News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by djsumdog on Sunday February 25, 2018 @04:19PM (#16461216)
I'd really like to see a truly open alternative on the mobile space. The biggest issue is the hardware. It's just not standardized and there's no incentive to do so. It's really preventing the way Linux took off on developers desktops back in the late 90s/early 2000s.

FirefoxOS and Ubuntu Touch looked promising, but they lacked good hardware to run on. I'd really like to try Plasma, but I don't like any of the devices it supports.

PostmarketOS is just a way to turn an old phone into a Raspberry Pi type device, but maybe that's the first step in a truly unified mainline kernel for all mobile devices.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by culot on Sunday February 25, 2018 @08:06PM (#16462261)
Apparently KaiOS is a fork of Firefox OS/B2G. So... where's the code, yo? I've scoured Github, but no sign of it.

edit: nevermind:

"KaiOS is based on the Firefox OS open-source project and we are committed to abide by the rules of the applicable open source licenses. Therefore, we’ll make the source code available to the extent required by the applicable open source licenses."

So that's a no on giving back to the B2G which born thee. Nice. Another closed-source OS is just what the mobile space needs.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by fabrice_d on Sunday February 25, 2018 @09:44PM (#16462671)
It's not a "no on giving back". You only have to make available the source for products you ship, and KaiOS itself is not the one shipping the devices, so it's up to the OEMs to provide the source they use on their phones (they do their own customizations).

That being said, I'm trying to get us to open source the "base" version which is provided to OEMs.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by beefhash on Monday February 26, 2018 @12:53AM (#16463426)
> I'm trying to get us to open source

Can I assume you're involved with KaiOS development? Android vendors have a terrible reputation about pushing security updates in a timely manner (or at all for devices that aren't the current flagship). Do you have any plans to contractually force or otherwise encourage vendors to push security updates?

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by toyg on Monday February 26, 2018 @05:54AM (#16464454)
> You only have to make available the source for products you ship

That's a bit disingenous. Android wasn't shipping anything and it always released sources, as far as I know. Same for almost any Linux distribution out there. Common courtesy calls for distributing at least "release" versions, like RedHat and even Apple do.

That, to me, sounds like you're currently taking the minimalist "we'll release the bare minimum we are legally forced to, and nothing else" stance, which is basically equivalent to "we are not going to give back anything if we can avoid it".

I do hope this will change in the future, although given the realities of embedded development (cut-throat and all), I wouldn't be surprised if it never did. I think I'll keep rooting for more open players in the space.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by jan-kleks on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @09:49AM (#16483322)
Yeah, it would be awesome to have this open-source, with the help of the community one can achieve great things.

There was this project for FirefoxOS to support J2ME apps -- https://github.com/mozilla/pluotsorbet It would be great to have something like that for "nostalgic" reasons. Many feature phones' users remember J2ME apps, games especially, very fondly. Check out also this J2ME project, which could potentially be ported to KaiOS as well: https://github.com/XerTheSquirrel/SquirrelJME

Also, have you considered some kind of support for "content blocking" (like in iOS, or in the form of typical browser plugin-ins), of course, I'm not saying that ANY content should be blocked by default. But taking into account that devices with KaiOS wouldn't be very powerful, it could be really useful to have such an option to avoid "unnecessary" stuff when browsing the Internet...

Anyway, keep up good work!

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by paulie_a on Monday February 26, 2018 @04:31AM (#16464152)
Can you prevent the OEMs from customizing? That is my biggest complaint in regards to Android. Garbage software added on top of good hardware.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by _b8r0 on Monday February 26, 2018 @08:19AM (#16465023)
You have to be aware that a "closed-source fork of Firefox OS" sounds ridiculous on every level.

If you don't make it open source, that challenge will be levied at every opportunity, and rightly so.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by bobajeff on Sunday February 25, 2018 @09:34PM (#16462630)
Checking out the site it looks like they are targeting feature phones and they appear to be quite successful at it.

Which is funny because Mozilla tried that shortly before abandoning the whole project.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by zitterbewegung on Sunday February 25, 2018 @10:02PM (#16462746)
I wonder where some of those people went when then? Did they move to Kai os or not?

