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Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by randyrand on Monday February 12, 2018 @06:38PM (#16363422)
On top of that, I'd wager most people don't very strongly weight a Youtube advertiser with the video it's played before. At least not me.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by i_feel_great on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:02PM (#16363579)
I weigh those ads very negatively. Looking at you, Grammarly. Seriously, why do they play the same ad over and over again, one after the other, to the same viewer? What with all that AI and machine learning and deep neural networks, they can't tell the same session has been served that same ad 50,000 times already?
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by ryanwaggoner on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:09PM (#16363611)
Haha, this made me laugh. It’s humorous that we’re living in a period where a vocal group of critics declares that ML, AI, and incredible amounts of data and tracking are being leveraged to push ads at me so skillfully and subtly that I’m helpless to resist.

Meanwhile, like you said, I’m served the same handful of annoying ads over and over, for products I’d never consider buying. Where are all the ads for stuff that’s so desirable and targeted to me that I just can’t resist purchasing them??

Not saying that critics of advertising have no valid claims, but the juxtaposition is funny.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by hoopladler on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:22PM (#16363692)
I think it was always a bit like this. You can read what people thought about advertising in the 60's, and they had the same kind of paranoid fantasies we have today, although less focused on tech, more on psychology. In reality, advertising psychology then was much as it is now - basically quackery, with a side of 'thought leadership' by guys that really should have stuck to squash.

That said, I think the reason why machine-driven advertising is so much better than its predecessors is simply that the predecessors were really awful. They used to do market research by installing double-sided mirrors in department stores then taking notes on what people looked at. It was absurd. Now, there's actually an even-odds chance that a targeted advert will meet somebody that might be vaguely interested - and that's absolutely orders of magnitude better than a billboard.

And also, to be honest, this whole complaint about cost-performance indices is a bit absurd - since as far as I can gather, they were basically oneiromancy before Google and Facebook came along.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by methodin on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:35PM (#16363762)
"They used to do market research by installing double-sided mirrors in department stores then taking notes on what people looked at."

I'm not so sure we have progressed that much since then. You search for something on Google, swap to Facebook and an ad appears for that same exact thing on the sidebar - not really any different than using browsing as a determining factor for desire to purchase.

A small aspect of ads, I know but I found it such a ridiculous truth that I can't imagine the rest of their systems are actually all that smart.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by devjam on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:22PM (#16363999)
Furthermore, they continue to serve you the ad for the same products, even after you've purchased them.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by imron on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:10PM (#16364216)
Internet advertising sounds horrible. I marvel that so many people still put up with it.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by C4stor on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @05:34AM (#16366123)
In my experience, it's because internet advertising is indeed globally horrible, but advertising on internet is often not about global effects.

To give you a perspective, efficient "performance" (the kind which wants you to buy now) advertising is a click ratio of about half a percent on ads, which vastly outperforms the basic performance one, usually having a ratio of about a tenth of a percent. Of those fractions of a percent, a fraction of a percent will actually buy...

That still means ads missed the target 995 times out of 1000, so are still globally horrible.

Nevertheless, since ads on the internet are so cheap (prices are often negotiated by 1000 ads, to make it a bit more tangible, and we're talking like 5$ per 1000 ads here), it's still sometimes worth it.

So yeah, the global experience is crap, but that's often not the point anyway.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by code_duck on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:01PM (#16363898)
We have progressed since then to the extent that now, stores use technology to observe the behavior of every individual shopper in detail, all over the store.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by pacala on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:17PM (#16364465)
Paranoid fantasies about 42% of the population being lured into smoking and millions of lives lost to easily preventable disease.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by refurb on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @08:13AM (#16366838)
Other factors (e.g. Do your friends smoke?) play a much larger role than advertising.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by verylittlemeat on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @05:48AM (#16366170)
It helps that cigarette smoking is physically addicting.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by sien on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:00PM (#16363892)
Vance Packard's The Hidden Persuaders from 1957 is well worth a look about how advertising was seen as far back as the 1950s.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3730.The_Hidden_Persuade...

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by taneq on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:06PM (#16363921)
> I’m served the same handful of annoying ads over and over, for products I’d never consider buying.

