis of the property value.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by VLM on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:08AM (#16903046)
Expected maintenance, LOL. Just saying as an older guy if you're not factoring in HVAC replacements, roof replacements, driveway replacements, appliance replacements, even the expenses of major yard work, you will miss thousands per year on average. I'll see these estimates online where people laughably expect to spend less than $1K/yr on home maint, LOL I spend that much on the roof averaged by year, and I spent more than that on one clothes washer this month, and the average appliance is now carefully value engineered not to last more than a couple years. Try like $1K/month on average as an absolute minimum not the online typical $1K/yr which wouldn't even maintain the level of a crackhouse.

Also do not forget time. I only have 168 hours per week minus zillions of things, to enjoy life, and after all the subtractions often there isn't that much time left to enjoy. Yes if I need to replace the tiles in my bathroom I can save a little money doing it myself but even contracting out will be hours of work to design, decide, and coordinate, and who stays home to let the craftsmen into the house and its just a circus. When I rented a bachelor pad, ALL repair work consisted of verbally mentioning it to on site manager and magically things happened, I paid more rent than average for that privilege compared to people who have to sue their landlords for any little thing, but there is no escape from spending lots of time as a building superintendent if you own a house. Buying a house is getting a part time job as a landlord. Its not like the kitchen faucet magically knows its in a owned house so it'll never fail, vs a rental.

I mean, we have to realize the groupthink on HN is that cooking food for yourself is an intolerable waste of time compared to spending two hours in restaurants daily, so owning a house and having to dump many hours into the uncountable sufferings of home ownership must be completely unacceptable; rent a nice place and "invest" about five minutes a month into telling the manager what he needs to do.

The second to last measure is many lifestyles require real estate. Not everyone wants to live life with no capital goods other than a mobile phone. I'd be pretty unsatisfied with life without my table saw and lathe and garden and ham radio antennas and a couple other things that simply require land to be realistically practical, aka go buy a house and do your hobbies in it. For all practical purposes in the market I live in you can not have a dog while renting, for example.

A final measure not often mentioned is its just a fun experience to try; Its amusing to reread some of the complaints about home ownership rewritten to apply to having friends, or buying a pet, or having children, or traveling, or getting drunk. I didn't have kids because of an enormous amount of handwaving about how I'll be wealthy if they become child movie stars or historically kids in an agricultural setting were a net financial positive which should mean something in suburban 2010s or some equally ridiculous argument. Owning a house is a VERY expensive hobby, but if you have fun and can afford it and its not hurting anyone else, may as well try it...

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by uxp100 on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:29AM (#16903201)
I think this is a good post and a good perspective to take, but its worth pointing out you bought an expensive washing machine, though if its more reliable, then that's probably the better purchase. On good days I do like my house hobby.

I mainly bought a house because I kept having to move every year, renting flats in houses where they decided they wanted to sell, or move in themselves, etc. So now only the bank and the state can kick me out, and not relatively more capricious property owners.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by VLM on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:54AM (#16903893)
Not so, I bought the cheapest washing machine I could get. I dropped about $1200 cash on a speed queen that'll last me maybe 20 years. Joe 6 pack finances a new LG every three years at 29.99% credit card interest for $600 and thinks I'm getting ripped off.

Its just like the situation with hiking boots, I can only afford the $250 boots that last many years, I'm not rich enough to afford the $100 boots that only last one year before falling apart. I can't afford to spend $100, I have to spend $250. Richer people than I, can buy themselves the $100 boots.

Also at some big box stores I've seen some masterful post sale salesmanship. New washer hoses cost $19 on the shelf but as part of the installation package they'll prevent your basement from being flooded for only $50 installed by our professionals (usually lower quality hoses too). Installation "only" costs $99 but you need the new hoses for $50 and fuel prices went up a decade ago so we still have our temporary $19.99 fuel surcharge on our deliveries. Oh you want the old washer hauled away, thats only $50 and they totally take care of the problem for you. Technically according to google search you can buy a box containing a LG top loader thats normally $770 for a mere $650, but unless you have time, skills, and a large vehicle that box of machinery won't wash any clothes for $650, add something like $220 worth of installation... Oh and thats 18 months financing but it only has a one year guarantee for parts and labor, which is comical... for a mere $150 you can get a five year guarantee which is about a quarter the lifespan of my speed queen, if and only if you also purchase installation services. Suddenly that "cheap" $650 washer is going to hit the credit card for over a kilobuck and its only going to last five years at best while providing plenty of repair work headaches. So figure twenty years of clothes washing costs $1200 with a speed queen or over $4000 with LG products... I'm not wealthy enough to buy $650 washers I can only afford the $1200 washers.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by uxp100 on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:27PM (#16904872)
The cheap washers are not $650, that's still an expensive washer. The cheapest new washers are more like $350. And probably not any less reliable that the $650 washer, just less neat buttons, no glass top. Yeah, probably less reliable than the speed queen.

Hoses are quite the racket. Because of where I put the washer, I had to get extra long ones.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by zeveb on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @10:38AM (#16912918)
> Yeah, probably less reliable than the speed queen.

Sadly, according to an article HN sadly killed[0], the Speed Queen is no longer particularly good: https://thewirecutter.com/blog/speed-queen-washer/

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16576899

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by hvidgaard on Wednesday April 25, 2018 @03:59AM (#16919414)
Or you can buy a Bosch for $400 on sale. One of the not fancy models and it'll last you 10 years easily. It's also serviceable if you need to repair it - not to the degree of a Speed Queen, but totally doable. It's also significantly cheaper to run compared to a Speed Queen. With that in mind you can probably buy 3 of them (including delivery) for the same price of a Speed Queen over a 20 year period.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by _nalply on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:08PM (#16905304)
If you can't estimate the quality of things, buy the cheapest you get. Because nobody hinders someone selling you crap for double the price.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jamaicahest on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @09:33AM (#16912403)
In this day and age, with trustworthy online review sites like Consumer Reports, I find it is fairly easy to find quality products at a price somewhere in the middle.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by rout39574 on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:17AM (#16904130)
This is Terry Pratchett's "Boots theory of wealth", placed in the mouth of Sam Vimes. Rock on.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by tothepixel on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:49PM (#16906766)
A+ post.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by ApolloFortyNine on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:45AM (#16903805)
Though 1k is a pretty naive estimate, 12k a year is just not right.