Or maybe the phone partners figured out that they could run the project themselves and when mozilla axed it they just moved on.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by bobajeff on Sunday February 25, 2018 @10:15PM (#16462806)
Well, some of them went to Acadine Technologies to work on H5OS.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by blitmap on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:40PM (#16461625)
Speaking as someone not at all involved in this space, I'd love for Google to take smartphones waaaay more seriously. I feel like in an effort to make Android easy to adopt and customize they have let the "feel" of Android suffer. I hate bloatware on every new phone. I hate that phones differ so greatly. Something invaluable to me on an iPhone is the switch to silence alerts.

I wish Google would define a "standard" like Intel has with what is and what isn't an "Ultrabook". As in, to be a "Nexus" phone it must have a minimum resolution of ..., it must last for x hours of video playback and x hours of wifi use, it must have the damn alert-killing side switch, it must have a camera of a minimum quality (megapixel/zoom/can record at 1080p@60hz), etc...

Google should be defining what an Android phone is in terms of hardware; define a brand other makers can adopt so customers can trust the standard to at least cater to those needs. And that isn't even getting into how fucking awful the Google Play store is. What a malware magnet.

Sorry this is somewhat off-topic, I just feel this is how Google has lost us and why we seek alternatives.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by nasredin on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:22PM (#16461813)
I think Goog is trying to compete with Apple with quantity and, bear with me, not quality.

Famous quote: "quantity has a quality all its own".

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by Feniks on Monday February 26, 2018 @08:09AM (#16464980)
How many non Apple phones run iOS?

The strength of Android is that you can customize it. Some people like Touchwizz. I prefer oxygenOS.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by eadmund on Monday February 26, 2018 @11:44AM (#16466626)
> Something invaluable to me on an iPhone is the switch to silence alerts.

OnePlus's phones have that, and it's great. Of course, OnePlus also have some nasty privacy failures … but then, Apple have some nasty openness failures.

I'd love to be able to just buy a decent phone, with a replaceable battery (because the batteries fail first), which I, not some vendor, own.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by TickleSteve on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:23PM (#16461816)
That's exactly what the Android One (and previously Android Go) standards where all about, they set minimum hardware standards and experiences. They then guarantee updates for two years, etc...
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by k_sze on Sunday February 25, 2018 @07:07PM (#16462023)
Guaranteeing updates for X years is an empty promise unless they also guarantee the maximum delay in adopting upstream (security) updates and releasing them, with reimbursement in case of failure to comply.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by kopijahe on Sunday February 25, 2018 @11:10PM (#16463050)
The first generation of android one's phones (the ones that released in India and Indonesia, powered by mediatek mt6582) have this. They even sometimes have the monthly security update early (for example, the November update is rolled out in late October).

Sadly, the newer generation does not have that. Google given up the update to the vendor, which in turn do what they do best, not updating the goddamn phone.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by blitmap on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:38PM (#16461896)
The focus of Android One seems to be running an unmodified Android? I don't think there is an emphasis on a minimum hardware spec. The phones showcased there do impress.. https://www.android.com/one/ Is there a requirement for how long the phones are supported with software/security updates?

If I were to add to the brief spec I defined above I'd also require speakers at both ends of the phone for stereo output, and require keeping the 3.5mm jack (yay S9?). I still think Samsung likes to make slippery bar-soap phones that I cant hold.

I still don't like how permissions are done even on LineageOS - I wish I could grant access to the camera for an app "for the next 5 minutes".

Now I'm really off topic. I shall diminish ~

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by Zigurd on Monday February 26, 2018 @08:56AM (#16465233)
Android Treble is, at long last, decoupling Android OS porting from the cycle of BSP support. It's only for Android 8+, so the impact won't be widespread until later this year and into 2019. But this should enable vendors to lengthen their update support more independently of the underlying kernel and driver support.

https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/treble

Large parts of Android-the-OS is implemented in middleware running on the same runtime as Android's apps, which should have made this kind of portability possible earlier in the development of Android. But here it is.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by HIPisTheAnswer on Monday February 26, 2018 @12:28AM (#16463325)
Google is funding FuchsiaOS, the source is copyfree and there are Wayland calls in the tree.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by jacquesm on Sunday February 25, 2018 @04:37PM (#16461308)
I really want PostMarketOS to succeed, for one because it would be really neat to have an open phone OS but also because I think it would cut down a lot on the number of phones that end up being demolished long before their actual life-span is at an end.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by smt88 on Monday February 26, 2018 @12:08AM (#16463269)
I have a 1st-gen Moto X that I use as a backup.

