News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Thursday February 08, 2018 @07:10AM (#16331624)
The most expensive wooden floors have the end grain exposed facing upwards and this is then compressed down, much like the top of a good quality butchers block. Those floors are just about indestructible.

The heavier such floors are used the stronger they get!

The wood in the article is compressed crosswise to the grain (so they get thinner rather than shorter), using the original planks as the raw organic material to produce an engineered product that has relatively little to do with the original wood. While this is very impressive the process does not sound cheap (it is time consuming and will produce quite a bit of toxic waste) and the way the article is worded leaves it ambiguous of the strength increase is relative to the original base material or if it is on an absolute scale using the same cross section.

The article states the result is 10 times stronger than the original after being compressed to 1/5th of the size, making it effectively thinner, lighter and stronger at the same time.

It appears that the increase in density is where the writer missed the fact that reducing the cross section but leaving the amount of material the same does not result in an increase in strength on an absolute scale, it merely means that if you then laminated five of the densified planks back to the original cross section the result would be 11 times stronger.

But then you'd lose much of the weight advantage.

So I suspect this is either a space or a strength gain, but not both to the extent the article indicates.

In the previous century there was a lot of research done on strengthening wood including gamma radiation and all kinds of other treatments, but none of those ever made it to very high levels of industrial adoption.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by brudgers on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:50AM (#16332878)
none of those ever made it to very high levels of industrial adoption.

Non-exotic methods of strengthening wood, made it to high levels of production in spades: plywood, oriented strand board, microlam and glulam beams, and medium density fiber board (MDF) are direct examples. Wood I-joists and plate connected wood trusses are less direct. From a functional standpoint, standardization of lumber grades is a social technology that allows designing wood members with known engineering properties.

On the chemical front, pressure treated lumber increases wood's strength across a timeline. Fire treatment increases wood strength in a narrow set of circumstances.

Of these, plywood is clearly the most successful in terms of industrial adoption being used for aircraft, boats, and furniture among other things.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:57AM (#16332968)
Yes, engineered wood is a mainstay of construction. But all of those processes were and are set up to be able to process a large volume in a relatively short time and leave very little to no waste, and what waste there is is sold off as fuel.

Plywood - especially the higher grades - is amazing stuff. I visited a plywood factory in Ontario and it really opened my eyes to how clever and precise the manufacturing of various kinds of engineered wood is.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by noir_lord on Thursday February 08, 2018 @07:14PM (#16336782)
It is, the WWII Mosquito Fighter-Bomber was made from high grade ply and it flew faster than contemporary aluminium fighters, was incredibly durable (except for some de-lamination problems in hot humid far-east environs) and was actually stunningly beautiful.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by scentoni on Friday February 09, 2018 @12:39AM (#16338136)
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by theoh on Thursday February 08, 2018 @08:46PM (#16337253)
Also mostly plywood: the Spruce Goose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_H-4_Hercules
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by paulddraper on Thursday February 08, 2018 @11:06PM (#16337830)
which is simply massive: 320 ft wingspan, the largest of any flown aircraft.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by rootw0rm on Saturday February 10, 2018 @02:00AM (#16346252)
Haha, that was the first aircraft I thought of too!
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by JorgeGT on Friday February 09, 2018 @05:10AM (#16339143)
The earlier de Havilland Comet was also incredibly beautiful and made by innovative woodworking techniques: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_DH.88_Comet?oldfo..., one of my favorite planes ever.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by milesvp on Thursday February 08, 2018 @08:05PM (#16337057)
I too was surprised to find out just how much variety and quality of plywood there is. I always thought it was a relatively cheap, kind of crappy alternative to good lumber. But since I've started following hobby laser cutting, I've been finding out that good plywood really makes a difference if you want good results.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Friday February 09, 2018 @02:27AM (#16338545)
I've had really good experiences with birch based plywood of the better grades and for heavier applications a grade that is used in construction to make the forms for concrete casting.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by samstave on Friday February 09, 2018 @12:45PM (#16342208)
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by coldacid on Friday February 09, 2018 @11:25AM (#16341463)
Where in Ontario? This would be interesting to see for myself.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Sunday February 11, 2018 @04:31PM (#16354945)
Thessalon iirc on Hwy 17.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by aidenn0 on Thursday February 08, 2018 @03:56PM (#16335529)
Plywood is the best combination of strength, weathering resistance, and workability of any material I've yet used. MDF is way cheaper, but it is so much weaker pound-for-pound[1].

