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Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by tambourine_man on Sunday January 28, 2018 @09:35AM (#16251430)
I think High Sierra is the worst Mac OS release yet.

I’m sure there’s a cognitive bias partially to blame (since it’s the most recent) but it looks like we are way past that.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by wsc981 on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:15AM (#16251578)
As long as we are talking about anecdotical evidence: my MBP with High Sierra has been running fine for the last few months. I haven't encountered any issues in my day-to-day work as iOS app developer and neither in my home use. I think it's a pretty decent release, though it didn't add any new features that I feel I really need.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by st3fan on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:19AM (#16251602)
Same here. My only reboots have been for system & security updates. No kernel panics. Stable as a rock.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ksk on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:33PM (#16286112)
Are you using anecdote to mean 'not factual/confirmed' or simply to mean 'single data point'? I understand that its common to switch between the two meanings. I can usually guess from the context but its unclear from your comment.

In any case, I would say that even a single data point of a kernel crashing bug is cause for concern.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ascom on Sunday January 28, 2018 @11:20AM (#16251868)
Actually, my mid-2014 13" rMBP randomly reboots on High Sierra, even on a clean install. It leaves no trace of anything in any logs. I had to downgrade to Sierra.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by alyandon on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:24AM (#16251621)
My 2017 MBP hard locked once shortly after upgrading to High Sierra but it hasn't done it since.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by fiddlerwoaroof on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:18AM (#16266465)
I hit this bug when using htop
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by danieltillett on Sunday January 28, 2018 @03:47PM (#16253368)
10.0 was pretty bad - as in unusably bad. Like everyone I really miss snow leopard.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by marssaxman on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @09:28PM (#16270850)
"Snow leopard" was 10.6, was it not? 10.6.8 was the best OS X ever. I wish I could have stuck with it forever, but that machine eventually died and the replacement wouldn't boot under anything older than 10.9. Someday I'm sure I'll be forced to "upgrade" again, but in the meantime I'm leaving things well enough alone.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by danieltillett on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @08:17PM (#16279025)
Yes Snow Leopard is 10.6. In retrospect, 10.6.8 was the high point for MacOS X.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pilsetnieks on Sunday January 28, 2018 @04:22PM (#16253590)
> 10.0 was pretty bad - as in unusably bad

That's why they gave everyone free CDs with 10.1.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by lmb on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:44AM (#16251699)
The mach kernels in general are buggy, regardless of the release. e.g. I'm pretty sure they end up delivering SIGPIPE to the wrong thread in some circumstances on Sierra. There is also a problem with recvmsg not returning control messages some time.

Another reason they killed OS X Server maybe.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by astrodust on Sunday January 28, 2018 @01:20PM (#16252463)
They killed server because that was a losing battle: Apple was never going to "win" at servers. Despite all their effort they managed to score only a few modest wins, and the intense competition in that space made it a huge distraction.

Remember Apple started down the "server" road decades ago with their A/UX UNIX server (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A/UX). Throughout the 1990s you could get a high-end Mac spec'd as a UNIX machine if you wanted, though I've only ever seen a handful in the wild.

The introduction of a special-purpose server was an anomaly, the Xserve had no specific predecessor, perhaps some kind of "go big or go home" effort on Apple's part.

While that system wasn't bad by the standards of the time, it couldn't compete with the likes of Dell, HP and others who offered way more flexibility on configuration and who would seemingly sell super budget low-end servers at a loss to lock people into their product line so they can squeeze them on support costs, a model Apple's allergic to.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pjmlp on Sunday January 28, 2018 @04:39PM (#16253703)
Still it did fulfil a market, servers for Apple shops.

Now there is only Mac minis for it.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by astrodust on Monday January 29, 2018 @12:53PM (#16259210)
Even then they realized it was a losing battle. Apple is an Apple shop and even they couldn't use their own gear at scale. I'm sure when the Xserve team saw racks and racks and racks of generic kit in Apple's own datacentres they realized they weren't going to win.

You're right that the Mini is a very capable workgroup server, and providers like http://macminicolo.net/ are hosting Mac "servers" by the thousands, so it's not like they've completely given up. Intel's the only other player in this space with their NUC machines and those tend to cost as much or more.

Hopefully they'll kit out the Mini better in the 2018 iterations. That 2012 quad-code i7 variant was an exceptional unit.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pjmlp on Sunday January 28, 2018 @12:39PM (#16252222)
To be fair, the whole story about signals and threads on UNIX OSes is not that clean.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by 0x0 on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:49PM (#16253073)
On the other hand, the Darwin kernel also powers iOS, and Apple seems to be eager to keep the system secure so that the App Store appears trustworthy. While a local privilege escalation might seem dull on macOS, the fact that the same flaw might affect iOS where untrustworthy local apps need to be sandboxed is probably the saving grace for Macs.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by madaxe_again on Sunday January 28, 2018 @09:57AM (#16251514)
Qualitatively, it feels like apple’s software quality has been on a slide for several years.