It's about as responsive as my Pixel (i.e. not very responsive, not even close to iPhone) and it's a great size.

The problem is, as always, the battery. If I could replace that and install PostMarket, I might use it as my daily driver.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by thom_nic on Monday February 26, 2018 @09:31AM (#16465484)
Have you looked into a DIY battery replacement?[1] I've replaced "non removable" batteries and cracked screens in several phones over the years (the latest being a Nexus 5X) and it's definitely doable if you have a steady hand, patience, and the right tools.

[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Motorola+Moto+X+Battery+Replace...

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by 1011_1101 on Monday February 26, 2018 @04:41AM (#16464183)
Couldn't find any numbers for battery life comparison between original and postmarketOS. Could you share your experience please? (Your last line seems to indicate there might be a significant increase)
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by smt88 on Monday February 26, 2018 @07:44AM (#16464866)
Sorry, I wasn't clear.

I haven't used Postmarket because no software can fix the battery issues with that phone.

If I could easily swap out the battery and also install Postmarket, I would do both. As of now, I can't get a new battery and will therefore do neither.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by zokier on Sunday February 25, 2018 @04:57PM (#16461424)
> It's really preventing the way Linux took off on developers desktops back in the late 90s/early 2000s.

It is somewhat ironical that the Wintel monopoly that standardized so much of PC space ultimately ended up helping Linux desktops, despite the grumblings of UNIX greybeards.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by bachmeier on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:51PM (#16461682)
I don't really agree with the claim. What allowed the Linux desktop to take off was extreme security problems in Windows and generally a terrible user experience. Anyone adopting Linux had to put up with constant hardware incompatibility issues. It's just that Windows was so bad that it was worth it. (I made the switch sometime around 2003, and have been Linux-only for more than a decade.)

In contrast, there is no obvious need to move away from Android, and if you don't like it, you can move to the iPhone. The Mac was not a good alternative 15 years ago.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by elipsey on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:29PM (#16461851)
I think what they meant was hardware standardization and commoditzation driven by PC clones allowed linux to target a cheap standardized hardware platform that IBM had no legal standing to control after Microsoft started selling windows separately, etc. Or something. I was still in diapers, but if you don’t believe me, Neil Stephenson explained this in ‘In the beginning there was the command line.’

Also, I think terrible security and user experience applies to Android now too.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by pjmlp on Monday February 26, 2018 @01:25AM (#16463549)
I am a pretty happy Windows user and developer since Windows 3.1.

My main reason to use Linux distributions was to be able to do university work at home.

After all I wouldn't be able to buy an Aix or DG/UX license, the UNIXes we had on campus before computing department started to deploy Linux based PCs.

I always dual booted and tried a few times to just use it as desktop, but eventually gave up on it.

My travel netbook and mobile devices are the only gear still running some form of Linux.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by z3phyr on Sunday February 25, 2018 @09:04PM (#16462490)
This is not completely true. I was pretty happy with Windows as my Desktop OS, despite the occasional horrors. All my games worked, Visual C worked and most of the random utilities worked.

I partially switched to Linux just as an adventure, because I could.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by krylon on Monday February 26, 2018 @04:00AM (#16464054)
Hehe, my experience was kind of similar. I was not really unhappy with Windows (98), I had just grown curious about Linux due to all the media hype it got at the time (2000-ish).

After I got past the initial "This is really weird"-phase, Linux was an eye opener. Other than that I use Windows at work, I have not looked back since.

Strictly speaking it is not about GNU/Linux per se, but Windows vs. Unix. One of the BSDs could fill that place just as well, but on Linux, hardware support is usually better, plus the mainstream Linux distros tend to be more friendly to lazy or non-techie users.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by imtringued on Monday February 26, 2018 @08:58AM (#16465242)
>In contrast, there is no obvious need to move away from Android,

Are you serious? Android still has a massive fragmentation problem because OEMs/carriers don't provide updates.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by lovemenot on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:33PM (#16461870)
>> there is no obvious need to move away from Android

I don't disagree as of now.

If there'll ever come a time when Android has its Windows security moment, the trigger this time should be Privacy.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by nasredin on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:28PM (#16461843)
In addition to security. Linux and BSDs were not as polished usability-wise as Windows NTs before early 2000s.

Just my humble opinion.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by krylon on Monday February 26, 2018 @04:06AM (#16464080)
When I first started using Linux (2000), the desktop was still rather clunky. Both KDE and Gnome were so immature I eventually settled on Windowmaker for a few years.