1: One carpenter I talked to complained that MDF won't hold screws, and apparently this is a common complaint, but if you drill properly sized pilot holes and use sheetmetal screws it's pull-out strength is fine, particularly since you need thicker MDF than ply, so you can use a longer screw.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by brudgers on Thursday February 08, 2018 @04:10PM (#16335617)
The primary advantage of MDF is dimensional stability. Dimensional stability is highly desirable for surfaces receiving veneers or high pressure ("plastic") laminate finishes. It's not really intended for structural applications, but for furniture and cabinetry it can be a reasonable option.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by Doxin on Friday February 09, 2018 @03:52AM (#16338816)
Another advantage MDF has is that it's heavy. Granted for most things you'd rather have light, but for stuff like speaker cabinets and sound deadening you want heavy.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by Zardoz84 on Friday February 09, 2018 @07:38AM (#16339727)
Also, MDF makes a bad material for speaker cabinets. A good speaker cabinet not only is heavy, it have a really good characterized sound qualities that MDF, plastic or cheap plywood can't give. Because that are expensive!
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by owenversteeg on Thursday February 08, 2018 @01:51PM (#16334524)
Yep, plywood gets a bad rap: it's incredibly strong stuff. Aircraft plywood can be used to build entire aircraft, marine plywood can withstand harsh weather conditions for years, and birch or hardwood plywood can look very pretty.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jordanb on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:09PM (#16337620)
Some plywood is amazing. Most is crap. Generally the stuff you buy at home depot for $25/sheet is crap.

And people tend to confuse plywood with OSB, MDO, MDF, etc.

And while marine plywood (BS-1088) is great stuff, and fir marine plywood is also pretty nice stuff, it's not magic. BS-1088 is will rot in a morning dew and fir checks horribly. You have to protect it carefully and keep it protected.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by gkanai on Thursday February 08, 2018 @07:08PM (#16336732)
Fire treated wood is called 'shou-sugi-ban' in Japanese and is occasionally used in commercial and residential applications. Fire treated wood has the benefit of being naturally fire-resistant, insect resistant, and water/rot resistant while also being a natural treatment (as opposed to a man-made chemical treatment.)

https://shousugiban.org/

https://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-product-design/materi...

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by rjohnk on Friday February 09, 2018 @11:03AM (#16341206)
HGTV's Fixer Upper had an episode where this treatment was used. They were fixing up an old boathouse and decided to use this method for the exterior.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by monochromatic on Thursday February 08, 2018 @01:05PM (#16334135)
There’s also stabilized wood. You basically fill all the space inside the wood with a hard resin. Small pieces are used for things like jewelry, knife scales, etc.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by usrusr on Thursday February 08, 2018 @01:31PM (#16334354)
At what point do we have to stop considering processed wood as wood, but as a wood/resin or wood/adhesive composite?
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by bitwize on Thursday February 08, 2018 @01:52PM (#16334530)
Sometime after we stop considering processed food as food, but a food/sugar or food/preservative composite.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by monochromatic on Thursday February 08, 2018 @05:09PM (#16336040)
Stabilized wood definitely has a lot more in common with resin than with wood, in its mechanical properties.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by ZenoArrow on Thursday February 08, 2018 @04:16PM (#16335661)
Your comment reminded me of a technique that guitar makers have been using in recent years, which is to make wood more stable by roasting it in a kiln (which removes the moisture from the wood, and supposedly increases its stability).
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by bdamm on Thursday February 08, 2018 @05:45PM (#16336258)
If by "recent" you mean developed about 200 years ago, then yes.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by ZenoArrow on Thursday February 08, 2018 @05:52PM (#16336297)
From what I've seen, it's become more popular recently (last 10 years).
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by nugi on Thursday February 08, 2018 @11:06PM (#16337829)
Its a technique older than guitars, not recent at all. Maybe you just took notice?
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by disantlor on Friday February 09, 2018 @12:49AM (#16338178)
well at the very least the technique has been packaged/marketed as “torrefied wood”, and i think that’s what is being referenced here
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by Isamu on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:50AM (#16332882)
There is still a street in Pittsburgh that is end-grain wood blocks. (In Shadyside, a short residential street.) They continue to treat it with tar. So I wonder if it was a similar idea.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by Nav_Panel on Thursday February 08, 2018 @11:48AM (#16333456)
This might be what you're thinking of: http://www.pittsburghmagazine.com/Best-of-the-Burgh-Blogs/Th...

