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Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by andrewstuart on Thursday March 22, 2018 @03:37PM (#16651948)
I'm sorry but if your resume shows you've never spent more than 12 months in a job over the past X years then I pretty much drop it.

I don't really care why your career has played like that.

At best, you are a an awesome employee who won't stay with them more than your "frequency period".

At worst, you get discovered and fired within your frequency period.

Especially true for senior roles. Team lead for 5 months? Drop the resume.

Not always true, but in general terms if you are a great employee then you tend to hang around.

I know these are generalisations but when I am sitting there reading 300 resumes in a row and trying to work out who is going to get through an employers gruelling assessment process then if you hop jobs then it's just not worth the effort to even try to assess you.

In software development, there is a co-investment between employer and employee in which time spent in a job tends to result an an increase of value through knowledge of the systems and therefore productivity. Job hoppers don't accumulate such value, and leaving early removes that value from the employers side of the relationship.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by pbreit on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:02PM (#16652184)
I think the blog post was written specifically for you. Maybe you're wrong?

Specifically with job-hoppers, I've found that they can hit the ground running very fast and make solid contributions in compressed time-frames. The best ones cherry pick the best practices from a more diverse set of previous employers.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by jjeaff on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:12PM (#16652265)
Sure, maybe they are good at getting right to work. But then they are gone and all that institutional knowledge goes with them and you have to start over with someone else.

There is a lot of value to having long term employees that have been around and know what is going on.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by lwhalen on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:22PM (#16652372)
This is why a documentation culture is so very important. Even on the best terms, the average tenure of a tech employee is two years. That's just today's economic reality. As a leader, a project should not be considered 'done' until its documented to such a level that a well-meaning new employee can come in, read the docs, and be mostly up to speed with at least the daily 'care-and-feeding' tasks and the top 5 failure modes.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by sidlls on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:22PM (#16652374)
There is a lot of risk of long term employees entrenching bad practices by leveraging their political clout due to seniority. In some ways that's worse than the scenario you describe.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by x1798DE on Thursday March 22, 2018 @06:50PM (#16653459)
Shouldn't this argue for everyone having long tenures, since it's unlikely you'll actively fire competent employees just because they started at their job too long and got too well trusted.

Having a few long term employees and a bunch of short term ones is the worst case scenario, since it only accentuates the disparity in company-specific reputation and clout.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by jnsaff2 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:20PM (#16652352)
Well in the UK as a DevOps my role is in such a high demand that many workers (including me) only take contract roles as they pay roughly double than permanent. But as a contractor my CV is going to be 3 months, 6 months, 12 months and not years at a place.

This is how it is here and personally I think I have accelerated experience accumulation as every contract excercises a different set of my skills.

Maybe other markets don’t have a contracting culture but I don’t think my CV should automatically be trashed for having short but concentrated employers.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by jgh on Thursday March 22, 2018 @03:51PM (#16652063)
I see where you're coming from but OTOH the path to increase your pay in the tech industry seems to be switching companies. It's not like you're going to see a 10-20% raise every year staying with the same company. Obviously this usually only works for a finite number of years at the beginning of your career.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by rimliu on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:47PM (#16653021)
Exactly. If it goes both ways then it is also on the company to retain the employee.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by citizens on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:06PM (#16652214)
I think this is tough for both sides.

I work with early stage companies, and those companies don't always exist a year. I've also worked with companies (for multiple years) that were bought & sold a few times, so two employment stints can easily look like five.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by extra88 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:46PM (#16652558)
> companies (for multiple years) that were bought & sold a few times, so two employment stints can easily look like five

You can make it clear on your own resume that corporate changes differ from changes in your role.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by paulddraper on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:28PM (#16652425)
> those companies don't always exist a year

You're not necessarily at fault for that, but being part of multiple failed businesses would probably not earn you any bonus points.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by lainga on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:09PM (#16652241)
What if I was part of a university co-op program where I work for 4-8 months at a time between academic terms (which I am) ? I've left an interview where I could hear the CTO say "so why was he fired after 4 months?" as I walked out the door.

I understand you have 300 resumes, though -- should I put Co-op or Internship in big red letters before the item?

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by lucozade on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:19PM (#16652339)
Just make the heading on the section be “4 month internship at blah”. That should be fine.