OTOH, the Linux- / free Unix-desktop has come a long way since then. For my personal machines, I think GNU/Linux plus MATE makes for a much better desktop than Windows these days. (Admittedly, my taste might be slightly non-mainstream.)

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by mixmastamyk on Monday February 26, 2018 @12:45AM (#16463391)
Still not. Just tried to schedule a disk check on reboot and had to scour a bunch of pages to find something that might work.

No std msc or service manager gui available either. Some of these existed but were lost in a CADT.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by michaelmrose on Monday February 26, 2018 @01:42AM (#16463600)
Sometimes finding it difficult to do something is an indication you might have a suboptimal work flow.

You can get plenty of info about the health of the drive while the system is running.

There isn't much reason to run a filesystem check unless something is wrong.

Speaking of services it's extremely easy to query which services are running and enable and disable stuff. Plus there aren't 85 different things running.

If you insist you can run something like https://github.com/mmstick/systemd-manager

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by mixmastamyk on Monday February 26, 2018 @03:04PM (#16468477)
I’m well aware of the options. The drive isn’t the problem. This thread was about usability and I did happen to need a filesytem check.

I’m not a fan of Microsoft biz practices but if you think Linux has nothing to learn from windows (especially on the desktop) you are mistaken.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by michaelmrose on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:51PM (#16478810)
Basically the optimal tool for offline maintenance is a live disk which will actually work if the drive is screwed up.

Basically you were holding it wrong.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by imtringued on Monday February 26, 2018 @09:02AM (#16465267)
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by mixmastamyk on Monday February 26, 2018 @03:12PM (#16468560)
These look nice but the big problem is that they may not be compatible and maintained over the long term because they are not a std part of the desktop.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by michaelmrose on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:49PM (#16478789)
Because they aren't needed. We can pretend that the intended user base is your cousin and your grandma if you want but the people that actually use Linux have no problem enabling and disabling services with the command line.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by Apocryphon on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:52PM (#16461687)
It appears that Sailfish OS might be getting bought by a Russian firm: https://www.telecompaper.com/news/rostelecom-cleared-to-acqu...
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by cmrdporcupine on Sunday February 25, 2018 @04:53PM (#16461398)
WebOS was open sourced years ago. And a community even ported it to the Galaxy Nexus and Nexus 7, to the point that I believe there was even the ability to make phone calls. But it never got any momentum and the community seems to have fizzled out.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by acabal on Sunday February 25, 2018 @04:56PM (#16461417)
Man, WebOS was truly excellent. I had a Palm Pre back in the day and to this day there are moments when I'm using Android and I wish I was using WebOS instead. It had such a natural interface for multitasking too.

Unrelated to WebOS, but the Pre's wireless charging accessory is IMHO still the best to date.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by cmrdporcupine on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:03PM (#16461452)
IMHO a large part of WebOS's excellence was the UX design work of Matias Duarte. Android improved immeasurably once he came to Google.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by u801e on Sunday February 25, 2018 @10:55PM (#16462978)
> [WebOS] had such a natural interface for multitasking too.

On the MeeGo OS used on the Nokia N9, it requires swiping in one direction a couple of times to get to the open tasks screen. You can then press and hold on the screen to allow for closing any app(s) you want and click on the done button after you're finished.

Closing an app requires just swiping from the top to the bottom. IIRC, WebOS required you to swipe upward to get to the task screen and then swipe upward again to close the app.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by RandallBrown on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:04PM (#16461453)
The multitasking interface from webOS is very similar to what iOS has now.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by acabal on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:42PM (#16461913)
Yeah, but on WebOS it was a little different... the home screen was actually the open app list, and the app launcher was accessed from that home screen; compared to iOS, which has the app launcher as the home screen, and the open app list as a semi-hidden double-click feature.

I much prefer WebOS's approach. On the other hand, in those days you wouldn't really have more than a few apps open at once, unlike iPads which could have dozens of apps or browser tabs. So who knows if WebOS's style would translate well to today's usage patterns.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by rhn_mk1 on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:06PM (#16461465)
An open alternative is the goal of the Librem phone from Purism.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by mirimir on Sunday February 25, 2018 @10:51PM (#16462960)
Does it use closed-source firmware in the radio baseband? And is there a physical switch between the baseband and main system board?
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by rhn_mk1 on Monday February 26, 2018 @03:58AM (#16464049)
The campaign page [0] says there will be a kill switch:

> Hardware Kill Switches for Camera, Microphone, WiFi/Bluetooth, and Baseband

but is somewhat unclear on the baseband firmware:

> The mobile baseband will most likely use ROM loaded firmware, but a free software kernel driver.