Here's a street view link: https://goo.gl/maps/smQp7BpkgHF2

It's a bit of a random little stub street, so I'd never noticed it during my 4 years of undergrad, but it's a neat lil artifact.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by twic on Thursday February 08, 2018 @06:06PM (#16336385)
There's a tiny amount left in London:

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/01/10/the-time-when-lo...

This seems to be a topic which animates a certain kind of urbanist nerd (of whom Ian Visits is the prince):

http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/wood/

http://www.endgrain.org.uk/history/

That last page is from some Welsh applied research project on using more endgrain wood for surfaces; there's lots more interesting material on that site.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by djtriptych on Thursday February 08, 2018 @11:19AM (#16333208)
Any chance you can find a google street view link for this?
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by kevindqc on Thursday February 08, 2018 @11:23AM (#16333246)
I found this image, but it's from Philadelphia:

http://www.philly.com/philly/living/20151225_Changing_Skylin...

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by bpyne on Thursday February 08, 2018 @09:31AM (#16332203)
Sorry to go on a tangent, but your comment reminded me of a book I read about the Chinese culinary culture pre-revolution. Chinese chefs had, and may still have, wooden cutting boards that were conditioned somehow such that they were as hard as stone. (There was also an implication that they resisted bacteria unlike normal wood boards when not scoured properly.) These boards were passed down from generation to generation.

The bit about the cutting boards being as hard as stone, is that pure hyperbole or is it possible?

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:27AM (#16332633)
Hard as stone is probably meant in a figurative sense, not a literal sense. End-grain wood is pretty hard, especially when compressed (for instance: by beating it with a hammer), but it is nowhere near as hard as stone. That said, there are some pretty soft stones :)

I've broken more than one high quality steel bit on various kinds of wood, but that's usually not a measure of how hard the wood is but how much friction there is between the drill and the wood and how much of the drill bit is inside the wood. If the wood were really hard you would not be able to enter the bit at all and it would never break but just sit there spinning on the surface.

Finally, the whole trick to a cutting board is that end grain wood will wear very little and the knife will be sharp much longer specifically because it is not as hard as stone.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by yeukhon on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:40AM (#16332772)
Yes, many Chinese chefs and households still do use wooden chopping boards. I am not sure if the boards are as hard as stones, since there are many different kinds of stones. But thickness and the type of wooden do matter and will certainly make the wood very hard to crack (and to burn).

Here are some videos for the readers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTNVDH6ZFLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isFTIHy7Duo

You will see pork bone chopping (beginning of the video), skin slicing (1:40), and meat grinding (5:30) in the second video.

Those are very typical boards in a restaurant's kitchen. The typical household chop board is a lot smaller and thinner, probably around 35" wide x 5" high. However, many families have moved away from wooden chopping board because plastic boards are easier to clean.

As far as resistance to bacteria, that will fall short with science. The passing down from generation to generation is a cultural effect. If you live with your in-laws, the board will of course be reused. Since wooden boards don't crack for years, yes, the board will be passed down. Butchers (Chinese and other cultures) use wooden boards because of the durability (Chinese chefs love chopping real fast with force). Real chefs prefer wooden chopping board (yeah, your famous Gordon Ramsay!)

Also, it is very common to see a butcher or a chef to stick the big kitchen knife on the side of the board tilted like the Leaning Tower of Pisa :-) The strength of a real butcher or a real chef can be so much more powerful than a MMA boxer.

