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Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by coffeemug on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:48AM (#16655417)
This article is great.

The usual advice is "just treat disabled people as people" but it isn't super useful because humans don't "naturally" treat anyone like anyone. Much of our social interaction is cultural and learned. So it's extremely helpful to give specific, actionable advice ("just tell your child to wave").

I have to admit to occasionally looking away, or doing other things mentioned in the article. It's not because I think disabled people are "worse" or because I'm an asshole. It's because I get a momentary "shit, this isn't automatic, what do I do" feeling, and by the time I arrive at a conscious decision of what to do a few moments later it's too late.

There is a lot of shaming of people that I think would be much better replaced with education. Most people aren't assholes. They just don't automatically know what to do. We can fix it by giving people specific actionable norms.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by toxican on Friday March 23, 2018 @09:22AM (#16657775)
For me it's usually an attempt to not come across as staring. A lot of people grow up hearing "don't stare!" when it comes to people who look different because it's rude. So it's really hard for me to shake that. I don't look away because I'm weirded out by a person or because I think less of them. It's because I don't want my initial glance to be mistaken a stare. It's ironic that apparently that can come across as rude as well. Then again I'm socially awkward and struggle to make eye-contact with non-disabled folks just as much.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by gowld on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:14PM (#16661025)
Next time you're caught "maybe staring", try this: Smile or nod and then look away, instead of rushing to look away. You might be surprised how many smiles and nods you get back and return, and realize that most people are happy to have a moment of mutual acknowledgement.

The key is to consciously acknowledge that you were looking at someone, and realize that you are forced to "justify" your look -- was it innocent and friendly, or creepy and rude? If it was innocent and friendly, then commit to it! If was creepy and rude, you messed up, do better next time.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by PJDK on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:54PM (#16661440)
If someone did this to me, I'd probably smile and nod back. But I'd also spend the rest of the day confused and worried why I couldn't remember who the person was who greeted me like a passing acquaintance.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by eagsalazar2 on Friday March 23, 2018 @03:14PM (#16661638)
Lean into that uneasiness. In addition to a nod, give them a long meaningful wink also. Then instead of an awkward accident, you have a fun puzzle for everyone think about for years afterward. Practice this at bars when you accidentally make eye contact with someone and be at peace with the beautiful chaos that will 100% ensue.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by gowld on Friday March 23, 2018 @03:45PM (#16661953)
That's OK. Maybe you'll see them again next time you go around the same way, and you'll remember this time, and you'll start building a relationship with your neighbor.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by smoyer on Friday March 23, 2018 @07:26AM (#16656900)
My son has trisomy-21 (Down Syndrome) and I think you're whole post misses a big point. You have a huge amount in common with a severely disabled individual (most of your genes in fact). And all it really takes is to treat them like you would anyone else their age.

If you're running at a park and ignoring all the kids on the playground, don't stop to greet (or gawk at) a disabled child. If you're greeting all the kids at Sunday school, don't skip over them (or switch to baby-talk just for them).

So if you default to treating them like any other human, they'll be happy and you'll make their parents happy. And at this point, parents will happily let you know if there are any specific ways to interact with their child.

Note: Some kids have aural sensitivities ... don't yell at them like their deaf during your first interaction. I usually start with a voice slightly lower than my regular speaking volume.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by jasallen on Friday March 23, 2018 @08:35AM (#16657334)
In fact your whole post misses the grandparent post's point. Their point was that they _absolutely intend to do_ what you just said. However, very little of what we do as humans in conscious decisions. Most of it is autonomic pattern response.

Forgetting disabilities for a moment: if you are not used to being around _children_ then the first time you are surrounded by them you'll act completely weird. Because they are different than you're usual pattern. With sufficient exposure you adapt, you integrate that slight variation into the pattern and all is well. For some patterns you act differently (you act different for children than adults) for some you won't act differently (for most disabled children you act the same as for other children) but in all cases exposure is the key because we humans are imperfect pattern recognition machines.

Also though, some people are just assholes. I mean don't baby talk to anyone ever.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by gnode on Friday March 23, 2018 @11:53AM (#16659322)
People don't treat others all alike. We naturally interact with people of different genders, ages, and in different contexts differently, and continually pick up social cues (such as how loud or forward someone is) and change our behaviour with regard to the situation. When people are unfamiliar with the signals they perceive from others, this usually causes them anxiety. Clearly, with your experience of interacting with disabled people, you've become accustomed to it; you know to speak with a quieter voice for instance. Most people do not have much such experience, and feel uncomfortable because of it.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by pc86 on Friday March 23, 2018 @08:41AM (#16657392)
> I usually start with a voice slightly lower than my regular speaking volume

Which goes against your entire point, doesn't it?

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by stordoff on Friday March 23, 2018 @10:05PM (#16664344)
> treat them like you would anyone else their age.

> Some kids have aural sensitivities [...] I usually start with a voice slightly lower than my regular speaking volume.