Or worse, for big-ticket items that you'd only buy infrequently. HEY THIS GUY BOUGHT A DRONE LETS SEND HIM DRONE ADS! WAIT NO NOW HE BOUGHT A CAR HE'S A CAR BUYER SEND CAR ADS. No, you silly equation, I just bought a car, that means I'm NOT in the market for a car.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by mcbits on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:19PM (#16364471)
This strategy may actually work for drones. I know very few people who own a drone and don't also own five drones.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by eropple on Monday February 12, 2018 @11:18PM (#16364715)
Can confirm, it works for cameras too. This brought to you by the menagerie of Panasonics now littering my office...
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by Vendan on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @03:10AM (#16365521)
or who own a drone and haven't crashed at least one drone
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by spupy on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @03:10AM (#16365524)
On some ads (Google?) you can click an X button to select a reason for not wanting to see that ad anymore. If I recall correctly one of the options is that you've already purchased that item. It actually worked in my case, but guess what - the advertiser now has even more info on you!
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by JetSpiegel on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @06:22AM (#16366315)
Not only Google slurps all your personal information to better target ads it shows you, you have to do extra work on top of that to keep them relevant. That's rich.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by jstarfish on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:22PM (#16364000)
The problem is that their models are so broken, they require an insatiable amount of invasive training data to try to correct for their erroneous conclusions. Their failures drive even more affronts to privacy. The cycle continues.

Then they sell us household gadgets to sink their hooks deeper into our lives. Microphones listening to conversations won't be enough; soon we'll herald the coming of new "smart" appliances like the Google Toilet, which plays your favorite music, recommends better posture, sprays you off when done and stealthily analyzes your stool samples for markers to see if the Captain Crunch ads they bombarded you with over the last week led to a conversion.

It doesn't work, but failure is clearly no impediment to progress.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by taurath on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:20PM (#16364258)
Any chance it’s actually all a house of cards and direct to consumer advertising doesn’t actually doesn’t do much to begin with?
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by taneq on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:36PM (#16364312)
"Half of all money spent on advertising is wasted - the problem is we don't know which half."
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by JetSpiegel on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @06:24AM (#16366321)
Cut ad spending in two (random choice) and put that money into product development, or just cut prices. Win win.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by taneq on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @09:09AM (#16367175)
Genius! We should also throw a randomly selected 50% of job applicants' resumes in the bin. After all, we don't want to hire anyone who's unlucky!
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by aianus on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @03:24AM (#16365577)
Say what you will but I haven't seen a diaper or tampon ad in years so I'm pretty happy with the improvement over the untargeted advertising of the past. Grammarly is at least within the realm of things that have some possible use to me.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by WmyEE0UsWAwC2i on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:40PM (#16363792)
It seems the ML's cost-reward function maximises profit for the platform.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by maksimum on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:58PM (#16363883)
There was a great article posted here a few months about the internal market maker that Facebook uses to decide which ads to display. Long story short unless a particular platform is the only way to deliver ads to some group of people, the platform needs to keep its customers (the ad purchasers) happy with what they've bought.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by wolco on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:22PM (#16364265)
Those ads simply pay more and / or have more inventory to burn.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by tomlock on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:27PM (#16364278)
This struck a chord with me. I worked in AdTech for two years and wanted to pull my own eyes out because of this.

The reason this happens is that nobody involved gets anything out of stopping this happening. Incoming extreme cynicism.

First off, the marketers are still mostly using demographic segments - often a marketer will encounter a machine-learning model, and their first question is "who are these people" and when you can't explain how the model works, they revert to using demographic segments because they trust them more. This means they often do analysis demographically, and over target people in particular narrow age and gender demographics because they did better last month by chance.

Second, management want to keep their budgets large so their resumes look good. Their desire is to increase the amount of people they can target, while simultaneously appearing to work on interesting tech. Since social and video have recently been en vogue, spend increases on these platforms, while projects focus less on increasing spend efficiency and more on taking credit for sales by tracking customers through the pipeline. This creates a weird scenario where everyone says they're using sophisticated machine learning models, but the contractors and consultants involved are glorified powerpoint factories.

Third, the big silos, google and Facebook, probably have some incredibly sophisticated models of consumer behaviour that are incredibly efficient - but why would they want to give their advertising customers something that would reduce spend?

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by stevenh on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:53PM (#16364606)
Grammarly's ad links directly to an immediate single-click-to-install page for their suspicious browser extension whose fine print asks for total access to look at your private webpage data, keystrokes, ability to inject mysterious scripts into every single page you visit, including email, banking, cryptocurrency exchange login pages, etc. With over 10 million active installations, they could easily use this absurd amount of power to profit in a shady manner. The ROI for their ad spend must be incredible because the average tech-naive person just has to fall for it once and then this extension is installed for the remaining lifetime of their computer. The whole thing has a stench similar to the Hola browser extension botnet incident.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by nitwit005 on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:40PM (#16363796)
Unfortunately, the repetition is probably intentional. It's like the old idea of constantly playing the company jingle. They hope to bludgeon the product into your brain through brute force.