I'm having trouble coming up with any way to prove it wrong, besides common sense. Think of the price of appliances, and then think of how many you can get with 12k. Reshingling a roof tends to be around 5k, and lasts for 30 years.

I can't even imagine a scenario where you spend 12k a year.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by ghaff on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:05AM (#16904005)
It does depend on the age and condition of the house. I bought a fixer-upper about 20 years ago. But just as an example, I spent $16K on a small bathroom remodel last year--which was partially aesthetics but there was definitely plumbing work that had to be done. Another $1K on carpeting that was really old and scruffy. $4K on major tree trimming/removal. That's more than a typical year but that's the sort of expenses I have.

This year I'll have some new windows put in to replace very old ones that look like complete crap.

Arguably some of that is optional but it's pretty typical for me. $1K/month seems like a reasonable estimate for me. I imagine that a newer house could well be less.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by coryfklein on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:11PM (#16904693)
Having owned a 2500 sq ft home on 0.25 acres, honestly 12k is totally within the realm of reason. A roof may last for 30 years, but odds are the home you are in has a roof that needs replacing sooner than that, so you only have 5-10 years to save for its replacement.

Also don't forget that the previous tenant let his kids shoot BBs at the siding, so the water has been leaking in causing it to wear faster and faster, your wife doesn't like how it looks like grandma's house, and for some reason the toilet in the master bath takes 10 minutes to refill the tank and it drives you nuts just often enough that you seriously consider ripping out the requisite walls just to re-run the old copper piping.

Oh and when you bought this home, did you already happen to have a lawn mower, edger, fertilizer spreader, and such? Are you planning on utilizing that extra space to build a raised garden and then realize half-way through that if you don't install an automated drip system you'll have sunk all those costs into a garden that dies the moment you leave on a 7-day family vacation?

Oh yea and the last owner definitely was heavy handed with the salt on the driveway, and you don't need to replace it now, but better put $100 a month into a savings fund for the inevitable replacement 5 years from now.

Not to mention that the cement that was poured to make the back porch has re-leveled itself at a 4 degree angle and when you host guests they bump the picnic table such that it always wobbles and spills everyone's drinks. Fortunately you don't have to excavate it and re-pour because there now exist companies that use advanced machinery to just backfill in extra concrete to level the pads, but it still is going to put you out $2k.

/end rant

Needless to say, as I look at our next home, I am realizing there is this delightful sweet-spot between home ownership and renting an apartment: townhomes in master-planned communities. The HOA covers building _and_ yard maintenance, but you have full creative power over the inside. No need to store shovels and lawn mowers, and your weekends are free to walk the park that is literally across the street (I'm looking at you, Daybreak, in South Jordan UT). Oh and the single-car garage isn't a big deal because transit is built straight to the community, and you are within walking distance to convenience stores and the pub.

It's basically "a house" with all the negative parts taken care of by paying the HOA who can deal with the economies of scale, making the cost very worth it if you are an engineer with a little bit of cash to spare each month.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by ApolloFortyNine on Saturday May 05, 2018 @05:36PM (#17003976)
A lot you mentioned should have been known when you bought the home (when you had it inspected).

Therefore, a lot of the improvements you made should have added value to the home. I'd consider improvements different then simple maintenance/random failures (your cement issue). The siding, roof, and driveway should have all been things you took into account when buying the house, so any improvements made there should have an immediate affect on the value of your house.

>Oh and when you bought this home, did you already happen to have a lawn mower, edger, fertilizer spreader, and such?

If you buy a house and legitimately have to worry about the $200 you'll spend on a lawn mower, then maybe buying isn't for you.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by ghaff on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:28AM (#16903647)
I own an old house and $1K/month is a pretty good guesstimate. I probably spend more than that but around $1K/month is probably around the point where, if I spent a lot less than that, I'd be going into maintenance debt.

I agree with your point that owning a house is a lot about lifestyle. I have a lot of sports gear, like canoes, that would be more difficult in an apartment setting. Yes, you can rent storage units but you definitely have to make compromises.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by hvidgaard on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:27AM (#16903193)
If you budget with $1k/yr for maintenance you're in for a bad ride. If you go with something like $2/sqft*year from the house is build, you're closer. But buy any 10-20 year old house and it will be far higher.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by VLM on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:00AM (#16903964)
I would agree with your evaluation and propose an even more accurate prediction would include the aspect that a 50 gallon water heater or a dishwasher costs the same regardless of 1500 sqft or 6000 sqft so the ideal formula is probably some linear equation with a fixed amount plus a sqft amount. $1500 plus $1/sqft per year maybe a good start.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by gangstead on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:09AM (#16913198)
Except the 6000 sqft house has 2 water heaters, 2 or possibly 3 hvac systems and another bathroom or 3.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by tylerjwilk00 on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @06:34AM (#16911373)
As another data point, I really enjoy home maintenance and improvement but totally understand why others may not.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by Spooky23 on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:09AM (#16903496)
I own a home built in 1927. Maintenance and renovation are similar to the costs of carrying a mutual fund.

I hire out most renovation, but don’t hire gardeners, etc. If you want a hands free lifestyle, that’s awesome but costly.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by emodendroket on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:12AM (#16903520)
I usually see $5K/year as an estimate or some kind of percentage of the value of the home.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by BeetleB on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:33AM (#16904302)
Sorry: $1K/month is ridiculous.

I've owned a non-new home for a few years now. I have all the records of repairs/maintenance. So far the average is less than $130/mo (that includes buying two microwaves and a washer)

My roof needs to be reshingled. That'll cost about $6K (got a bunch of estimates from roofers). Maybe $12K 20-30 years down the road for a full replacement. That'll likely be my biggest expense, which is not even $1K/yr, let alone a month.

My other appliances are old. Once I replace them, it will bump the average to at most $200/mo.

I don't do any repair work myself - always pay to get it done. You either have a huge house or live in a very expensive area (mine is above the national average).

