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Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by trothamel on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:52AM (#16473777)
"The extraterritorial nature of these two frameworks..."

I've noticed that this is something the EU has tried to do lately, to just sort of push their regulations on the rest of the world. I don't see what sort of authority they'd have to impose this on citizens of other countries.

I wonder if Europe pushes the issue, if this will be treated like libel tourism, where US citizens and companies without a Eurpoean nexus will be explicitly protected from judgements against them.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by breakingcups on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:00AM (#16473845)
It's quite simple. If you want to do business in the EU or with people who reside in the EU, you need to comply with the EU's regulations.

Don't like it? Don't do business in/with the EU. Then you're free to ignore their frameworks, rules and regulations.

They are not trying to "impose their regulations on the rest of the world", they're trying to protect the privacy of their inhabitants. That this leads to measures that need to be taken by companies doing business with (the data of) their inhabitants is a side-effect and only logical.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by teeray on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:10AM (#16473960)
If a business decides to opt-out of doing business with the EU as a result, what measures do they need to take? Would a banner asking "Are you an EU citizen? Yes/No" suffice? Or would we have to use some kind of Geo IP tool? How would that defend against EU citizens using a VPN or Tor, and what would a business's liability be in that case?
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by ryandrake on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:42AM (#16474322)
What kind of business exists where it would be cheaper to drop European revenue than comply with GDPR?

The major tech companies impacted by the law are already likely taking steps to comply. Is anyone seriously saying they’d rather just wave goodbye to an entire continent?

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by mathie25 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:43AM (#16474347)
Not all organisations will need to be compliant with GDPR. By that I mean, if your organisation only do marketing in, for example, the US and Canada, only accepts USD/CAD and they are no legitimate appearance that you do/want to do business in Europe, you are not required to be GDPR compliant, even if an european customer goes on your website and purchases a product/service.

If your website accepts Euros, has multiple european languages (e.g. spanish, german, etc.), you do marketing in Europe, then we can conclude that you legitimely do business in Europe, you are then required to be GDPR compliant. This is indicated in one of the GDPR article (can't remember which one)

Edit: fix typos

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by shkkmo on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:19PM (#16477436)
This are all limitation/qualification upon whether you qualify as providing goods/services.

Yet, that is only one of two reasons why you would be subject to GDPR, the other is "the monitoring of their behaviour as far as their behaviour takes place within the Union".

As far as I can tell, logging a european IP address together with urls (i.e. an access log like every server has) would qualify you even if you aren't doing business there.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by fencepost on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:19AM (#16474847)
Is that interpretation or is there actually language to this effect in the regulations?
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by shkkmo on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:01PM (#16477269)
I found this (which is not official or legal advice but does quote the regulation): https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/who-must-comply/
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by wglb on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @01:23PM (#16476324)
Not quite. GDPR applies to you, a US entity, if you do business with an EU citizen trading in dollars living in the US.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by mathie25 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @01:57PM (#16476652)
"[...]Whereas the mere accessibility of the controller's, processor's or an intermediary's website in the Union, of an email address or of other contact details, or the use of a language generally used in the third country where the controller is established, is insufficient to ascertain such intention, factors such as the use of a language or a currency generally used in one or more Member States with the possibility of ordering goods and services in that other language, or the mentioning of customers or users who are in the Union, may make it apparent that the controller envisages offering goods or services to data subjects in the Union."

Quote from GDPR, page 5, recital 23 (http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-23-GDPR.htm). I'm no lawyer, but that's the way I'm understanding it.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by freeone3000 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:00PM (#16478391)
So what, English and French? Those are the two major languages of the union, but are also the two official languages of canada. Seems like you can easily get hamstrung on a technicality.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @07:27PM (#16479546)
Those are factors, not hard and fast rules. If you are a Canadian company and you provide services in English and French, that alone wouldn't indicate that you are targeting EU users. There would need to be other factors indicating your intent to target EU users.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:29PM (#16478630)
GDPR may state that it applies. Good luck to the EU in enforcing it, though.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by fencepost on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:18AM (#16474830)
You might need to add something to your terms asking the lines of users certifying that they are not EU residents or citizens and agree to not move to any EU country, and if they do any of those things they agree to indemnify you for any legal expenses or fines resulting from that.

Completely unenforceable though.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by Feniks on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:47AM (#16474413)
Deny access to EU citizens. If EU citizens then lie about their identity its out of your hands.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by ansgri on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:16AM (#16474031)
Simply stop accepting European credit cards. Just like many EU online shops do not accept non-EU (or what blacklist do they have) cards. At least I haven't been able to buy an ebook without a proper European card and/or billing address.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by aquadrop on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:22AM (#16474100)
GDPR is not about money, you may not accept payments at all.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by ansgri on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:33AM (#16474222)
ok, but maybe combined with the notice that if you're from EU, you should leave, that would be an effective measure to show you mean it when you say 'no business with EU'.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by zaarn on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:51AM (#16474455)
Users in the EU are not legally required to follow such notices until you make some form of contract with them. Which requires consent.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by trothamel on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:20AM (#16474073)
There's a big difference between "in the EU" and "with people who reside in the EU". When I come to the EU to do business, sure, I'll comply with their laws.