[0] https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by mirimir on Monday February 26, 2018 @02:07PM (#16468020)
Thanks. I somehow didn't see "baseband" in the list of switched stuff. Impressive!

About baseband, as others note, I get that it's a minefield.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by yeukhon on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:17PM (#16461524)
You are probably referring to FxOS targeting emerging markets where smartphones were not common, so the hardware (thus cheaper) was expected to be very weak.

But really, hardware is not a problem from a marketing point of view, from a competition point of view. You can make FxOS to run on the best hardware with supported drivers, but the ecosystem is so behind, eventually users would move away from it. That was the real problem. Consequently, developers would likely give up on FxOS.

Samsung's are all based on Android - which tops iOS's market share by nearly 70%. Neither Ubuntu Touch nor FxOS had any real chances.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by bri3d on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:04PM (#16461455)
I agree, open hardware and specifically the awful state of radio chipsets is the biggest issue here. We're at least getting close to some working open-source SoC hardware with all the work on Mali and Sunxi/Allwinner reverse engineering efforts, but there's nothing good going in the baseband space and the standards and certification are so complex and expensive that it's a complete lock-in.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by debatem1 on Sunday February 25, 2018 @08:10PM (#16462281)
IIRC Android is the most common operating system on Earth, while Linux desktops are still around 5% market share. Seems like desktop Linux needs to do as Android does to take off, not the other way around?
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by toyg on Monday February 26, 2018 @06:10AM (#16464519)
Android arrived when the smartphone marked was in its infancy, whereas Linux emerged much later in the development cycle of the PC market, when it was way too late.

If IBM could have chosen a free and open DOS for its first PCs, the market would look very different today.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by devit on Sunday February 25, 2018 @07:58PM (#16462231)
What they lacked is support for Android apps, since obviously expecting everyone to rewrite all apps for a new platform is a non-starter.

If Mozilla had simply acquired LineageOS, worked on MicroG to reach feature parity with Play Services, added Firefox for Android and their own app store in addition to Google Play via MicroG, and resold flagship Android phones with that as well as offering it to OEMs, they would have had significant success at very little cost.

In fact, they still could do that.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by greenhouse_gas on Sunday February 25, 2018 @11:19PM (#16463097)
1. Companies distributing Google Play Services has to sign an agreement not to ship (or even build) a non-Google Android-derived phone.

So, while Samsung may ship Tizen and Windows Phone, they may not build phones for Amazon (which caused Amazon a lot of problems back in the day - where will you find a company making portable electronics that will make them a white-label product and not making android phones).

2. MicroG depends on Google's servers, so Google can pull the carpet out of them at any time. And where will you get those millions of apps if Google doesn't let you access the App store? Look at the difficulty Amazon has at getting apps into its store, and it's a larger company willing to pay devs to switch apps to Amazon store. And all the hacks that people use will be closed by Google once they get popular.

Now sure, you can use MicroG as a porting library (so if I have a closed source app relying on firebase I can trivially switch to relying on MicroG and Mozilla's back end - kind of like wine), but you'll still have to recreate all of Google's apps anyways (there's no way Google will publish their apps on an Android fork) and also those apps written by those who don't care to port (unlike wine - where I can use the OEM CD or EXE from the OEM website, there's no official way to get apks out of Play Store)

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by pjmlp on Monday February 26, 2018 @01:28AM (#16463557)
And yet they don't use that power to threat OEMs to lose contracts if they don't behave nicely regarding updates.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by devit on Monday February 26, 2018 @06:09AM (#16464512)
Smartphones are commoditized and there are non-Google Android smartphones on the market, so they should be able to get some made. Also, they can just buy any unlocked phone at retail, replace the OS, rebrand and resell (obviously this limits the market due to high price, but also requires no upfront investment).

As for Play Services, they could just have a team whose job is to make MicroG work exactly like Play Services so that all apps work including the Google apps.

The only Google app that you need to replicate is the Play Store client (or really, the downloader, since you can just use the Play Store website for the UI) and then the user can install all the Google apps from the Play Store.