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by ghaff on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:13PM (#16904716)
Plumbing work, electrical work, trees that need trimming, kitchen or bathroom remodels (which may not be absolutely necessary but are part of a house not getting more and more rundown), painting, replacing windows and doors, furnace work including annual cleaning, etc. In a newer house in good condition, it may be less than $1K/month but it does add up over time. A lot of maintenance can be deferred but over 10+ years, there's a lot that needs to be done eventually.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by BeetleB on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:36PM (#16906162)
>Plumbing work

Done some of that.

>electrical work

How often is this needed? Unless your house is so old and not up to code...? To give you an idea, I lived in a place for 2 decades and it never needed electrical work.

>trees that need trimming

It's your property - you control how many trees and how big. If it's too costly just get rid of them. Having said that, I just trimmed two trees on my property over a month ago. An hour or two of work and the right tool. Of course, if my trees were much bigger I'd have to pay someone.

BTW, I did not assume yard work as part of the amount per month. Of course, everything (including HOA, yard, etc) needs to be factored in, but I thought you were talking only about maintenance of the house.

>kitchen or bathroom remodels

How often? My house is almost 20 years old and I can see it going at least another 20 years before any such work is needed.

>painting

I assume you mean exterior? I guess - how much you need depends on the type of house. Mine uses vinyl sidings - no paint needed. But yes, you need to paint a few other parts. For my house, this is once every so many years - and the estimate I got was under $1000.

>replacing windows and doors

20 years old and look like new - I think mine will last another decade or two.

>furnace work including annual cleaning

I get my furnace tuned every year - costs $85. I included that in my estimate of less than $130/mo. Don't forget water heater maintenance too!

As I said, I'm not pulling numbers out of nowhere. I actually did this analysis some months ago. I have all the numbers on how much I've spent repairing stuff and maintenance in my software. I added it all up and calculated the number I gave you. It was actually $100/mo, but since then I think I've replaced two appliances so I bumped it up to $130 (total cost of the appliances + install is under $1000 - divide it up by 48 months I've lived there).

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by ghaff on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:40PM (#16906207)
I’m giving you my numbers as well. I haven’t kept close track but with big projects—which have included improvements—it’s been something more than $1k per month. But then it’s 200 years old and was in serious maintenance debt when I bought it.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by BeetleB on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:41PM (#16906709)
>But then it’s 200 years old and was in serious maintenance debt when I bought it.

That's a pretty big disclaimer that you probably should have mentioned up front. Your choice of house is far from typical, and they make the costs some standard deviations from typical.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by chatmasta on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:49AM (#16901932)
But with renting there is no reward.

EDIT: In addition to mobility cited by a reply to this comment, another advantage is the saved opportunity cost of investment in real estate vs other markets.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jayess on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:07AM (#16902273)
Having been burned badly in the real estate meltdown, there is a lot more freedom in renting than buying. I'm just now getting slightly inclined to consider buying again, but it would have to be a whopping deal. I've enjoyed renting since at least 2010. I especially like the ability to call the landlord and tell them that the sink is leaking and they need to get it fixed. Or the water heater stopped working, come out and fix it... Nothing out of pocket for me.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:31AM (#16902411)
When it comes to making a trade off for convenience vs. cost, I usually choose cost within reason and I also got burned by the real estate meltdown. I was in no hurry to buy.

But the rent where we were staying went from $1300 to $1800 within 3 years for a 3 bedroom, 1650 square foot apartment. We were able to buy a house, a brand new build 3000 square feet 5 bed/3.5 bath for $2000/month with only 3.5% down in a neighborhood zoned to top rated schools.

As far as convenience, we pay a lawn service $140/month to cut our grass and now that the home warranty is up (paid for by the builder), we pay about $700/year for a "home warranty" when anything breaks you just call them and pay a deductible. Is The warranty a good deal financially? Probably not, but it is convenient.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jronsomers on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:54AM (#16903392)
That is awesome and you are able to buy a house like that, especially a brand new build (to your liking). However, I want to mention it seems you are in the right place at the right time. Your case is an outlier in my opinion and I'm happy you are taking advantage of it. Especially considering that it is in a great school zone. I just felt that this isn't normal, even for the Midwest (which is where i can only imagine you are).

That is a neat 'home warranty' thing you have though. I've never seen that before. Whenever I own a home, that sounds enticing to have.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:04AM (#16903460)
As far as being an outlier, it's not that our case is just an outlier, so is our house. We had to move further out into the suburbs to get that price. It's not a bad commute.

I'm not endorsing this particular provider. It's just the first one that comes up when you Google "Home Warranty"

https://www.ahs.com/home-warranty/

Average price is around $850.

https://www.homeadvisor.com/cost/inspectors-and-appraisers/p...

When I was a landlord and owned three rental properties they were worth every penny.

Let me emphasize that buying one is statistically not a good deal and it usually makes more sense just to "self insure" and save for repairs. But it is more of a convenience thing.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by moorhosj on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:55AM (#16903912)
$2000 mortgage $140 lawn care $58 warranty

Instead of paying the $1,800/month, you are now paying $2,200/month.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:06AM (#16904016)
Yes, but the rent will keep rising with market prices and we were living in the most sought after part of town -- the most affluent city in the state. The mortgage will never increase and is excellent inflation hedge. The property taxes may increase slowly but after 5-7 years, we can get rid of the approximate $300 a month in PMI.

We also have 1300 more square feet, a separate house with a yard instead of an apartment, 2 more bedrooms, 1-1/2 more baths, a separate office and we don't pay the mandatory $100 a month for crappy cable and capped internet from Comcast -- as part of the lease, you had to pay for cable. We pay $70 a month for gigabit internet from AT&T.

Heck I save $80/month by getting rid of my gym membership and converting one of the spare bedrooms to a gym.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by daxorid on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:19AM (#16903580)
> there is a lot more freedom in renting than buying

There are varying definitions of "freedom" to consider.

Sure, there is the freedom of being able to walk away after 12 months to someplace else.

But there is also the freedom of being able to plant a garden, or paint your room, or install shelving, or excavate a root cellar, or install a new doorknob, etc, without having to get express written permission from your landlord (which will almost always be no).

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by A1phab3t on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:50PM (#16906784)
That is almost the entire reason that I like owning. The kitchen looks like I want it to look, the walls are the color I want them to be, the doorbell is wifi, I have a Nest thermostat, and if I don't like that there's a peach tree in the front yard I have it removed (true story!).
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by chaosbutters314 on Monday April 23, 2018 @08:50AM (#16902914)
I get to live closely with a bunch of cool people and not isolated in some house in a suburb. I think renting has a nice social benefit.