You may have met a CTO that wasn’t paying attention but that’s not the problem here. Having short periods of work while you’re studying is fine.

Flipping more than a couple of full time jobs is a big red flag. You need a really good reason.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by chadash on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:24PM (#16652385)
Agree with you. Caveat is that a "couple" can vary based on the length of your career. If you have been working for 20 years and in that time, you had 3 jobs that you only held for 6 months, I'd look at that very differently than someone with a shorter career span.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by lucozade on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:19PM (#16652801)
That’s fair. It’s the narrative that counts. If you look like you’re a good investment then you might be asked to explain but, at least, you’ll probably have the opportunity.

If your history says risk then you need something special to counteract it or you won’t get the chance.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by andrewstuart on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:12PM (#16652260)
Any reasonable or legitimate circumstance for short job periods can be explained with a well written resume, but yes it should be extremely clear one way or another that you aren't dropping into a series of short jobs and either getting fired or leaving for better job offers.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by nulagrithom on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:18PM (#16652334)
This runs counter to your initial statement: "I don't really care why your career has played like that."

Which is probably why he's had such a hard time explaining it in the first place. Lots of people aren't going to take the time to actually read and understand the situation.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by lainga on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:24PM (#16652384)
This is my experience, yes. I suspect many hiring staff look over the job titles and snap onto company/dates employed -- and never see the word "co-op". Thus my idea.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by cakes on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:36PM (#16652464)
Having attended a university that was coop-based, I've had this discussion (or did when it was more relevant) and the key truly is "a well written resume" (plenty of coop positions come and go so...)

Often I would have conversations with people about resumes where they had problems and those problems would be things like: * How long is your resume...? (way too long, often) * Can you drop/compress any positions? (keep recent/relevant) * Instead of "Employment", can you say "Coop Experience"? for the section? * etc.

(thought questions, not asking for responses). I do agree, you definitely have to make the "coop" part super obvious otherwise you won't make it past initial filters.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by gwright on Thursday March 22, 2018 @06:23PM (#16653257)
Make it clear. Seeing this on a resume is actually a bonus in my mind compared to someone without that experience.

Of course the farther into your career the less important this is, but for new developers I would say this is an important and positive detail to highlight.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by jamesmishra on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:13PM (#16652275)
Internships don't count to the general rules around job tenure.

You should probably be putting "Intern" after your job title on your previous roles, if you aren't already.

It might be worth it to also clear up your work history during the on-site interview too.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by tboyd47 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:48PM (#16652566)
I sympathize with your position but bad management/toxic culture are also systemic problems in the software world. It could be that the person just had a string of bad projects and was trying to avoid getting burned out. It would suck if someone got locked out of a good job that might have helped their career due to that.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by ddebernardy on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:50PM (#16652583)
> Not always true, but in general terms if you have a great employer then you tend to hang around.

FTFY

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by rimliu on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:54PM (#16653065)
Your statemen in the last paragraph about increased value is correct. Alas, too often that does not correspond to the proportional increase in pay. For some reason other companies are willing to pay more.

There is also “people join companies but leave managers“.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by JustSomeNobody on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:28PM (#16652419)
I don't know, would it hurt to have one person on the team only interested in pulling tasks and banging out code? They rest of the team could use the extra time to deepen their knowledge of the business.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by extra88 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:53PM (#16652602)
Given the expense that goes into hiring, on-boarding, and off-boarding employees, yes having to do that more than once a year can hurt. If it's fine, they should be contractors, not employees.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by nunez on Thursday March 22, 2018 @06:22PM (#16653253)
I understand the sentiment, but think about it like this: You've been working at a company for six months. Recruiters, good and bad, have been sending you offers to interview for all sorts of jobs. A recruiter finally sends you an opportunity that you can't turn down (2x compensation, more vacation, dream position at dream company, shorter commute with same pay, etc). You interview, you ace it, you get the offer.

Do you turn it down to build more tenure at your current company? Or do you accept because it improves your situation right now?

Rinse, wash, repeat.

Based on the number of emails I've gotten from recruiters (on a stale resume, mind you!), I'd say that "the market" doesn't care about length of time at an employer as much as one might think.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by gfodor on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:18PM (#16652330)
All other things being equal yeah you have to screen resumes somehow.

But I think the point made in the OP is worth reflecting on: job hoppers may actually illuminate desirable candidates.