What attracted me to move to Mac OS in the first place some 15 years ago was the sheer quality. It was thrilling to use a computer that Just Worked, with no BSODs or the endless dependency hell that was Linux at the time.

It doesn’t feel like that any more, across either OSX or iOS - it feels fragile. Things crash, behaviours are inconsistent, and it feels like more emphasis has been placed on immediate commerciality than long term retention through quality.

For what it’s worth, I’m in the process of moving to Linux on my MBP. The pros of OSX just aren’t as strong any more.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by st3fan on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:22AM (#16251614)
Thank goodness that Linux is consistent and has no bugs :-)

Ubuntu still doesn't let me change my IP address to a static one via the UI and video drivers still crash or result in hours of googling and reading contradicting articles on how to change xorg.conf

Software has bugs. Operating systems are hard. It doesn't matter where you will go, you will most likely deal with similar issues. Whether it be Linux, Windows or macOS.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by nxc18 on Sunday January 28, 2018 @11:56AM (#16252026)
The difference is you pay a huge premium for Apple products, Linux distros are generally free (unless you want enterprise-style support).

The same criticism applies to Windows - give it away for free and I might care less about crashes and the huge slide in quality over the last ~5 years.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by derefr on Sunday January 28, 2018 @03:47PM (#16253370)
You’re not paying for the OS; you’re paying for the hardware. If Macintosh hardware was buggy when running Linux or Windows, for reasons to do with, say, badly-written ACPI tables, then you’d have an argument.

As it is, it’s the opposite: Macs run both Windows and Linux “easily”, while other vendors’ buggy hardware has to be patched over with heuristics in these OSes because it has non-conforming device names, responses to introspection queries, etc. Apple hardware is uniquely well-engineered. If you’re writing your own hobbyist OS, it’s a breath of fresh air to run it on a Mac, compared to other kinds of PCs.

This is, coincidentally, also the reason it’s so hard to run macOS on other vendors’ machines. Windows and Linux paper over all the brokenness in hardware land, and so machines built for Windows/Linux rely on these heuristics with sloppy integration work. Apple, meanwhile, just does the integration to the standard in their hardware, and then relies on said standards-conformance in their OS. If everyone conformed to hardware ABI standards as well as Apple does, Hackintoshing would be a matter of just dropping a patched dont-steal-osx.kext into your install disc and calling it good. Everything else you have to do is the hardware vendors’ fault.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by Sephr on Sunday January 28, 2018 @06:16PM (#16254191)
You will not find significant fundamental hardware differences between the latest high-end Apple and Dell laptops.

> As it is, it’s the opposite: Macs run both Windows and Linux “easily”, while other vendors’ buggy hardware has to be patched over with heuristics in these OSes because it has non-conforming device names

> This is, coincidentally, also the reason it’s so hard to run macOS on other vendors’ machines

Are you not aware that OS X does various explicit checks to make sure it is running on approved hardware, regardless of compatibility and capability attestation? Apple doesn't want OS X running on non-Apple hardware.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by derefr on Sunday January 28, 2018 @06:33PM (#16254264)
> various explicit checks to make sure it is running on approved hardware

Er, yes, that's the "dont-steal-osx.kext" that I mentioned. My point was that thwarting those checks is a very small part of getting macOS to run on a system (and is a solved problem—if it was all that was required, Hackintoshing would be a one-and-done thing, rather than something that breaks on every system update.)

The majority of the (continuing) effort of getting macOS to run on arbitrary hardware—hardware that, by its components, should be compatible with macOS's drivers—is dealing with vendors' whack-ass "doesn't even pass static analysis using Intel's own provided AML compiler" DSDTs (which macOS rightfully tosses its hands up at, but which Windows and Linux heuristically munge into something barely passable and then use it.)

> latest high-end Apple and Dell laptops

Dell (along with HP and Lenovo) are the better vendors as far as spec-compliance goes. Really, any of the PC makers who have an "enterprise workstation" arm, have the in-house expertise for things like ACPI compliance, or UEFI compliance, or PXE compliance, etc. But other vendors? Acer? LG? Xiaomi? Razer? Better to not even try.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by taeric on Sunday January 28, 2018 @08:50PM (#16254790)
I do miss the track pad from the Mac. The newer ones are gigantic. To the point that that is the only part of my budget laptop that is laughable bad.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by hoopladler on Monday January 29, 2018 @06:12PM (#16261452)
I'm a bit skeptical about your claim that apple hardware is well engineered. I think they pick aesthetics over function, to the point that functionality is compromised - leading to computers that overheat.

The result is they have a lot of problems with tin whiskers. Which is why you'll find about a billion forum threads about people baking their macs in ovens, and similar hijinks.