Plus, the mobility aspect to just pick up and leave gives me a ton of reassurance.

There is also the bonus that someone else has to fix the appliances and do maintanance than me.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by verylittlemeat on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:58AM (#16903418)
I think your point often gets missed in these conversations about rent vs buy.

You have two choices that masquerade as purely economic ones while ignoring the enormous lifestyle differences.

I rent a tiny room in the heart of NYC for the cost of probably a monthly mortgage payment on a nice house in upstate NY. For me there is really no alternative because my entire life revolves around my immediate walkable neighborhood.

The economics of rent vs buy matter but lifestyle and future expectations are too often downplayed in comparison.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by OtterCoder on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:30AM (#16903660)
That's exactly why, as a family man, I hate renting. You end up changing neighborhoods every few years, and none of your friends are permanent.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by hvidgaard on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:59AM (#16902226)
That is true, but that is covered in the very last sentence. Renting is significantly less volatile, assuming the contract is reasonable for both sides. Buying a house is a risk/reward analysis of the value compared to the price difference, positive or negative, to renting.

That is not to say this is the only thing to consider. Often people know where they want to live and what size of property/house they need, and for many people that is only achievable by buying.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:54AM (#16901952)
There is mobility.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by k__ on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:33AM (#16902125)
Also, rents go up all the time, especially while moving into a new flat.

If you rent a flat for 20-40 years, the rent won't change as much as when you move around every few years.

So you might end up with super low rent compared to the rest of the city after 10 years or so.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:41AM (#16902147)
Rent control is only a thing in a few areas of the country. In most of the country, rent can increase at the end of a lease as much as the market will handle.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by k__ on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:41AM (#16902493)
Ah okay. I'm from Germany, where we have rent control everywhere.

But I also know a guy from NY who rented a flat for a few hundred bucks decades ago and now subrents it to other people for thousands.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by code4tee on Monday April 23, 2018 @08:12AM (#16902670)
What he is doing is probably illegal then (if he’s rent controlled). You can’t profit like that.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by conanbatt on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:07AM (#16904020)
Gotta say I always found this incredible. Rent control is so stupid that even it has to put rules on not being used.

Who is being harmed by a rent-controllee sub-leasing? Literally no one. Because the harm to the owner is already made in the form of rent control.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by kcanini on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:43PM (#16909474)
> Who is being harmed by a rent-controllee sub-leasing? Literally no one.

The owner is harmed, because otherwise they could have gotten a new tenant and raised the rent back up to market rate.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by conanbatt on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @02:54PM (#16915510)
Only if the tenant leaved. If leaving loses the rent-control, the tenant will stay. The price is well below market rate, then they wouldnt even get roomates, harming the entire rental market on both ends: by removing profits from the owner and decreasing supply.

If rent-control didn't have the restriction, then it wouldnt make a dent into rent prices, but it would clearly show that it is a mere transfer from the owner to the rent-controllee.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by bogomipz on Monday April 23, 2018 @08:58AM (#16902979)
If its NYC it is indeed illegal and without a doubt unethical. You are only allowed to pass rent-controlled apartments to family members and those family members must liver there two years prior to transitioning the lease to them.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by notyourday on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:26AM (#16902380)
Except, say, you want to stay in NYC. Rent are ridiculous and continue not only to be ridiculous but become more and more ridiculous and unless you just happened to be in a rent controlled apartment, you are at a mercy of your landlord.

You may as well do 7/1 ARM or 7 year IOM and treat it as rent.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by AnthonyMouse on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:12AM (#16900682)
> But if inflation is 3%, you're probably paying 3% (or more) interest on your loan.

Not only that, leverage is risk. Buy a home in 2006, or in a city on the decline, and you may lose everything you put in. Leverage multiplies the losses as well as the gains.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:31AM (#16900532)
That's fair. It definitely underscores the actual point of the article which is "You should run your own numbers rather than believe 'conventional wisdom'".

I'd love to see some analysis (perhaps a monte carlo sim) on how the "no recourse" angle plays out. I can only assume that a floor on losses skews the expected outcome significantly.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jo909 on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:17AM (#16900926)
It underscores how little you should trust your own numbers (or numbers from strangers on the internet). Forget one small factor and the whole picture shifts a lot.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by dspillett on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:23AM (#16901832)
> how little you should trust your own numbers. Forget one small factor and the whole picture shifts a lot.

Though you should at least try run the numbers. Maybe you will forget an important detail but if you just go with your gut or an insufficiently specific recommendation from elsewhere you will likely miss many more important details.

The trick is to do some research first, and if possible have someone else look over your thoughts to see if they can spot an important omission. Be particularly careful if the sums add up in a way that closely confirms your original idea - your analysis might be unintentionally biased by subconscious filtering.

> or numbers from strangers on the internet

That is definitely something to be wary of. Too many people base decisions on simple advice without checking that the advice is even relevant to their specific situation. I've seen people in the UK dump figures into US targeted calculators with the thought that "the $<->£ is the same for every figure so it will all work out OK" without thinking that our tax regimes and other factors are quite different in ways that can have a large impact.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by rb808 on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:48AM (#16903352)
Exactly - so if I buy a Bay Area house, what numbers do I put in? Will it go up 10% a year, or down 10% a year? I can see either happening. Certainly doesn't have much to do with inflation.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jonkho on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:36AM (#16903713)
Leverage still outperforms fixed interest payments. Rising home prices compound on previous years’ appreciation. Your leverage rides on the back of this compounding. In contrast, your interest payments are fixed on the value of the dollars the year the loan was written.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by conanbatt on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:01AM (#16903976)
This was particularly true in the past, but i wouldnt bet much on this effect nowadays. Inflation is the true way to get this effect, but the dollar hasnt suffered inflation in decades.

The new effect we have is asset inflation: sure you payed 3% for this house, but this house cost a lot more. When interest rates raise, mortgages are more expensive but house values go down.