[dead]
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by harryh on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:03PM (#16652191)
Thank you for confirming the point made by the OP. People generally don't want to hire liars either.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by myth_drannon on Thursday March 22, 2018 @03:59PM (#16652151)
I was shocked when I saw people were doing that. Some would just make the 6 months stints disappear and add to the job before! Some have generic 10 years "Person Name Services Ltd" where they do "consulting work" but actually just merge all the embarrassing experiences into it.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by kevinskii on Thursday March 22, 2018 @03:56PM (#16652116)
It does make you less valuable, for the reasons described.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by staplers on Thursday March 22, 2018 @03:58PM (#16652134)
Two way street. Pay better, offer better workplace, and other offers won't be appealing.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by lwhalen on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:18PM (#16652331)
OP should register himself as an S-Corp, hang out a shingle, and market it as a consultancy. Now the pay triples, your short stay at various companies is downright expected, and everybody's incentives align - OP wants to do the best work he can in the shortest amount of time possible (so he can move on to the _next_ client), and his employers^Wclients will pay more to collect on the value OP's work provides sooner. Ironically, if you start spending more than a year at any given client, future clients will start to get antsy about '...why were you there so long? Are you a foot-dragger? What's the matter with you?" This is why you should NOT do hourly-billing, to make sure everybody's incentives stay aligned as described above. :-)

Difficulty level: stop thinking of yourself as a 'programmer' or an 'engineer', and start thinking of how your programming/engineering work impacts the business' bottom line. See: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr...

tl; dr - humans are weird.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by nunez on Thursday March 22, 2018 @06:30PM (#16653306)
It's a bit more complicated than that.

A) I would do it as an LLC, as it's cheaper, easier to set up and doesn't require a partnership structure.

B) Not every company is looking for a 1099 employee. In fact, I'd wager that most would rather hire W-2 (US) instead.

C) Trying to go the real consulting route will lead to long-ish sales cycles depending on your rate and what you're looking to do. You'll also need to go through procurement at a big enough place; that, in and of itself, can take a while.

D) You're on the hook for health insurance and retirement. Health insurance is expensive.

E) Days off outside of the weekend and federal holidays comes out of your PnL. You can (and should) factor that into your rate, but see (C) for why that might make building a book of business more difficult.

F) You'll need to sell yourself much more than you would as an employee. If you're the type that hates writing/speaking/meetings/selling, then I wouldn't recommend consulting.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by lwhalen on Thursday March 22, 2018 @07:39PM (#16653766)
LLC/S-Corp/whatever, if you're doing this, you're going to want to make friends with a CPA, and an attorney. Everybody's needs on this front is going to be highly individualized, the couple hundred bucks spent on advice from these two professional friends are going to pay staggering dividends later.

B) Not in my experience. W2 employees have a 20% overhead for various insurances, taxes, etc. There's also significant employment law one has to follow to a T, 'or else'. Consultants, you can be a little looser with.

C) Not disagreeing on this one, but there's also _tons_ of smaller shops and startups who have expensive problems a consultant's specialized knowledge/experience may be uniquely suited to solve.

D) As a non-smoking overweight single male, my 'gold plan' insurance on the west coast is ~$400/mo. At consultant profit margins, that is effectively 'lolwhatever' money.

E) This is yet another example of why hourly billing is nuts. Don't bill hourly. Bill per-project, and charge for the business-value of the work to the business. Considerable literature has been written on this, see works by Jonathan Stark, Alan Weiss, etc. tl; dr - if you're billing hourly, you're doing it Wrong(tm)

F) Strong agree. But just because one may hate writing/speaking/meetings/selling doesn't mean one can't A. learn it, and B. learn to excel at it. Would _you_ take a course on public speaking and read a book on negotiation if you were reasonably certain you could make your current annual income in a quarter's worth of work?

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by nunez on Friday March 23, 2018 @12:22PM (#16659669)
Absolutely agree with (F). Writing, speaking and socializing are learned skills! I'm proof: I was horribly socially awkward until I learned how to speak to people! I also wasn't a great writer, but I kept at it and learned from people better than me. Now, I'm slightly better!

E) I agree that Fixed Cost is better than T&M/hourly...if you're good at estimating and scoping the work beforehand. I.e. if you have lots of experience to sell. It's very easy to lose money on the margin if you're not, hence why I'd recommend hourly for someone new to the game.