Granted, if you're not using a mac for anything that intensively uses the hardware (for instance, just text editing) you'll never run into this problem.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by st3fan on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:23PM (#16252911)
I'm happy to pay a premium to never again have to deal with xorg.conf. All platforms come with a cost.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by madaxe_again on Sunday January 28, 2018 @03:05PM (#16253145)
Yeah, except 15 years ago it was xf86config with xinerama if you wanted multiple heads, and lcds are a walk in the park compared to CRTs - I actually killed a nice 21” monitor by screwing up the frequencies. I even recall the delightful process of having to modify graphics drivers to work with the bizarre Chips&Technologies integrated graphics I had. At that point, OSX was such a breath of fresh air.

Xorg.conf is a delightful stroll through a meadow compared to the nightmare fuel that came before, and in setting Linux (Kali,Ubuntu) on several machines of various spec over the last weeks, it has Just Worked.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by foepys on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:57PM (#16253113)
FWIW, X configures itself nowadays and Wayland also just works. But I know where you are coming from. Everything audio related for example is still in very bad shape when you want more than Intel HDA.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pjmlp on Sunday January 28, 2018 @04:36PM (#16253688)
Canonical is not of the same opinion, they just gave up on Wayland for the next LTS release.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by vurpo on Monday January 29, 2018 @09:00AM (#16257480)
Wayland may be ready for default in Ubuntu and Fedora, but they clearly didn't consider it ready for LTS. They have already said the next non-LTS version will still have Wayland as default.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by sneak on Sunday January 28, 2018 @05:23PM (#16253942)
Now try hotplugging an external display.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pjmlp on Sunday January 28, 2018 @12:36PM (#16252206)
My Ubuntu 16.04 LTS X-Windows just froze today multiple times, not even changing to virtual terminals was possible, only hard reboot.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ShabbosGoy on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:27PM (#16252935)
I spent hours last night trying to get Bumblebee to work with my Optimus laptop. Ubuntu is a great plug-and-play distribution, except when it isn’t.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ensiferum on Sunday January 28, 2018 @07:27PM (#16254491)
Optimus is a piece of shit even on windows.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ShabbosGoy on Sunday January 28, 2018 @08:46PM (#16254781)
Facing that right now :-(

Optimus is one of those ideas that’s cool on paper, but horribly implemented.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by marmaduke on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:23PM (#16252913)
Re Ubuntu and docs, this something where I find CentOS valuable: it moves slowly but is very stable. I’ve never seen network issues on CentOS on cli or GUI. Red hat also puts out great comprehensive docs so you don’t have to dredge the forums.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ksk on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:35PM (#16286136)
Yes, all software has bugs. And pretty much all modern operating systems are good. But some are better than others in much the same way as all Olympic 100m runners are fast but some are faster than others.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by tambourine_man on Sunday January 28, 2018 @11:09AM (#16251801)
>Software has bugs. Operating systems are hard.

Sure, but it doesn't help when you are rewriting fundamental parts of the stack like the window server, for instance.

And I'm very glad that they did, the move to Metal shows they are committed to the Mac and not standing still. Just don't treat us as involuntary beta testers.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by __david__ on Sunday January 28, 2018 @12:14PM (#16252098)
Except their window system rewrite actually slowed everything down. Every single os release has added bugs to the graphics layer. I've been maintaining a simple little screensaver since Mac os beta (almost 20 years old now) and the last 3 or 4 releases there's always something that breaks it. Bug reports go unheeded.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by tambourine_man on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:10PM (#16252827)
May I ask which screen saver?
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by icebraining on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:33AM (#16251657)
Ubuntu still doesn't let me change my IP address to a static one via the UI

What do you mean? It doesn't get applied?

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by st3fan on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:55AM (#16251740)
That is right. I fill in the fields, then submit the change and nothing happens and it jumps back to DHCP. Always have to just edit the network settings manually.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by braderhart on Sunday January 28, 2018 @11:55AM (#16252018)
Sorry, but Ubuntu and Gnome NetworkManager issues do not equate to issues with Linux. They are very distro and window manager specific.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pjmlp on Sunday January 28, 2018 @12:37PM (#16252212)
Regular users see a full distro experience as Linux, they don't dissociate kernel and userland.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by marmaduke on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:21PM (#16252902)
Not sure why your comment is grayed out. This is very much true, and part of the reason I run CentOS when I want infrastructure to work 24/7/365, but eg Fedora for testing new software.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:30AM (#16251647)
I found OS X to be incredibly buggy at release. I think 10.2 was fairly stable, but I had a lot of issues before that.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by daxelrod on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:38AM (#16251675)
Agreed. 10.2 was the first OS X release that felt usable day-to-day without running into too many bugs, annoyingly missing features, or frustrating UI decisions.

10.4 felt like the first version that was a pleasure to use. It felt like the polish had finally caught up with OS 9.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by lemoncucumber on Sunday January 28, 2018 @01:46PM (#16252636)
IMO, 10.6 was still the best release. Wish they would do another “no new features” release one of these years.