OP says to treat people like you would anyone of that age. I take that to mean that he speaks to children in a slightly lower voice than he would older people, regardless of (perceived) disabilities or lack thereof.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by tudelo on Friday March 23, 2018 @09:12AM (#16657665)
Well, maybe they mean when talking to children. That does not.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by magic_beans on Friday March 23, 2018 @10:09AM (#16658293)
No, it doesn’t.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by tw1010 on Friday March 23, 2018 @04:56AM (#16656213)
This is such an important point. The world would be a wonderful place if we defaulted to feeling an enthusiastic opportunity to pedagogically and patiently teach people something when we notice they're naive about it (instead of shaming or dismissing them as stupid).
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by reificator on Friday March 23, 2018 @11:26AM (#16659077)
There's always a relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1053/
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by djanogo on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:13PM (#16659562)
"..social interaction is cultural and learned.."

or may be, just may be we are genetically programmed to avoid things which starts uncomfortable thought process.

"They just don't automatically know what to do"

This might not socially acceptable thing to say out loud, may be, people don't have _enough_ time or inclination to imagine other people's condition in everyday life.

Like you remembered some cases where you looked away, there might be more cases where you didn't even notice that somebody disabled was around you.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by LordKano on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:59PM (#16660837)
Dogs will naturally break away from your gaze if they're not sure they could take you in a physical confrontation.

That's not cultural.

Some things are just built into us, not that we don't have the power to override them through the application of will but they didn't just appear out of nowhere.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by chopete on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:55PM (#16660790)
Your comment is a great follow up to the article. I am copying(with slight modifications) a few actions highlighted in the article.

>> Staring isn't staring if you're smiling. Or waving. Or if you say hi. Adults- do stare but do it smilingly or say hi

>> Just tell your child to wave.

>> And don't worry if he(your child) asks an awkward question, like, "Can't she talk?" That's a welcome chance for us to introduce Esprit.

>> Just ask a disabled child's parents whether the planned activity will work for their son or daughter. If an adjustment is needed we can figure it out together.

>> A nuisance like leaving a picnic early is normal (for parents with disabilities), so don't make a big deal out of an annoyance with a portent-filled comment like, "I don't know how you do it."

>> They desire the human contact that most of us take for granted. So increase your awareness, by reaching out to one of them.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by gowld on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:17PM (#16661056)
And like most things, the cure for fear is exposure. The more time you spend with disabled/diverse/different people, the more natural it will feel to you, and the less weirdly you will act. This goes for your encounters with people with visible disabilities and differences, mental disabilities and differences, racial differences, linguistic differences, religious differences. . .
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by muzani on Friday March 23, 2018 @11:53AM (#16659332)
This brings up an interesting insight that it's not realistic to treat "people as people". A lot of people have trouble interacting with the opposite sex. Or even with someone outside their friend circle. In an Asian village, people might freeze on meeting someone black or white.

They're not really assholes, but they get confused on how to act and may overcompensate. Is it appropriate to smile at a coworker of the opposite sex? Or to instant message them about work late at night? This can result in a lot of strange reactions.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by DoreenMichele on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:38PM (#16660601)
Is it appropriate to smile at a coworker of the opposite sex? Or to instant message them about work late at night?

It depends on your intent. If you are trying to be a creep and looking for "innocuous" ways to start moving in on an intended victim, then, no. If you are a decent human being with genuine respect for other people who isn't up to anything creepy, it's totes fine.

In fact, you should not be treating members of the opposite sex as "off limits" socially merely for being the opposite sex. This is a form of sexism and it insidiously closes a lot of doors.

So just be really honest with yourself as to why you are smiling at them or messaging them and if the answer is "I have plans that amount to sexual harassment," yeah, no. If the answer is "They are a coworker and that's how I interact with same sex coworkers," go right ahead. You're fine.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by gowld on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:20PM (#16661087)
You are absolutely right in principle, but following your advice requires a lot of introspection and self-awareness, but the reality is most of our actions are half-conscious at best. The challenge is in how to improve our automatic behaviors, and how to trust that they are reasonable.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by DoreenMichele on Friday March 23, 2018 @03:34PM (#16661838)
It's fine if you just like the person as a human being and are reacting in the moment. It isn't necessary to know ahead of time where this is going. We often don't. Life happens.

But the point at which you realize that you are a. Attracted and b. Trying to maneuver the person -- This is the point at which you need to have a heart to heart with your conscience. If you realize you want them and you don't really care if the feeling is mutual, then you are a creep. (The generic "you", not you the person I am speaking to at this moment.)

People do sometimes meet on the job, date, fall in love and get married. That can happen if both parties are equally aware of the potential pitfalls and both parties are equally looking out for the welfare of both people.

What separates a creep from an ordinary person who might happen to stumble into romance on the job is that creeps a. Make conscious and intentional plans aimed at a particular outcome and b. They do so with callous disregard for the other party.