But it's very different to expect people who live outside the EU to respect EU laws, just because someone from the EU happens to choose to visit their website. I don't see this as any different than if someone in the EU was to visit a convenience store in the US - should the convenience store owner be bound by EU regulations in that case?

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by rowyourboat on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:50AM (#16474437)
The comparison to the convenience store fails because in the digital realm, the customer does not need to physically travel outside the EU to do business with somebody outside the EU.

Or, to look at it another way: If it weren't extraterritorial, ad providers (for example) could simply close their local branches, and EU citizens would not be protected from consent-less data gathering. To realistically be able to fulfill its mission, the GDPR _has_ to be global in scope.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by freeone3000 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:01PM (#16478401)
Why don't ad providers simply close their local branches, stop accepting these tainted Euros, and collect the data anyway? As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there's limited mechanism of enforcement.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by lostcolony on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:44AM (#16474358)
For the same reason that downloading a song is different than stealing with a CD. Digital stuff is innately different.

You aren't doing business unless you're accepting payments/selling/shipping things to people in the EU. And as with any law, if you're sufficiently small fry the EU isn't going to care about you until you actually screw up. Don't accept euros as currency. Don't offer to ship to EU nations. Done. If you do accept payments/ship/etc, unless you're a multinational, the EU probably won't care anyway, as you'll fly under the radar, unless you leak customer information. Do that in a sufficiently extravagant way, and they -will- care, but unless you have assets in the EU they can't/won't do anything about it anyway.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by shkkmo on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:27PM (#16477537)
> You aren't doing business unless you're accepting payments/selling/shipping things to people in the EU.

This is false.

If you offer a free product and one of the companies you publicly list as a user has a presence in the EU, then you need to be compliant.

If your signup page has been localized to Estonian, you also probably need to be compliant.

"Whereas the mere accessibility of the controller’s, processor’s or an intermediary’s website in the Union, of an email address or of other contact details, or the use of a language generally used in the third country where the controller is established, is insufficient to ascertain such intention, factors such as the use of a language or a currency generally used in one or more Member States with the possibility of ordering goods and services in that other language, or the mentioning of customers or users who are in the Union, may make it apparent that the controller envisages offering goods or services to data subjects in the Union."

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by nemetroid on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:12AM (#16474754)
> Don't accept euros as currency.

I see multiple comments mentioning this. Do American banks restrict which currencies your credit card can be charged in? As far as I've been able to tell, my bank lets me pay in any currency I'd like, and they will convert the amount to SEK before charging my account.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by lostcolony on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @02:43PM (#16477126)
Don't offer shipping options to the EU.

If dealing with digital products, allow people to purchase without creating an account, or require them to select a country as part of account creation (and prevent those selecting the EU, or don't make it an option). If the bank processes the payment, but you've collected no information, you can't run afoul of the law (since you have no information).

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by shkkmo on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:22PM (#16477486)
> If the bank processes the payment, but you've collected no information, you can't run afoul of the law (since you have no information).

Don't have server logs with IP addresses? Don't collect an email for the user to use to log in? Don't receive customer support recieve from these users?

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by epicide on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @12:45PM (#16475875)
> You aren't doing business unless you're accepting payments/selling/shipping things to people in the EU.

I wonder how ads play into all this. E.g. are people who watch an ad on YouTube considered YouTube customers? Are they considered customers of the ad company?

My concern is that we will see more (non-EU) companies implement something where users "pay" for services/features by watching ads. I do also wonder how it then affects the ad companies if they collect personal information about the user. Does the user count as a "customer" if the ad company is the one paying?

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by PeterisP on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @01:21PM (#16476309)
The simple answer to that is that the advertisers pay you to show ads to EU users because they want to get money from EU users; so these advertisers are/have to be GDPR compliant, especially if they're using user information to target ads, and they'll have to be sure that this user information is legal for them to use.

The advertising networks are clearly doing business in EU as they're getting paid by these advertisers - so all the major advertising networks will have to be GDPR compliant. So in this regard, the ads (and user info used for these ads) shown to EU users will (in practice) have to be GDPR compliant even if your site doesn't care about it, because everyone who'd want to pay for these ads has to be compliant.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by epicide on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @01:44PM (#16476514)
> advertisers pay you to show ads to EU users because they want to get money from EU users; so these advertisers are/have to be GDPR compliant

This is the part I'm not sure is true.

Sure, if the ad agency's company motto is "delivering ads to EU users since XXXX", they obviously have to be compliant, but what if they are a US-based ad agency and none of the companies selling them ad space are in the EU? How many layers does one need to circumvent this?

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by PeterisP on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @02:01PM (#16476695)
I'm not talking about ad agencies, but about the actual advertisers. Why would a company buy ad impressions if they're not selling to these users?

Almost every ad I see is from some company that is actually eager to sell stuff to me, so they're doing business in EU, and have to be compliant.