EDIT: If you want a short English intro on this topic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDdoht0e1sg is solid.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by cdsboy on Thursday February 08, 2018 @09:36AM (#16332226)
Doesn't having a cutting board as hard as stone defeat the purpose of having a cutting board?
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by dghughes on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:09AM (#16332472)
Isn't the point of a cutting board to protect the counter top from the knife, mobility (move chopped food to another location) and being easy to clean? As opposed to a flat counter top which can get marred with marks, can't move, can be cleaned but not thrown in a sink.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by keevie on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:18AM (#16332558)
I'd say a much more important purpose of a cutting board is to protect the edge of your knife. If you hit the edge of your knife on something really hard, it'll chip, or fold--basically just ruin it. This might not be such a big deal for home cooks with super dull knives (after all, glass cutting boards still exist for some reason!) but for a professional I'd think a cutting board that destroys your knives would be worse than useless.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by fiddlerwoaroof on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:16AM (#16332530)
They also protect the knife blade from damage: if you were to cut directly on stone, the knife hitting the stone would cause it to dull more quickly.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by tonyarkles on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:17AM (#16332544)
Also to provide a less damaging surface for the knife blade.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by Maken on Thursday February 08, 2018 @01:50PM (#16334516)
My guess is that these wood boards would have much less friction than a stone equivalent, unless you had enough money to pay for a polished one.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by tbirrell on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:33AM (#16332713)
The purpose of a cutting board is to protect the things underneath it that are not as hard as stone.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by ivanhoe on Thursday February 08, 2018 @12:08PM (#16333623)
Then you could just use a metal plate or glass, but we use the wood in order to protect the blade of the knife also. You'd have to re-sharp the chef knifes every few minutes if they were used on the surface harder than the blade.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by washadjeffmad on Friday February 09, 2018 @07:06AM (#16339582)
You should, and it's called steeling.

There's a foil edge on very sharp knives that will wrinkle and fold after use on anything, even tomatoes, making the knife feel dull. It's not, and it doesn't require removing metal as with grinding or sharpening, but you can steel to realign that edge or strop to hone it depending on the blade and angle. Even if you don't work with blades often, you've probably seen this depicted in media.

It really doesn't matter what the cutting surface is to the knife if you have great technique. Since I don't always, I use thin, flexible plastic barriers. I would never recommend wood outside of having no other choices or using it as part of presentation, mainly because of cross contamination and difficulty in sanitizing if you cook sous vide or serve raw often.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by ivanhoe on Friday February 09, 2018 @08:24AM (#16339962)
Obviously I meant the stone sharpening, not using the knife steel. And as for the material, many sources say that plastic actually contains more bacteria and that end-grain wood is more gentle to a blade than plastic. On the other hand plastic is easier to clean when it's new, but it's also more prone to cuts than wood and they quickly get dirty (at least in my limited experience). IMHO every board needs to be scraped or sanded from time to time to remove the top layer completely, that's the only way to keep it clean.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by dkarl on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:20AM (#16332578)
You'd destroy your knives/cleavers with a stone cutting board. The wood needs to give a little bit so the blade doesn't chip and holds an edge long enough to be useful. Sounds like pop writing sensationalism, as with Damascus steel, which TV shows imply (or outright state if they have no shame) is better than any steel we currently know how to make.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by Merad on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:50AM (#16332881)
Bamboo cutting boards are often advertised as having anti-microbial properties. No clue if there's any scientific backing to the claim, though.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by dredmorbius on Friday February 09, 2018 @12:37AM (#16338130)
My experience with bamboo is that it's far more vulnerable to mildew than similarly-utilised wood items.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by euroclydon on Thursday February 08, 2018 @08:34AM (#16331927)
Do you mind sharing a picture of this done right? The end grain wood floor pics I found on Google look mostly hideous to me.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by burger_moon on Thursday February 08, 2018 @09:43AM (#16332275)
This used to be very common for machine shops to have wood floors, I found an article detailing it with some pictures. I worked in a couple shops that had wood floors, they were nothing to look at, it was an industrial setting after all. https://web.pa.msu.edu/services/machine-shop/shopfloor.htm

At Amazon in the new Day 1 building their main staircase to the lobby is built from wood ends and it is done very nicely. It looks great. There's probably pictures online of that.

edit, I found one picture from a geekwire article. Unfortunately you can't see the grain, the picture is from a far. https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/20161107...

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by dsfyu404ed on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:16AM (#16332525)
>This used to be very common for machine shops to have wood floors

That is done because wood is soft and if you drop a tool or part on the floor it's far less likely to be damaged. Wood has been superseded by (usually vinyl IIRC) tile and/or rubber/plastic mats in a lot of places.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by bobf on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:30AM (#16332674)
It's also done for the comfort of the people working there. Standing on concrete all day is more tiring than on a wooden floor.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by tudelo on Thursday February 08, 2018 @08:46AM (#16331982)
Not OP, but I found some interesting information here.

http://kaswell.com/about-us/history-of-woodblock/

Looks like it's good for outside flooring. Actually doesn't look that bad when used for that either, kind of like bricks.

