News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by dnhz on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:53PM (#16778188)
Diet soda is either on the same level of harm as seltzer, or is worse. But I believe both to be healthier than any sugared soda.

Different diet sodas use different artificial sweeteners, so diet soda cannot be treated as a single group. Diet Coke uses only aspartame as sweetener; Coke Zero combines aspartame and acesulfame K to create a more realistic taste.

I readily believe that any diet soda sweetened purely with aspartame is harmless. The chemical structure of aspartame is such that stomach acids should break it down into aspartic acid, phenylalanine, and methanol, the first two being ordinary amino acids. Methanol sounds threatening, but very little aspartame is needed to sweeten a beverage. I thus have no problem drinking diet coke.

What's more unclear is whether the sugar-like taste of artificial sweeteners affect the body's blood sugar regulation.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by e40 on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:20PM (#16778357)
Diet soda is either on the same level of harm as seltzer, or is worse.

What's wrong with seltzer?

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by StavrosK on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:46PM (#16778761)
Nothing.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by scottie_m on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:51PM (#16778785)
Not true, any carbonated beverage is acidic and not so great for your teeth. As with most things moderation is the way to go, but still, carbonated beverages are decidedly not good for you.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by corysama on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:04PM (#16778834)
At what point is the only thing left to be decidedly good for you plain water?

I wonder what is the pH of glass of carbonated water with a squeeze of lime?

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by scottie_m on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:13PM (#16778855)
That’s a good question, and if you’ll permit me, I’ll give the answer in two parts. The acidity of seltzer is roughly the acidity of orange juice, so a squirt of lime in your water is just nowhere close. It is also true that most of what we should be drinking is water. I realize that’s not the first choice for people raised on juice, milk, and soda, but it’s certainly the most healthy.

Remember that I mentioned moderation though? A glass or two of OJ, lemonade, tea, coffee, or seltzer a day isn’t going to materially impact your health assuming you’re not diabetic, and practice good oral hygiene. There are also many worse things for your teeth than seltzer, such as potato chips, and poor oral hygiene. If most of what you’re drinking is water, don’t sweat the glass or two of something other than water. Unfortunately too many poeple drink very little unadulterated water, and it does impact their health.

Moderation is the key.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by davidwihl on Friday April 06, 2018 @11:02PM (#16779172)
Why are potato chips bad for your teeth? They are mostly oil and salt.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by jdminhbg on Friday April 06, 2018 @11:20PM (#16779213)
They’re mostly starch, which the enzymes in your mouth convert to sugar.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by rleigh on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:48AM (#16780090)
It's not what they are made of, it's the effect they have. Bits get stuck between your teeth and gums, and this encourages bacteria to grow and establish biofilms, which once established can start causing tooth decay. Long term, they can cause a lot of damage.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by blawson on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:21AM (#16779347)
They get stuck in between, and in your gums, in a way that (obviously) liquids don’t.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by minhaz23 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:14AM (#16780149)
Can you neutralize the harm by drinking through a straw?
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by Laforet on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:11AM (#16779888)
Carbonated water typically have a pH around 4, adding lime juice may reduce it slightly further, but not by a huge margin.

Acidity of most beverages on its own is usually not problematic as saliva (buffered at 6.5 pH) rapidly restores normal pH. It does become an issue if the salivary glands are damaged (as in the case of meth users) or stomach acid comes into contact with teeth.(severe acid reflux or bulimia) However these cannot be considered normal.

The number one cause of dental cavities is always sugar.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by brandon272 on Friday April 06, 2018 @11:40PM (#16779261)
Unfortunately, not even plain water is uncontroversial.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by B1FF_PSUVM on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:22AM (#16780167)
He's not wrong, matter of quantity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

('Notable cases' include recorded death.)

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by candiodari on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:03AM (#16781013)
Well obviously any lifeform has water problems. Like any other lifeform, our life depends on remaining within osmotic balance with whatever we drink and eat.

That said, the amount of ways your body adapts to osmotic balance problems is in the dozens, so poisoning your body with water, while possible, is hard to the tune of it requires something like drinking 20 liters of water in less than an hour. I mean, it seems to be possible but I cannot imagine succeeding at that even if I'm trying. That's 2 full buckets (and that's just LD50, as in, if you're >70kg it's more than that).

There is an exception: purified water. You cannot drink mineral-poor* or distillated water safely in even small quantities. Why not ? Because that will locally, suddenly and very strongly disrupt the osmotic balance in what you bring it into contact with. It probably not kill you (not without repeated application), but it may cause serious issues in your mouth, throat and stomach. It should also not be used to make coffee or tea and drunk, that merely lessens the effect it doesn't stop it.