I'm sure it raises "brand awareness" measurements, at the cost of making people hate them.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by prepend on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:35PM (#16363764)
It’s because the message that the algorithm is trying to match you to ads you are interested in is BS. They are matching you to ads that will make you, and others like you buy. So they are ok with pissing off lots of people since it results in shares.

The reality is that people don’t actually want enough to cover ad revenue, but ads make them buy more.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by snr on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:21PM (#16363685)
On facebook though, I actually disabled my ad blocker because I wanted to see the ads. However, I immediately skip over any videos that show ads. My general rule of thumb is if a video has an ad, I don't need to watch the video.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by mdani on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:20PM (#16364476)
Its not what you want to see or buy - they’ll push the ad from a provider who’s bidding highest and providing them most revenue.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by ransom1538 on Monday February 12, 2018 @09:28PM (#16364283)
I am not sure the advertising party has a say. You give a budget, put your media in, and start the campaign. I don't believe the obvious feature exists: "Only play my ad once per user". It definitely wouldn't be a money maker for google. Every advertising party could use this feature to cheaply sweep through all the unique eye balls.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by bcoates on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @02:20AM (#16365324)
At least Youtube and Facebook offer this feature. It's pretty standard. The problem is that a lot of their inventory is an inch wide and a mile deep.

The rule is roughly "narrow targeting, cheap impressions, reasonable frequency, pick any one". A shady ad agency (but I repeat myself) will never pick "reasonable frequency" because their advertisers aren't sophisticated enough to ask if their ad is being sent to one person 50 times in a day.

It only takes one buyer to not set the frequency control option to spam you with the same ad over and over -- everyone else is one-and-done.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by knicholes on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:43PM (#16364094)
Sounds like the advertiser needs to create a progression of videos/display ads instead of showing the same one. I work for a company that provides tools to create such ads. Maybe they need me. :D We definitely know how many times we've shown ads to which people (even across devices).
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by fjsolwmv on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:36PM (#16364531)
How is that possible. You don't know how many YouTube vids I am watching vs someone else who watches more or less per day.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by knicholes on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @09:03AM (#16367136)
I was referring mostly to display advertising, but with video ads, VAST compliant players sent http requests to whichever endpoint specified based on different quantiles (start, 25%, 50%, 75%, video finish). This endpoint would be our servers so we can track which video and how much you've seen. The same is true for display, where we get an impression. You load the image which hits our ad servers, along with your cookie (who are you), and redirects to the actual image.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by IshKebab on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @05:39AM (#16366135)
"Hi, I'm <E-list celebrity> and I made my own website..."

Ugh. Seriously though I suspect it is because their algorithms have decided that you like X and therefore they only show you adverts about X, which is a small subset of all available adverts, so you get the same ones again and again.

On TV they can't target so accurately so you basically get shown every advert. This means there are more to show and it is less repetitive.

I also think advertisers don't mind showing the same person their advert a million times. It may be annoying but it works - name one competitor to Grammarly off the top of your head.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by fjsolwmv on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @05:35PM (#16371490)
My brain is a competitor to Grammarly
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by CodeCube on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:22PM (#16363689)
OMG yes!! I honestly really mostly kinda don't mind ads for media that I value (youtube, spotify, etc) ... however, when it comes down to it, when I get served the same freaking ad over and over and over and over, it just drives me up the wall!

I'd go as far as to say that the end user would be more receptive to ads, if they filled ads with pro-bono charity ads promoting some charity or another ... then the user wouldn't start to hate ads, and they could probably write off the ads they donated.

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by wastedhours on Tuesday February 13, 2018 @11:40AM (#16368449)
Yep, Grammarly and Wix seem to be pervasive on the channels I watch. I have no interest in using either of them, they're usually out of context with the content I want to watch, and the only times I watch them is to make sure my favourite channels get the cash (although signalling that they should target me more...)
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by dorfsmay on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:29PM (#16364505)
I'm always wondering who thinks it's a good idea to show me ads for a product I just bought, ad that I never saw before bought the item.

Similarly, twitter showing ads for Mac/windows only product when my user-agent clearly says Linux!

Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by arel on Monday February 12, 2018 @07:22PM (#16363687)
The single most annoying set of adverts on the internet. Hammy with extra ham on top.
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by dmix on Monday February 12, 2018 @08:49PM (#16364113)
I believe `randyrand` was talking about weighing the advertising company based on the Youtube videos their ads play on, not which videos that ad company produces...
Re:Unilever threatens to pull its ads from Facebook and Goog... by fjsolwmv on Monday February 12, 2018 @10:34PM (#16364521)
It's because grammarly is paying a boatload more than anyone else would