It is said that its better to buy in a high interest rate period at a low value, than a low interest rate at high value: in the former, you can re-fi later.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:44AM (#16903802)
Ahh... Great point!
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by ProAm on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:53AM (#16900609)
Your forgetting the tax write off of mortgage interest. Which needs to go into you equation no? That can be sizable.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by throw_away on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:01AM (#16900635)
Note that this will be capped at interest on a value of $750k for houses bought starting this year, so less than before. I think the leverage angle is ignoring the fact that your equity can be wiped as well in a downturn. It's unlikely my index fund will go to zero (and if it does, we'll probably have bigger problems on our hands).
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:10AM (#16900670)
> leverage angle is ignoring the fact that your equity can be wiped as well in a downturn

I call that out when talking about "no recourse". If you leverage 5X in the stock market and invest $1M in index funds and the market drops by 30%, you are on the hook for the $100k beyond your $200k you lost. If you leverage 5X in a personal residence and the market drops by 30% (and you live in a no-recourse state), then you mail the keys to the bank and walk away. Very unique situation.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by dash2 on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:06AM (#16901092)
> If you leverage 5X in a personal residence and the market drops by 30% (and you live in a no-recourse state), then you mail the keys to the bank and walk away. Very unique situation.

But that seems dishonest.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by rlpb on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:39AM (#16901616)
> But that seems dishonest.

It's not. The bank has calculated and accepted the risk and factored it into your interest rate and other charges. Considering it to be dishonest is financially equivalent to considering a (not fraudulent) insurance payout to be dishonest.

Think about it this way. The bank has effectively bought an insurance policy to protect itself against this event and is paying the premium out of your interest charges. Now does it seem dishonest?

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by zrail on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:33AM (#16903232)
In the US if you put down less than 20% the bank literally takes out an insurance policy called Primary Mortgage Insurnace for this risk and makes you pay for it.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by rsync on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:21AM (#16903595)
"It's not. The bank has calculated and accepted the risk and factored it into your interest rate and other charges. Considering it to be dishonest is financially equivalent to considering a (not fraudulent) insurance payout to be dishonest."

That's not a true equivalency. Unless your loan has language or provisions for "mailing back the keys", doing so is an act of default and regardless of how well (or poorly) the lender(s) has/have hedged against the default you are breaking the agreement.

A real equivalency is stealing from walmart "because they can afford it". You shouldn't do that and you also shouldn't default on agreements you enter into.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:54AM (#16903896)
> A real equivalency is stealing from walmart "because they can afford it"

That's not a real equivalent at all. Walmart could press charges and recoup their loss through legal action. Stealing from Walmart is illegal.

Defaulting on a contract is not illegal. That's precisely why we have contracts in the first place. It spells out what would happen in a default, and both parties voluntarily enter into the agreement. If one party is not happy with the terms of default then they shouldn't sign the contract.

In a no recourse default, it is literally spelled out in the contract: "If you default, the lender will not be come after your other assets".

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by asfasgasg on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:52PM (#16909723)
> That's not a true equivalency. Unless your loan has language or provisions for "mailing back the keys", doing so is an act of default and regardless of how well (or poorly) the lender(s) has/have hedged against the default you are breaking the agreement.

It depends on what you mean by "breaking the agreement." The state of default, its triggers, and its consequences are part of the agreement. You are acting within the scope of the agreement by triggering that state.

If you write a program like this:

    if (foo) { doX(); } else { doY(); }
does foo being false "break" the if statement? In a mortgage, it is (vastly simplified):

    if (youKeepPaying) {
      youGetToLiveInTheHouse();
    } else if (youSendUsTheKeys) {
      exit();
    } else {
      weWillSendTheSheriff();
    }
If anything, the last condition is the exceptional one. The contract doesn't generally contemplate what happens if you stop paying but also refuse to leave the dwelling.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:26AM (#16901542)
I absolutely agree it seems dishonest. But at the same time, it's in the contract. I'm aware of it, the bank is aware of it. They won't hesitate to foreclose on me if it's in their best interest according to the terms of the contract. Should I hesitate to take the action that is in my best interest?
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by Redoubts on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:33AM (#16901231)
Why? Lending is a risk on both ends.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by hueving on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:53AM (#16901944)
It's called a put option in the stock market.

In this case its priced into the risk of your loan and you bought it by being in the state and taking a loan there.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by klipt on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:54AM (#16901047)
Sure, but that's a "the government is giving home owners a tax discount to encourage home ownership" argument, not a "leverage can turn inflation-tracking assets into inflation-beating assets" argument.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by dingaling on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:11AM (#16901454)
That's a uniquely American benefit. Most Western mortgage-payers have to pay out of post-tax income.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:07AM (#16902016)
As well as most Americans. You can either take the standard deduction of $24,000 as a couple or itemize. Most Americans don't buy homes where the interest is high enough to be over the standard deduction.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jalk on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:18AM (#16901495)
Mortgage interest is tax deductible in the Scandinavian countries and in the Netherlands IFAIK
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by emodendroket on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:31PM (#16904924)
From the article:

> As with all articles on Afford Anything, these high-level concepts can be applied anywhere. But specifics about laws, taxes, inflation, etc., are geared at a United States audience.

So I think it's fair to go ahead and mention US-specific counters to the arguments without specifying.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by Freak_NL on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:19AM (#16901498)
We have it in the Netherlands as well, although it is gradually being phased out.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:05AM (#16902004)
Not really. The average home price in the US is $200K (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/29/what-the-median-home-price-o...). You would have to buy a house with a mortgage of over $500K as a couple to make the interest more than the standard deduction. If you include the $10K cap on state taxes and property taxes, still with the average household income being 60K, most people won't be taking advantage of the mortgage interest deduction.

The standard deduction is $24K for a couple.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jnwatson on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:13AM (#16903094)
As of 2018 in the USA, the tax write off is much smaller now, given that the standard deduction is so high.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by magduf on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:08PM (#16904657)
This used to be a bigger benefit. Now with Trump's new tax law, the standard deduction has been doubled to $24k, so to make it worthwhile to itemize your taxes, you need to pay at least that much in mortgage interest, which equates to a rather expensive house. The new tax law is a really good thing for renters, not so good for house-buyers.

I'm another one who was burned in the real estate collapse, and have been renting ever since. I was definitely not a trump voter, but I have to say his new tax plan looks like it's going to benefit me greatly.