All advertisers who care about me won't be allowed to buy my data from US-based ad agencies, so even if such US-based agencies can gather the data, it's worthless, since noone would buy that.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by mbesto on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:04AM (#16473887)
> Don't like it? Don't do business in/with the EU. Then you're free to ignore their frameworks, rules and regulations.

So, should you just start blocking IPs from EU-based citizens?

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by Tomte on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:07AM (#16473921)
Yes, if you're not willing to comply, that's exactly what you should do.

OTOH it just shows your remaining customers that you're willing to do shitty things to them, as long as America is trailing in privacy legislation.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by aleksei on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:31AM (#16474196)
Geoblocking IPs is not a solution, unless you're willing to let some people slip through and block people who you don't need to block. Also, not everyone connecting from a EU country is a citizen thereof.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by robin_reala on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @12:51PM (#16475947)
GDPR doesn’t just apply to citizens of EU countries, it also applies to residents and potentially people just passing through (e.g. changing flights at an EU hub).
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by ChickeNES on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @06:46PM (#16479281)
Given that the average small-to-medium sized business in the US is unlikely to do any business outside of the US, I think we'll be fine. :)
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by izacus on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:57AM (#16473824)
How is that different from US pushing their DMCA rules to us Europeans and removing our content from services with legal proof?
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by trothamel on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:34AM (#16474226)
It isn't? European companies shouldn't be subject to the DMCA, unless they have a nexus in the US.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by nihonde on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:26AM (#16474141)
The GDPR applies to transactions with a nexus in the Union. If a US or Chinese traveler books a hotel in Germany, the GDPR protects their data. If a Chinese hotel chain offers a room to a German guest, the GDPR applies to processing of that guest’s data, even if the chain has no other presence in the Union. If that chain stays out of EU data protection agency reach, enforcement is a non-issue. But if Germany and China were to enter a bilateral agreement (as the US will), or if the Chinese hotel chain wants to establish a presence in Europe, then compliance is not optional. Fines are up to 4% of “global turnover”, which is a serious risk to take lightly.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by kazen44 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:50AM (#16475221)
> If that chain stays out of EU data protection agency reach, enforcement is a non-issue. But if Germany and China were to enter a bilateral agreement (as the US will).

this is a very good point actually, GDPR will probably also be used in trade agreements as a requirement, in which the EU has a lot of leverage compared to most other nations/trading blocks across the world.

In the end, the reason the EU can do it is simply because it has enough political leverage to make this happen.

edit: To add to this, I think these kind of things will be good in the long run, especially when the EU starts more trading talks with smaller nations, which are usually very eager to get into a trade agreement with the EU, especially for african nations as it usually allows more ways for legal migration and includes foreign aid a lot of the times.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by sveme on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:01AM (#16473859)
It's something that basically every big block is trying to do, the US has enforced DMCA and other stuff on other providers as well. Though in principle, GDPR only covers EU citizens - if you would be selling a product from Australia that exploded upon using it for the first time to an EU citizen, wouldn't you expect EU authorities to go after you as well?
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by trothamel on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:03AM (#16474619)
No, I'd expect Australian regulators to be the ones that went after you in that case.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by sveme on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:17AM (#16481309)
Hmm, if you're selling into the EU, it's EU regulations that you have to follow, not Australian. Maybe we just misunderstood each other, I'm talking about shipping a product to the EU.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by dragonwriter on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:57AM (#16473820)
> I don't see what sort of authority they'd have to impose this on citizens of other countries.

The authority they have is that delegated by the sovereign members of the EU, and the fact that the authority of a sovereign power is limited only by its own decisions and it's practical capabilities.

(The US also imposes it's ruled extraterritorially when it feels like it.)

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by wuliwong on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:24PM (#16477498)
I agree but I think a similar question would be: how would this ever be enforced on a US based company/website where it had a EU visitor. I wrote this in another comment but I think outside of just blocking your site in the EU, they would need a further agreement (or I guess precedent) with the US government to actually enforce a penalty on the US company.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by kuschku on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @04:19PM (#16478013)
> but I think outside of just blocking your site in the EU, they would need a further agreement (or I guess precedent) with the US government to actually enforce a penalty on the US company.

The US has given lots of precedent cases for that. The usual approach the US takes is to force the banks the foreign site is operating with to seize all assets. The EU likely would do the same.

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by pjc50 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @11:56AM (#16475313)
As came up last time, this is the mirror image of the way the US treats anyone anywhere in the world running a gambling website.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by allendoerfer on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @02:07PM (#16476759)
If you have ever opened a bank account in Europe, you have come across a checkbox, where you have to specify that you are not an American citizen. The US pushes their regulations on companies outside their jurisdiction, too.
Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by blibble on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:53PM (#16478836)
the result for banking is that European banks refuse to let Americans open bank accounts

depending on the levels enforcement I suspect the same will be true of many popular online services for GDPR: you check the "EU citizen" checkbox and you're banned

Re:How GDPR Will Change The Way You Develop by jamiepenney on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @06:46PM (#16479278)
It's not just Europe, I've heard of banks here in New Zealand doing the same. The cost of compliance for them was more than the customer was worth.