* mineral-poor water is something used in chemical and medical laboratories

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by ScottBurson on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:29PM (#16782017)
It may be hard to imagine, but it has happened: http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan/14/local/me-water14
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by brandon272 on Monday April 09, 2018 @12:11AM (#16790304)
I was thinking of things like fluoride, water chlorination, etc. It's also possible to drink water that is "too filtered" and doesn't have enough minerals in it which can apparently cause issues.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by StavrosK on Saturday April 07, 2018 @07:14AM (#16780277)
Yeah but that's way way past the point where it's very uncomfortable to drink more water. It's not something that can happen to you without warning (or while you're enjoying the process).
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by verbify on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:20AM (#16780413)
Anecdote: My mother got quite sick while drinking a huge amount of water in preparation for a religious 26 hour fast.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by StavrosK on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:30AM (#16780449)
Was she comfortable drinking that amount, or was she forcing herself to?
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by candiodari on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:53AM (#16780957)
Keep in mind that "acidic" should be kept in perspective. Carbonated beverages:

More acidic than: water milk tea ice tea beer

About that same as: coffee (coffee with milk, however, is essentially not acidic) wine (depends a bit on the kind of wine, sweet wine is less acidic) orange juice (from sweet oranges, the sour ones are usually less acidic)

Less acidic than: lemon juice (coke is a LOT less acidic than lemon juice)* grape juice (esp. when adding lemon juice for more sweetener) lime juice things like "lemon ice tea" (and of course actual tea with lemon in it. It depends on how much lemon. If you add enough lemon to allow for much additional sweetness, it will be a lot more acidic than carbonated beverages)

With fruit things can vary. Apparently the rule is, the sweeter, the more acidic (the opposite of what your tastebuds will tell you, although it's really more a case of if you taste sweetness you ignore sourness. Sweet taste doesn't necessarily mean something is acidic, obviously, but (from a certain level) it does mean you won't notice at all whether something is acidic or not, or how much).

If you're worried about this, even a small sip of milk will eliminate any acidity in your mouth in seconds (milliseconds actually).

* I've heard of medical cases where people managed to dissolve their stomach lining by drinking pure lemon juice (about 1.5 liter), and died due to the stomach juices coming into the abdominal cavity. Yes, that's right, your stomach lining, specifically designed to be able to handle strong acidity, cannot deal with lemon juice.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by wbkang on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:30PM (#16778922)
Pretty sure your teeth can rebuild the top layers fine. I think it's really far from decidedly bad for you? By that token plain water is also bad if not taken in moderation because it can kill you.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by scottie_m on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:51PM (#16778978)
So, tooth enamel can be removed mechanically (overbrushing, injury...), but more typically it’s demineralized and breaks down. In the first case you’re shit out of luck, you’re unable to make new enamel. The good news is that deminerlized enamel can be restored if it’s not too far gone, which is what fluoride is trying to do in your toothpaste.

So no, there is a rebuilding process, but the kind of damage done by acidic substances (including the excretions of bacteria) can sometimes be reversed to some extent. The trend is usually erosion however, and moderate intake of something like seltzer or soda is at least an order of magnitude less than straight water. In addition, while water toxicity is a thing, you’d have to overcome a pretty strong urge to vomit. Short of that, water is doing you no harm, and will never contribute to the erosion of your dental enamel.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by fouc on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:19AM (#16779625)
There's a new fluoride replacement called novamine that is apparently significantly better at re-mineralizing teeth.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by Laforet on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:25AM (#16779921)
Novamin is technically a desensitising agent by blocking tubules on exposed dentin (boney tissue below enamel). There is some evidence suggesting it may aid remineralisation in combination with fluoride, however it is far from conclusive.

A number of toothpaste brands in Japan claims to remineralise teeth with a hydroxyapatite based formula but the results are yet to be confirmed.

Dentists have been using zinc oxide gels and other material to seal exposed dentin but the results are mixed and eventually the filling will fail. Once cavities reach a certain size not much can be done about it.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by cowmix on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:48PM (#16778969)
I've been conducting an informal science experiment with my family for the past 20 years. My wife, my older son (19), my younger son (15) and I have ONLY drink carbonated water. Period. Every drink, every meal.