Another thing I've noticed people haven't mentioned here is the freedom that comes with renting. As with many in the tech industry, I don't normally stay at a single job for 20 years, but instead I end up changing jobs every few years. If I buy a house convenient to work, and then end up having to get a new job that's across town, I either have a horrible commute or I rent out my place and go rent a new one. As a renter, I can just give notice and find a new place in a better location.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by s17n on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:17AM (#16900924)
There's no such thing as a margin call on a mortgage.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by refurb on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:08AM (#16904047)
There is in Canada! Mortgages have 5-year terms, but 30 year amortization. When you renew at the end of your 5-year term, the mortgage company can ask for an appraisal and ask you to cough up enough money to maintain 80% loan-to-value.

That's even if you keep the exact same mortgage and bank.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by sokoloff on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:52AM (#16902192)
Not on a typical residential mortgage, but commercial balloon mortgages often have a provision for the loan being called early.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by rsync on Monday April 23, 2018 @10:22AM (#16903603)
... also many (most ?) seller-financed residential mortgages.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by neuxenian on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:39AM (#16901621)
Leverage cuts both ways, though. As someone who just sold their house, the costs are a percent of the sale. You don't get taxed on the sales (generally) but you will probably have to pay real estate sales costs. So yes, if your home increases by 3%, you've gained 15% growth on your investment, but if the sale cost is 5% of the the sale price, then things aren't so clear anymore.

The real calculation is the total monthly cost of ownership plus any sale prices on the buying and selling ends over the period, relative to the total costs of renting.

Over the 10 years we've owned our home, yes, it's been worth it to buy, because we can recoup money that would have gone to someone else.

However, over a short period, the sales costs would dwarf any returns we would get.

The sales costs are largely fixed on both ends, as a percent of home value, and diminish as a total percent of gains over the period of ownership. So the period of ownership is relevant.

This in turn is relevant because your mobility becomes relevant.

The previous market we were in too, was so overpriced relative to the rental cost that we actually saved money over the period by renting rather than buying. Then the Great Recession happened.

Either strategy makes sense depending on your mobility risk and the market. I don't think it's clear that one or the other is generally better.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jacquesm on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:56AM (#16901959)
5% is the norm in the United States, elsewhere it is a fraction of that. US consumers have become accustomed to being ripped off by realtors.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by eaenki on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:18AM (#16902068)
In Italy 5% is the norm as well.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by chii on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:29AM (#16901852)
> This in turn is relevant because your mobility becomes relevant.

you don't need to sell, just rent out the apartment when you move.

With the rental income, you can pay for a similarly priced location in the new place. Then, when the market fits, make the sale, and you've lost very little (if anything), except upkeep costs due to rental damage, etc.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by lotsofpulp on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:54AM (#16901953)
The risks of renting property are not to be understated. Unless you have significant time, cash, and drive to deal with the myriad issues tenants can have and possibly lawyers, it can easily be a net loss especially with the stress involved.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:52AM (#16901943)
You say just rent it out like renting doesn't have its own downsides like finding decent tenants, dealing with repairs, having to carry the mortgage when you have vacancies, dealing with evictions when they don't pay.

Even in a landlord friendly state it can take 2-3 months to evict someone for non payment. In some states I've heard that it can take a year.

I've been a landlord, never again.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by azeotropic on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:44AM (#16902161)
This is also the downside of renting -- the other tenants can be lousy. Banks know this and will not lend in buildings without a minimum rate of owner occupied units.

I'd guess that one of the reasons home prices in 'nice' neighborhoods are so high (or HOAs charge high dues) is a sort of signaling, similar to nuptial gifts in animals, that you have your act together and are invested in being a good neighbor.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by scarface74 on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:16AM (#16902318)
I could never see myself buying anything that's not a detached house. It seems like you have too many of the downsides of renting. When I was living in an apartment, a never once said, "if only I could buy this place and have to deal with people on each side of me".

But as far as buying in a high priced area or even renting in a high priced area, price does provide a filter.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by bryanrasmussen on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:59AM (#16902592)
renting out an apartment when you move does affect your options however because as such you will have the legal obligations of a landlord, and if not that because you have signed a deal with someone else to have those obligations on your behalf you will still need to pay those people and keep track of them.

Owning things adds friction one way or another.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by usaar333 on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:17AM (#16900696)
A few notes:

Deductability of interest (and property tax) is a lot smaller than it was before with the new tax code. On a $1M house for a married couple, you might get ~$9k back but (in CA) that's offset by the $12k (EDIT: likely non-deductable due to SALT max) property tax.

Anyway, using my own calculator (https://medium.com/@usaar33/an-up-to-date-buy-or-rent-calcul... with other defaults), the situation you describe only works if the market is offering a price/rent ratio of 14 (years) or less (which is true in much, but not all, of the country).

Regardless, there's a lot of added costs to ownership: property taxes, HOA fees, loss of leverage as you pay down mortgage, closing costs, etc.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by gnicholas on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:11AM (#16901127)
Good point about the property tax deduction becoming much less valuable in high-income tax states like CA. It used to be the case that property tax was basically built-into the cost of renting. That is, your landlord pays property tax, gets to deduct some, and then passes the pro rata share onto each of the renters. This implicit property tax created an equivalence with the property tax that you would pay if you bought a home.

But we now find ourselves in a strange situation where businesses (i.e., landlords) can deduct property taxes but individuals cannot. So it shifts the balance in favor of renting because one major cost (at least in SF/LA/etc) is no longer deductible to most individual homeowners.

I found it odd that as the tax bill was winding its way through Congress, no one asked why businesses should be allowed to deduct SALT, but individuals should not be able to. I can't think of a good reason for this, and I am a (former) corporate tax lawyer.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by cperciva on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:44AM (#16901913)
Businesses get to deduct property taxes because they're earning income from the property. Individual owner-occupiers of property aren't earning any taxable income from the property.

Yes, individuals should get to deduct their property taxes... but only after they start paying income tax on imputed dividends.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by pfarnsworth on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:34AM (#16900752)
Property tax is deductible up to $10k.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:38AM (#16900765)
eh... property tax AND state income tax.

Living in CA with near 10% marginal state income tax above $100k means that if you're buying a $1M home you're probably hitting the 10k without property tax.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by shin_lao on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:57AM (#16900847)
Did you read the article?