As for getting developers to put apps in their store, it's certainly much easier than getting them to write another app.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by ocdtrekkie on Sunday February 25, 2018 @08:18PM (#16462317)
The problem is that would still be Android. Which means they'd still be beholden to Google, having to support their code, maintain compatibility with their design decisions, etc. That's not a good place for any serious business to be in.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by devit on Sunday February 25, 2018 @08:48PM (#16462410)
Because writing a whole OS from scratch competing with giant companies and having to somehow magically go from 0 to a million apps (while being unpopular due to the few apps) is a good place to be in?

Instead, they could have gotten all the Android apps and the popularity of Android essentially for free.

It's even possible they could have overtaken Google and became the effective steward of the Android platform, since Google doesn't offer a version that can be installed by users and also doesn't offer their version to OEMs with no strings attached.

Again, they still can do that now, since there still isn't a version of Android that runs on any phone other than LineageOS, which is relatively underfunded.

[obviously what Mozilla would gain from this is market share for Firefox for Android]

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by stonogo on Sunday February 25, 2018 @09:51PM (#16462700)
Who on earth wants an android phone but is waiting for a fork from some random company before they make the switch? Your argument applies to approximately nobody. If someone wants an android phone right now they can pick from literally thousands of devices.

On the other hand, I'm already a KaiOS customer because they power the phone I want: the one that makes calls and handles text messages, and then gives me a high-speed network for my computer. I spend about a quarter of my time in India; while there I got a Jio phone and liked it so much I found a KaiOS device that works in the US as well.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by bitmapbrother on Sunday February 25, 2018 @11:40PM (#16463180)
>Instead, they could have gotten all the Android apps and the popularity of Android essentially for free.

No they wouldn't have. They would not get Google Play Services and your MicroG "solution" is ridiculous from a commercial perspective and a violation from a TOS perspective that would be shut down by Google.

>It's even possible they could have overtaken Google and became the effective steward of the Android platform

I don't think you understand the army of developers it takes to maintain and enhance Android on an annual basis nor the millions of dollars it costs Google. To even suggest that they would have overtaken Google and become the steward of the Android platform is ridiculous.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by eadmund on Monday February 26, 2018 @11:48AM (#16466685)
> They would not get Google Play Services

If I have Firefox and thus can load up any Google web page, do I need Google Play Services?

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by ocdtrekkie on Monday February 26, 2018 @12:51PM (#16467290)
As a strange event, I actually upvoted bitmapbrother, we agreed on something! As he says, MicroG is a hack, and there's no reasonable point where someone is going to take stewardship of Android away from Google. (Other than antimonopoly action.)

There's no point in having Android if you can't run Android apps, and most Android apps users want are now dependent on Google's proprietary libraries (Play Services). So why would you want an Android fork if you aren't going to be able to run Android apps? Might as well go with KaiOS at that point.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by bitmapbrother on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @01:41AM (#16481166)
What does a browser have to do with Google Play Services? Google Play Services, like the name implies, supplies services to apps and games. Without these services a large majority of apps that rely on them will cease to work on an Android phone without Google Play Services.
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by eadmund on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @11:11AM (#16483902)
I was thinking that with a browser the need for on-phone apps is significantly reduced.

If one does want or need native apps (e.g. for security), then is it possible for a third party to emulate Google Play Services? Or do they use a certificate to prevent third-party clones?

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by bitmapbrother on Sunday February 25, 2018 @11:32PM (#16463144)
>If Mozilla had simply acquired LineageOS

Why would they need to acquire LineageOS when they can just fork it for free?

>worked on MicroG to reach feature parity with Play Services

That would have been a TOS violation and would have been instantly shut down by Google.

>their own app store

You can't really compete with the Play store and developers wouldn't bother with it.

>they would have had significant success at very little cost.

No they wouldn't have. It would have reached the same outcome as their Android based FireFox OS did and even faster due to the TOS violations your suggesting.

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by harikb on Sunday February 25, 2018 @05:35PM (#16461599)
https://www.freecalypso.org/

I know the person behind this, but not sure of the status

Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by striking on Sunday February 25, 2018 @04:42PM (#16461335)
Re:KaiOS – A Smartphone Operating System by amelius on Monday February 26, 2018 @05:33AM (#16464374)
One problem is compatibility. My banking app only supports Android and iOS. Not sure how that is going to be handled in a new system.