(I'd wager that it only makes sense to get into high-rate consulting if you have tons of experience, but that's another debate.)

D) I didn't know it was that cheap for young and single people! But it gets expensive fast if you have a family or advanced conditions.

C) Right, but you'd better be specialized enough to make it worth a startup's while to employ you. Also, it is easier to find startup's willing to hire you in hotspots like NYC or SF than, say, Columbus, OH. You could work remote, but that is a more difficult sell depending on what you do and your rates.

Definitely definitely agree with (A). Mistakes in filling are costly, and you'll eventually have a contract dispute that is easier to suss out with a lawyer.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by chadash on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:16PM (#16652313)
If you were the owner of a small company and you have two employees who look identical on paper, but one seems to be jumping ship frequently in order to get higher salaries and one seems to be sticking with the same company for years, who are you going to hire?

If I'm giving advice to job seekers, I'd say move around enough to get good salary increases, but don't do it too frequently or potential employers will start to see it as a red flag.

If I'm giving advice to hiring managers, I'd say hire great people, but keep in mind that the best people often get bored or want salary increases, so they tend to move around. If you see someone who has moved around very frequently in the past, then there's certainly a good chance they'll be moving again in the near future.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by cannonedhamster on Monday March 26, 2018 @12:36AM (#16676639)
Counter-point, I've flat out said I have an offer at a company that's offering me double the salary you are, can you offer me something including an in name only title increase and been told no. Companies only see short term, not long term. There is also no guarantee of company loyalty. If the street doesn't go both ways which should the impetus always be on the employee to remain loyal. It's a business contract that should benefit both parties. I've increase my pay to over 5 times what I was making just 5 years ago by changing jobs. Should I feel bad about that? I'd love a company that paid me well and treated the relationship like a two way street. In fact any time I've left it's when the company lost respect for my work, not the work I've put in for the company. I've only been fired 1 time in my life and it was odious and not due to my performance but due to me not accepting public scoldings for things that I had literally no ability to control after a management change.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by swearwolves on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:33PM (#16652452)
Do people really do this? I can sort of understand grouping shorter stints into "Freelance" or "Consulting" ...but to just outright lie and say you were at a company for 6 months longer than you actually were? All it takes is one phone call and your cover is blown.
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by commandlinefan on Thursday March 22, 2018 @05:33PM (#16652906)
> All it takes is one phone call and your cover is blown.

Not necessarily. When I was interviewing for the job I have now, they were trying really hard to weed out people like OP who claimed to have been at one place for a longer time than they had. They demanded HR contacts for my last _three_ jobs (which in my case stretches all the way back to 2002) so they could make sure that the start & end dates I put on my application matched up with what HR stated. Well, we ran in to an immediate problem with the second job ago - the company had gone out of business since I left, and there was nobody to contact. They shrugged their shoulders and moved on to the most recent job. Well, that was a startup, too - when I started working there, it was a contract-to-hire position, so I was actually an employee of "warm body providers corp" for the first six months. Then, when I was converted to perm at that job, it was bought by "megaglobalcorp" a year later. Then, about six months before I was let go, megaglobalcorp sold our entire office to "evilcorp, inc." who decided to shut down the office (which is why I was out of work in the first place). So when HR at the job I have now started making calls, I had had _four_ different employers in a three year period, even though I had been in the same office, sitting at the exact same desk, reporting to the exact same boss throughout the entire period. I think I may have explained this to the "currentjob" HR eight times before they finally gave up and decided to trust me when I said I had only had three different jobs in the past 16 years.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by cableshaft on Thursday March 22, 2018 @06:14PM (#16653200)
I am in a similar acquisition/merger type situation. Same department, same desk, four different legal entities. I'm just including the three main ones in the same entry for my resume.

It was a pain in the butt when I bought a house, though, and I needed to write a formal letter explaining all the changes and why it looks like I kept switching jobs according to my tax documents.

Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by commandlinefan on Friday March 23, 2018 @02:18PM (#16661070)
Yep, I'm not looking forward to filing taxes this year - I have W-2's from three different employers, just for me (not to mention a few months on unemployment, too).
Re:Types of People Startups Should Hire, but Don’t by naveen99 on Thursday March 22, 2018 @04:48PM (#16652568)
lying is worse than job hopping even if job hopping was bad.