In the beginning: "I empower you to conduct your own analysis and make your own decision, based on your own circumstances, rooted in logic and math."

And later "Your Special Snowflake circumstances don’t change the fact that everyone is responsible for analyzing their own variables. Don’t base the biggest purchase of your life on an intellectually lazy cliche."

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by majewsky on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:57AM (#16902581)
> Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by jonbarker on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:47AM (#16903340)
Yes, and leverage can also cause more rapid destruction of personal net worth too. I could make leveraged purchases of other assets too and the examples would be the same. The no recourse thing is interesting, but it doesn't solve the problem of having to move, in which you have to either find a renter or pay a mortgage on an empty house. This seems to be effectively the same consequence.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by libertyhouse on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:39AM (#16900558)
Your 15% leveraged return is only true if you have no borrowing costs. If you had a 4% mortgage you would actually be losing 1% the first year.

A leveraged return L = (asset return - ((1- %down) x loan) rate)/%down. With a 4% mortgage that's (3% - ((1 - 20% ) x 4%))/20% = -1%

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:47AM (#16900594)
How does the utility derived from the asset factor in? There's an argument that the cost of borrowing is also paid by a renter (passed through from the landlord). The true cost of borrowing would then be interest paid minus the corresponding portion of comparable rent.

The real point of the article stands. "Run your own numbers"

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by anonu on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:46AM (#16900583)
Was just about to mention leverage. I would also add that you'll be hard pressed to get a loan at mortgage-like rates if you wanted to put your money in the stock market.

The other important point is that buying a home is still very much the "American Dream" - it is the single best way for the middle class to create wealth simply because the entire system is geared (some people would use the word rigged) for home buying. Interest tax deductions, primary residence rules, etc.. etc... are all setup for you to take out this massive loan and buy a house. If you wait long enough, it will be worth your while.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by aaavl2821 on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:15AM (#16904120)
When comparing asset classes, you should consider the returns of the underlying asset class independently, and then compare the potential returns with leverage. And also remember that leverage has a downside

In this example, stocks outperform real estate (not saying this is true, just referencing the article). So for buying a home with a mortgage to be better than buying stocks, the cost of debt must be significantly lower. Which is sort of counter intuitive -- if an asset gets better returns, shouldn't you be able to borrow against it more easily? -- but it may be the case

But the second point -- that leverage has a downside -- can hurt you here. If the distribution of housing returns is a bell curve with expected return equal to inflation, you have just as much chance of leveraging hurting you as helping you. Lots of people lost their homes in the recession, and in a lot of cases leverage made it way worse

So if you believe the numbers in the article, you shouldn't be over-leveraging your home compared to your income, and you should diversify your assets (another benefit of investing in things other than homes)

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by misja111 on Monday April 23, 2018 @03:16AM (#16901153)
You are forgetting that you don't only get the leverage of the $1M, you also have to pay the loan for the full sum of $1M.

There is a section in the article about 'opportunity cost' which covers this.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by nojvek on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:51PM (#16905723)
You don’t have to pay full. When you’re done, you can sell.

Buy for $500k, put down 100k as downpayment. Suppose it’s an interest only loan and you pay $1500 a month for all house costs. In 5 years you’ve paid 90k. If the house price doubles, you’re walking away with 410k.

Renting you’d be putting at least 2k a month, so total 120k. 190-120=70k.

For 70k in stock market to become 410k , that’s a 5.8X growth. Really hard.

In a booming market, with low interest rates, buying makes sense because of leverage.

Obviously you have to do the numbers for rent/buy scenarios and make a decision yourself. There is no right answer.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by misja111 on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:08PM (#16905875)
Yes that would be a nice profit, but to hope that your house price wil double in 5 years is pure speculation. True, you'll have a nice leverage, but when speculating the leverage goes both ways; if your house price drops 50% you'll see the other side of the leverage.

The article is not about short term speculation, it is about long term expected returns. Which tend to follow the inflation and the interest rate.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by alien_at_work on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @09:31AM (#16912387)
Can you get an interest only loan on a home in the USA?
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by wldcordeiro on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:53AM (#16900612)
Odd I read the article and got the sense that it wasn't necessarily painting one side better than the other but tried to give an overview of the full financial picture. It missed details sure but the overarching point was "run your own numbers and look at your own situation and see what makes sense for you."

> But articles like these should accurately discuss the financial upside of buying.

I think the reason it didn't is because buying is the default "good" choice in most people's eyes and even if they don't understand some of the details you mentioned (I didn't know all that myself) the goal was to open a layperson's eyes to the broader landscape.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by cko on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:47AM (#16902528)
> Generally, with 20% down you are leveraged 5:1. So even if your home is just keeping pace with inflation of 3%, you actually experience 15% growth on your investment.

In a 30-year loan, it’d be actually less than 15%. It’s 15% the first year.

Calculating the compounded return, it’s 1.03^30 * 5, then you raise all of that to the (1/30) power. You get a 8.7% compounded annual return, assuming 20% down. Then I think you subtract the 3% inflation. 5.7% is better than just tracking inflation, of course.

The return is different if it’s not owner occupied, since you need 25% down and there’s capital gains tax. But then there’s cashflow, depreciation tax shelter, etc.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by quickthrower2 on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:06AM (#16902010)
1,2,3 don't apply in Australia. Here are some things do that apply in Australia, that are advantages, but not sure about the US:

1. Primary Residence has no Capital Gains Tax 2. Can rent out Primary Residence for up to 6 years at a time and keep it exempt from CGT. 3. Pension eligibility ignores Primary Residence value. So you can own a $1m house, $0 cash and get the pension. But $100,000 cash and renting you are SOL.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by fossuser on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:17AM (#16900694)
I’m not following the leveraged point - why is a 3% increase equal to 15% growth?

In the Bay Area HOA fees plus property tax add up to nearly my existing rent even before considering a mortgage which has made me nervous to buy. I’d be banking entirely on the upward trajectory of the market for it to be a better bet than renting with roommates.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by T2_t2 on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:23AM (#16900710)
You have $100 - you buy a house worth $500. House goes up 3%, it is now worth $515. You invested $100, and have $115 in equity. Growth 15%. (that is ignoring other costs, obviously - just an attempt to explain the maths).