(Actual gallery here http://kaswell.com/gallery/)

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by blattimwind on Thursday February 08, 2018 @08:58AM (#16332039)
It also was a traditional flooring for workshops, because it tolerated heavy abuse.

More pics: https://www.google.de/search?q=stirnholzparkett&source=lnms&...

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by Serow225 on Thursday February 08, 2018 @03:42PM (#16335412)
I work at Red Wing Shoe Company, and our office has this type of flooring on the first floor: https://i.imgur.com/arWH5NR.jpg
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Thursday February 08, 2018 @05:46PM (#16336268)
That's gorgeous.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by Serow225 on Friday February 09, 2018 @10:22AM (#16340789)
The labor cost to do it today would be substantial, I'm estimating it's around 4k-5k sqft of 2"x4" blocks!
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by NoNotTheDuo on Thursday February 08, 2018 @11:15AM (#16333151)
Boulevard Brewery in KC has part of their event space floored with end grain. Overview pic: https://www.boulevard.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/BHB-7.j...

Closer up:https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0a/df/ba/b1/...

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by spc476 on Thursday February 08, 2018 @12:36PM (#16333894)
Here's a picture of the floor of the Square Root Restaurant in Brevard NC: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g48979-d...

Each block is 6"x6" (15cm x 15cm) of pine. Apparently it lasts a long time, but took a long time to install.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jpgleeson on Friday February 09, 2018 @07:07PM (#16344931)
The entrance to Trinity College Dublin is an 18th century gatehouse where the floor is made of hexagonal wooden blocks that have weathered quite well.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by cbsmith on Thursday February 08, 2018 @05:59PM (#16336350)
The story does make a lot of references to previous work done, and even has a quote about how this method seems expensive and no better than existing methods.

It looks like the paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25476) provides the detail you are looking for.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by thatcat on Thursday February 08, 2018 @02:57PM (#16335077)
After a bit of searching, the only descriptions of cutting board compression techniques I've been able to find are compressed perpendicular to your description.

Do you have a good source for more info on axially compressed end grain flooring or cutting board construction techniques?

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Thursday February 08, 2018 @03:00PM (#16335103)
https://www.google.nl/search?q=butchers+block&client=firefox...

Plenty of floor links already in this thread.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by thatcat on Thursday February 08, 2018 @04:19PM (#16335684)
There are no links or threads related to axial compression. I guess your original post ment that it is compressed during use rather than constrution.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Thursday February 08, 2018 @05:48PM (#16336280)
It can be either way. The 'during construction' bit is done using compacting hammers and then afterwards it is sanded down again to expose the grain, the pounding can splinter the topmost layer. And after the sanding the floor is nice and smooth, the pounding leaves it somewhat uneven because the wood isn't equal density everywhere.

You can drop a hammer head down on that stuff and it won't even leave a dent.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by nck4222 on Thursday February 08, 2018 @08:28AM (#16331908)
>making it effectively thinner, lighter and stronger at the same time.

The article never says it's lighter, and the paper is behind a paywall. Interesting process none the less.

Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by jacquesm on Thursday February 08, 2018 @10:28AM (#16332647)
It does say it is lighter, it says it removes certain compounds from the wood and then compresses the remainder without further additives. So it is lighter than the original wood but much more dense.
Re:Crushed wood is stronger than steel by nck4222 on Thursday February 08, 2018 @01:50PM (#16334515)
I mean I agree it's likely that the process makes the wood lighter. But no, the article doesn't explicitly say the end result is lighter. It explicitly says it's thinner and stronger.

I don't really know much about the process or whether the chemical treatment can potentially make the wood heavier/absorb some of the liquid, which would offset the weight of the material that's lost.

My point wasn't that there's no way the result is lighter. My point was that the article didn't mention the weight before and after, so it seemed presumptuous to me to claim it was definitely lighter.

I went to check the actual paper to confirm, hit a paywall, and so was unable to verify. I was hoping someone would comment with more details.