Decent human beings who realize they have slippery sloped themselves into an awkward situation that might harm another start working to figure out how to avoid said harm. They don't have to be omniscient geniuses who can predict it ahead of time. They just have to decide to make other choices once the problem space becomes apparent.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by gowld on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:19PM (#16661074)
Life is full of mistakes. Try to be your best; forgive your past self; learn from your experiences; keep practicing.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by draugadrotten on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:01PM (#16659418)
Just to be clear, in case there are people actually wondering:

> Is it appropriate to smile at a coworker of the opposite sex? Or to instant message them about work late at night?

No. And no-no.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by kimdcmason on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:09PM (#16659523)
Wat? You just stated that it's inappropriate to smile at a co-worker of the opposite sex.

That's sufficiently bizarre that I assume you misread the original post... (I'm applying Occam's razor).

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by Johnny555 on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:44PM (#16660669)
So I need to treat coworkers of the opposite sex and not smile at them? I can only smile to workers of the same sex? Isn't that a form of harassment? Can't I just treat all coworkers the same regardless of gender, sexual identity, race, etc?

Likewise, if the on-call engineer is female, I'm going to text or even call her late at night if I need her help.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by jakebasile on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:07PM (#16659503)
I agree about messaging someone of any gender about work at night (without prior agreement), but why would it be wrong to smile at a coworker no matter who they are?
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by hermitdev on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:30PM (#16660512)
I disagree about messaging coworkers at night. I do it occasionally. Sometimes it's about something humorous, instructional or enlightening that I stumbled on while at home. Other times, it's serious and about work. I've had very productive and candid discussions with my CEO at 11pm. If I have something useful to share, I want to do it while I remember about it, instead of trying to remember the next day.

Thing is, when I randomly message someone at night, I don't expect a response, nor do I view my recipient unfavorably if they don't respond until morning or at all. Of course, it's different if the entire team is working late, but that's only happened a few times in the past 2 years I've been at my current company.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by Angostura on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:57PM (#16660131)
I'm going to carry on smiling at people, irrespective of gender. Sorry.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by goatlover on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:50PM (#16660049)
WTF? You can't smile at a coworker of the opposite sex? Since when? They smile at me often enough. It's a smile, which is a form of acknowledgment.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by wruza on Friday March 23, 2018 @01:33PM (#16660541)
So many different rules to behave. I just gave up and react to everything the way I am. If I’m not good enough, then at least it’s honest and as is.
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by jogjayr on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:46PM (#16661353)
I don't think there's anything wrong about instant messaging anyone on a work-approved platform, about work, at any time of day. Expecting a real-time response is unrealistic though.
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Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by stordoff on Friday March 23, 2018 @04:10AM (#16655994)
If your citation is intended to suggest your usage of "retarded" is reasonable, you may wish to read further down the page:

> The Arc called the portrayal [of a man with an intellectual disability] "offensive" and also objected to the use of the words "retard", "moron", and "imbecile" throughout the movie. [...] the Arc continued to criticize the film as containing hate speech, promoting offensive stereotypes of people with intellectual disabilities, and being offensive to people with disabilities and their families.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by Freak_NL on Friday March 23, 2018 @04:50AM (#16656187)
Goldenkey might be referring to the euphemism treadmill mentioned in the summary of that article; the never-ending cycle of replacing neutral words for a group of people when they have (inevitably) shifted in meaning to a pejorative (like 'imbecile' and 'retard').
Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by gowld on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:23PM (#16661124)
"a retard" is different from "retarded person".

Tropic Thunder mocked retarded people, it didn't use those terms in neutral usage.

Tropic Thunder was all about putting offensive stereotype behind a layer of indirection ("actors playing actors playing X", and used that layer to dodge criticism, but it's a complex scenario to try to untangle. Much of the entertainment value that the audiences perceived was in "making fun of X", not "making fun of actors playing X"

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by stordoff on Friday March 23, 2018 @10:01PM (#16664330)
From Arc's broader statements made at the time, I'm not sure they would agree with your first statement, or agree that there _is_ a neutral usage:

> “In our culture, `retard’ and `retarded’ carry a lot of baggage from the days when people were institutionalized in large state facilities,” [...] They don’t deserve to be treated in such a dehumanizing way.”

> Leaving aside the movie’s offensiveness or lack thereof, the uproar also serves to highlight the evolving standards of acceptable terminology [...] “Adults with retardation self-advocated. They clearly told us that the use of the word `retarded’ was very hurtful.

https://www.dailynews.com/2008/08/13/some-give-tropic-thunde...

FWIW, I don't necessarily agree with them in totality -- I have various disabilities and have zero issue with "disabled person" or "the disabled" (unlike the linked article) -- but linking to Arc doesn't appear to support the use of "retarded", even where the intent is neutral.

Re:My daughter's disabled. Please don't look away from her by gowld on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:08PM (#16693661)
Thanks for clarifying. Fun fact, in the years since "person-centered language" ("person with X") has now also fallen to the euphemism treadmill, as modern advocates say it stigmatizes the disability X by separating from the person as a modification, instead of accepting it as part of a respected whole person.