That is the power of leverage - you grow on the bit you own as well as the bit you owe.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by nonameisfinetoo on Monday April 23, 2018 @05:13AM (#16901782)
But the house usually does not go up 3% if you take inflation into account
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by sokoloff on Monday April 23, 2018 @07:03AM (#16902251)
Yes, but the purchase and loan are in nominal dollars. Taking GP's example numbers, a $500 house, bought with a $100 downpayment, in a house and general inflation environment of 3%pa, and an interest-only mortgage (to make the math napkin friendly)

  You start with $100.
  You buy a $500 house. $0 cash,  $500    in asset, -$400 in liability.
  A year passes.        $0 cash,  $515    in asset, -$400 in liability.
  A year passes.        $0 cash,  $530.45 in asset, -$400 in liability.
  After 30 years,       $0 cash, $1213.63 in asset, -$400 in liability.
That $100 turned in ~$814 of equity in 30 years. That equity has the purchasing power as today's $335. Even though inflation and asset prices rose by 3%, your $100 grew in purchasing power at a CAGR of 4.11%.

Contrast that with an unleveraged investment that also rose exactly with 3% inflation.

  You start with $100.
  You buy a $100 bond. $0 cash, $100    in bond.
  A year passes.       $0 cash, $103    in bond.
  A year passes.       $0 cash, $106.09 in bond.
  After 30 years,      $0 cash, $242.73 in bond.
Unsurprisingly, that $243 30 years from now has the same purchasing power as $100 today.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by skookum on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:48PM (#16905678)
Your math ignored both maintenance and property tax on the home. Let's say maintenance costs 1% a year and property tax is 3.5% a year. I'm choosing both numbers lower than likely reality to give your position an advantage and let's say that advantage covers any income tax benefit of paying the property tax. After those 30 years you have a $1214 asset that you've put a bit over $1170 into - that's the original $100 plus about $238 in maintenance and about $833 in property taxes. So your $100 investment has grown by about $44 while the stock investment in your example, after deducting 20% in cap gains, has grown by about $114.

The house by itself is a bad investment, factoring in mortgage interest makes it even worse, then factoring in not paying rent makes it significantly better. How much worse or better it is in the final analysis depends on factors that are outside of many our controls - jobs, family, local market, etc. The decision is not quite as cut & dry as many on this thread make it out to be.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @01:51AM (#16900820)
> better bet than renting with roommates

Why not both?

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by fossuser on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:02AM (#16903985)
Mostly because I can’t afford to buy anything big enough where I could have roommates (I haven’t been able to convince friends to go in on a place with me and don’t have super rich family).

I’d also have to buy far from Palo Alto which makes the commute worse and roommate finding harder.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by nilsbunger on Monday April 23, 2018 @11:47AM (#16904441)
One other key difference that makes leverage in stocks scarier: once you hit zero, you’re wiped out.

In your example, a 20% decline in stocks would wipe you out.

In principle, the same thing can happen to a home. But there are two reasons it isn’t as bad : 1) as long as you keep up the payments, the lender won’t foreclose you. 2) there’s a dampening effect in home sales - when demand softens, volume collapses. So a 20% decline doesn’t happen as often.

I owned a house in Redwood City during the 2008 collapse and ended up under-water in it for a while (negative equity). I just held on and it recovered nicely, and I sold it for a great profit in 2014. My stock broker would’ve never let me do that.

More broadly, buying is also an “option” to stay in the area long term. In a place like the SF Bay Area, where you just can’t tell what will happen next to house prices, that should be factored in as part of the value.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by erikb on Monday April 23, 2018 @08:28AM (#16902750)
There are so many buts. For instance, but this doesn't work in other countries where you can't downpay so little or where you can't get that kind of credit on a house. Or, but what happens if you default and you live in the house? And I'm not so sure they can't come after your other assets without further protection. If they can't turn that house into money then they'll certainly try, or if you did just the slightest mistake and they find out about how to leverage that.

If you don't have 100+ hitmen with guns, 5 lawyers and a politician in your back pocket always assume they come after you.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by zeusk on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @11:13AM (#16913226)
In financial speak, leverage is always the source of ruin especially when taken to extreme levels (which mortgages do).

To attain that leverage, you pay a financial cost in terms of interest which btw - can be replicated in the market for much better returns and if you know your math and derivatives - for a much lower cost of capital (equity options and index futures) in a market that is highly liquid with transaction fees as low as single digit dollars.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by kcanini on Tuesday April 24, 2018 @10:51AM (#16913029)
Leverage only matters if your home appreciates (or depreciates!) in value relative to inflation. There is a very large section of the article devoted to explaining that on average, this does not happen.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by kudokatz on Monday April 23, 2018 @09:17AM (#16903117)
> These articles always ignore leverage. Generally, with 20% down you are leveraged 5:1.

Don't forget that leverage works both ways; it magnifies the downside as well.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by garmaine on Monday April 23, 2018 @02:05AM (#16900874)
> 6x growth beats out 3x growth in stocks in the same period

Was that a typo? Average market returns are much higher than that.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @04:31AM (#16901574)
The article states that since 2009 the stock market has tripled while housing markets have doubled. I'm just reassessing that example with 5x leverage.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by lotsofpulp on Monday April 23, 2018 @06:01AM (#16901986)
I find it hard to believe if even the majority of housing markets have doubled. Economic growth mostly seems contained to a few established and up and coming cities.
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by garmaine on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:11PM (#16904700)
Yeah one flaw with the OP is that you can’t compare against average housing returns. Buying a house or condo in Silicon Valley or New York is going to out perform the average due to supply, demand, and geography.

The OP is essentially really saying buy a total stock market fund instead of REIT, which isn’t that controversial.

Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by garmaine on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:08PM (#16904663)
Oh I didn’t realize those gains were leverage adjusted. But shouldn’t you compare to trading on margin to be apples to apples?
Re:Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015) by phamilton on Monday April 23, 2018 @12:27PM (#16904873)
In this case I'd argue that apples is "what an average person would do". That's the comparison the article is making.

Millions of Americans are leveraged in their homes. Relatively few trade on margin. I think that makes it a valid comparison, even if it's not a fair comparison.