My kids have no cavities / perfect teeth. My wife and I, by that age range, had tons of cavities.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by koolba on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:01PM (#16779007)
Did you drink well or city water as a child? The fluoride in the water could be a factor as well.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by firebones on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:20AM (#16779629)
In a family with radically diverse genetics, and radically diverse oral health outcomes seemingly independent of oral care: congratulations on hitting the genetic lottery!
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by cowmix on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:03AM (#16780737)
We just drink soda water.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by koolba on Saturday April 07, 2018 @10:24AM (#16780818)
Sure but do you get it in a can/bottle or make it yourself? The latter done with public tap water would still contain fluoride.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by cowmix on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:21PM (#16781966)
Safeway Refreshe. For 19 years.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by cm2012 on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:19PM (#16779059)
When my close friend got bariatric surgery, the doctors told him the carbonatiob would expand his stomach much faster and so seltzer was forbidden forever. Might also apply to all stomachs.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by ztjio on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:51AM (#16779970)
This means nothing for a normal person. Stomachs are massively elastic under normal circumstances.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by jon_richards on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:49AM (#16780091)
Not quite nothing, there's a reason people get their stomachs stapled.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by khedoros1 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:55PM (#16782916)
Reading the thread, the comment you responded to was using "normal person" as a contrast against someone who had undergone bariatric surgery (which stomach stapling is a variety of).
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by mythBustan on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:36AM (#16779665)
There are videos that show that most of the carbonation effervesces in your esophagus and mouth, and most of the carbonation is gone by the time it reaches your stomach.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by threepipeproblm on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:37AM (#16780642)
There are numerous studies showing positive effects of seltzer, and a few suggesting negative effects. But in what world can we compare this to diet soda?
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by e40 on Sunday April 08, 2018 @10:55AM (#16786361)
Please link to the studies.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by shirakawasuna on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:16PM (#16779047)
Aspartame has been tested like crazy and does not have any known dramatic effects on health. As you mentioned, it's very sweet per molecule, much sweeter than most other artificial / sugary sweeteners, and so you don't have to use very much.

Some other artificial sweeteners, like saccharin, aren't nearly as sweet per molecule, and you have to add a lot to get the desired effect. They also have an apparent effect on glucose intolerance related to one's gut biome, and it's not due to the taste - you can transfer the biome alone between mice and get a similar impact.

Example source: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13793

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by totony on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:13PM (#16782643)
I remember researching this topic in a biochem class. Aspartame turned out to be the artificial sweetener with the most potential side effects i studied.

E.g. it seems to affect brain functioning IIRC

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by cpncrunch on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:15PM (#16778315)
>diet soda sweetened purely with aspartame is harmless

You also have to consider other additives in the soda, such as acids that can damage your teeth, and the caffeine in diet coke.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by salvar on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:59AM (#16779989)
True, and even if you've removed everything and are left with water, you have to consider the possibility of drinking too much water.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by craftyguy on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:18PM (#16778339)
> stomach acids should break it down

"should", but it's really hard to find reliable information as to what actually happens since the internet is filled with FUD websites claiming aspartame gave their brother/grandma/cat/chair cancer.

> Methanol sounds threatening, but very little aspartame is needed to sweeten a beverage

Methanol is very toxic to humans, so that's a good thing.

> What's more unclear is whether the sugar-like taste of artificial sweeteners affect the body's blood sugar regulation.

Why would it?

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by selectodude on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:39PM (#16778463)
The only legitimate health risk I can ever find from criticisms of diet soda is that due to it being sweet and delicious it might make you eat more and then you’ll get fat. Which is a legitimate issue but more of a personal problem than a problem with diet soda in and of itself.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by astura on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:41PM (#16779111)
If a substance significantly alters the metabolism of it's users that's not a "personal problem," it's a "side effect."
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by smallnamespace on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:30PM (#16778919)
> it's really hard to find reliable information as to what actually happens since the internet is filled with FUD websites claiming aspartame gave their brother/grandma/cat/chair cancer.

The burden of proof should probably be on the side of those asserting safety of novel food components, and if that means waiting a full generation for the data to come in, so be it (note that animal tests don't really tell us enough, because metabolism doesn't seem that well conserved between species; there are plenty of things that humans can eat safely that animals can't and vice versa)

Human metabolism and our food has coevolved over thousands of years, and we have evidence in the fossil record that shifts in diet (e.g. agriculture, pastoralism) had negative impacts on human health (worse teeth, shorter, weaker bones) until either our genomes or microbiomes adjusted.

If you decide to consume large quantities of novel ingredients in combinations that no humans have ever eaten before in our evolutionary history, then sure, it may turn out just fine—but metabolism is an intricate dance and there are a lot of ways to screw it up.

"Eat food, not too much, mostly plants." and "Don't eat anything your great grandmother wouldn't recognize as food." seem like sensible advice for people who can afford to follow it [1].

[1] https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for...

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by conradev on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:40PM (#16779106)
> and if that means waiting a full generation for the data to come in, so be it

I think we're pretty close to having a full generation's worth of data, considering it was approved by the FDA in 1981.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by sameyolo on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:39AM (#16779385)
I'm not particularly young and my great grandmother lived into the mid-90s. This would amusingly give me significant leeway. In my own quest to solve my stomach ailments I permanently quit soda and juices, switching to carbonated water. Helped tremendously.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by TheSpiceIsLife on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:11PM (#16778600)
> Why would it?

I believe the theory goes something like: the taste of sweetness causes changes in the body in preparation for a carbohydrate load.

How much truth there is in this claim is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by adrianmonk on Saturday April 07, 2018 @02:05AM (#16779596)
Well, merely swishing liquids with carbohydrates around in your mouth and the spitting it out can increase athletic performance in athletic activities lasting over 1 hour!

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3916844/ :

> Carbohydrate (CHO) mouth rinse is defined as a CHO fluid distribution around the mouth for 5 to 10 s with subsequent expulsion by spitting. The utilization of either a low-concentrated 6.0% to 6.4% glucose or partially hydrolyzed maltodextrin are the most common CHO used, with the latter being colorless and tasteless when dissolved in water.

...

> CHO mouth rinse seems to improve performance during moderate- to high-intensity exercise (~60% to 75% VO2max), of at least 1 h duration. It is probable that the mechanism involved in this improvement may not be metabolic but neural, via oral CHO receptors (glucose and maltodextrin) that activate brain regions related to the sensation of reward and pleasure.

Note that it apparently isn't taste that is having the effect, as (according to this paper) maltodextrin, when dissolved in water, doesn't have a taste. So apparently there's some mechanism other than either ingestion (metabolic) or taste.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by cimmanom on Saturday April 07, 2018 @08:31AM (#16780452)
I thought that there had been studies that proved insulin spikes in response to sweet flavors even without caloric content? Not that I have links to them on hand.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:53PM (#16782904)
Fairly certain I have, at least, seen the headlines.

I meant my last line not as a disputation against, but only as an indicator that I was, at the time, too lazy to provide references.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by cimmanom on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:53PM (#16783224)
Ah, yes. Sometimes I'm amused by the expectation of HN readers that anyone commenting will have kept an exhaustive bibliography of everything they've ever read.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by creep on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:23AM (#16779351)
:(
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by aidenn0 on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:09PM (#16778588)
I'm not aware of human studies, but rodent studies have shown increased glucose intolerance when fed artificial sweeteners.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by Fnoord on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:03PM (#16781581)
Which artificial sweeteners? Do you have a link to the study?
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by aidenn0 on Monday April 09, 2018 @11:44AM (#16793988)
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by Nux on Saturday April 07, 2018 @04:45AM (#16779962)
They do affect the blood sugar levels, all the sweetners do, with Stevia having the least impact.

At least according to a BBC documentary http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/51yxBQyvqpNYPT3PF0L...

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by threepipeproblm on Saturday April 07, 2018 @09:36AM (#16780638)
>> What's more unclear is whether the sugar-like taste of artificial sweeteners affect the body's blood sugar regulation.

How is this unclear... every study I've seen shows that artificial sweeteners are similarly obesogenic to actual sugar. Some of them also spike blood sugar quite a bit.

Several studies have also showed that artificial sweeteners change gut bacteria. One study I can't find right now showed a single dose of sucralose significantly changed gut bacteria composition. Here is an article about this concept from Sci Am https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/artificial-sweete...

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by aidenn0 on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:10PM (#16778596)
Aren't diet sodas much more acidic than seltzer? That could affect dental health certainly (but almost certainly less than sugared soda).
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by Fnoord on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:04PM (#16781587)
Seltzer affects dental health.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by aidenn0 on Monday April 09, 2018 @12:34PM (#16794523)
I meant the increased acidity of diet soda would have different affects on dental health compared to seltzer.
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by JoshMnem on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:36PM (#16779102)
> I readily believe that any diet soda sweetened purely with aspartame is harmless. The chemical structure of aspartame is such that stomach acids should break it down into aspartic acid, phenylalanine, and methanol, the first two being ordinary amino acids.

I think the article is saying that it isn't that simple, because even small amounts of certain additives can change the microbiome.

More articles:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/09/17/349270927/di...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/artificial-sweete...

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by vonmoltke on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:08PM (#16778584)
> What's more unclear is whether the sugar-like taste of artificial sweeteners affect the body's blood sugar regulation.

I would like to know what feedback path could possibly exist to enable this.

Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by scythe on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:22PM (#16778653)
Re:Germs That Love Diet Soda by simonebrunozzi on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:38PM (#16778940)
What I've heard from a friend that supposedly knows a lot about chemistry and physics is that aspartame is very bad for your health. Unfortunately I have no other data point, but... Anyone else able to shed some light on whether aspartame is good or not?