News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by madaxe_again on Sunday January 28, 2018 @09:57AM (#16251514)
Qualitatively, it feels like apple’s software quality has been on a slide for several years.

What attracted me to move to Mac OS in the first place some 15 years ago was the sheer quality. It was thrilling to use a computer that Just Worked, with no BSODs or the endless dependency hell that was Linux at the time.

It doesn’t feel like that any more, across either OSX or iOS - it feels fragile. Things crash, behaviours are inconsistent, and it feels like more emphasis has been placed on immediate commerciality than long term retention through quality.

For what it’s worth, I’m in the process of moving to Linux on my MBP. The pros of OSX just aren’t as strong any more.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by st3fan on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:22AM (#16251614)
Thank goodness that Linux is consistent and has no bugs :-)

Ubuntu still doesn't let me change my IP address to a static one via the UI and video drivers still crash or result in hours of googling and reading contradicting articles on how to change xorg.conf

Software has bugs. Operating systems are hard. It doesn't matter where you will go, you will most likely deal with similar issues. Whether it be Linux, Windows or macOS.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by nxc18 on Sunday January 28, 2018 @11:56AM (#16252026)
The difference is you pay a huge premium for Apple products, Linux distros are generally free (unless you want enterprise-style support).

The same criticism applies to Windows - give it away for free and I might care less about crashes and the huge slide in quality over the last ~5 years.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by derefr on Sunday January 28, 2018 @03:47PM (#16253370)
You’re not paying for the OS; you’re paying for the hardware. If Macintosh hardware was buggy when running Linux or Windows, for reasons to do with, say, badly-written ACPI tables, then you’d have an argument.

As it is, it’s the opposite: Macs run both Windows and Linux “easily”, while other vendors’ buggy hardware has to be patched over with heuristics in these OSes because it has non-conforming device names, responses to introspection queries, etc. Apple hardware is uniquely well-engineered. If you’re writing your own hobbyist OS, it’s a breath of fresh air to run it on a Mac, compared to other kinds of PCs.

This is, coincidentally, also the reason it’s so hard to run macOS on other vendors’ machines. Windows and Linux paper over all the brokenness in hardware land, and so machines built for Windows/Linux rely on these heuristics with sloppy integration work. Apple, meanwhile, just does the integration to the standard in their hardware, and then relies on said standards-conformance in their OS. If everyone conformed to hardware ABI standards as well as Apple does, Hackintoshing would be a matter of just dropping a patched dont-steal-osx.kext into your install disc and calling it good. Everything else you have to do is the hardware vendors’ fault.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by Sephr on Sunday January 28, 2018 @06:16PM (#16254191)
You will not find significant fundamental hardware differences between the latest high-end Apple and Dell laptops.

> As it is, it’s the opposite: Macs run both Windows and Linux “easily”, while other vendors’ buggy hardware has to be patched over with heuristics in these OSes because it has non-conforming device names

> This is, coincidentally, also the reason it’s so hard to run macOS on other vendors’ machines

Are you not aware that OS X does various explicit checks to make sure it is running on approved hardware, regardless of compatibility and capability attestation? Apple doesn't want OS X running on non-Apple hardware.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by derefr on Sunday January 28, 2018 @06:33PM (#16254264)
> various explicit checks to make sure it is running on approved hardware

Er, yes, that's the "dont-steal-osx.kext" that I mentioned. My point was that thwarting those checks is a very small part of getting macOS to run on a system (and is a solved problem—if it was all that was required, Hackintoshing would be a one-and-done thing, rather than something that breaks on every system update.)

The majority of the (continuing) effort of getting macOS to run on arbitrary hardware—hardware that, by its components, should be compatible with macOS's drivers—is dealing with vendors' whack-ass "doesn't even pass static analysis using Intel's own provided AML compiler" DSDTs (which macOS rightfully tosses its hands up at, but which Windows and Linux heuristically munge into something barely passable and then use it.)

> latest high-end Apple and Dell laptops

Dell (along with HP and Lenovo) are the better vendors as far as spec-compliance goes. Really, any of the PC makers who have an "enterprise workstation" arm, have the in-house expertise for things like ACPI compliance, or UEFI compliance, or PXE compliance, etc. But other vendors? Acer? LG? Xiaomi? Razer? Better to not even try.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by taeric on Sunday January 28, 2018 @08:50PM (#16254790)
I do miss the track pad from the Mac. The newer ones are gigantic. To the point that that is the only part of my budget laptop that is laughable bad.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by hoopladler on Monday January 29, 2018 @06:12PM (#16261452)
I'm a bit skeptical about your claim that apple hardware is well engineered. I think they pick aesthetics over function, to the point that functionality is compromised - leading to computers that overheat.

The result is they have a lot of problems with tin whiskers. Which is why you'll find about a billion forum threads about people baking their macs in ovens, and similar hijinks.

Granted, if you're not using a mac for anything that intensively uses the hardware (for instance, just text editing) you'll never run into this problem.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by st3fan on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:23PM (#16252911)
I'm happy to pay a premium to never again have to deal with xorg.conf. All platforms come with a cost.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by madaxe_again on Sunday January 28, 2018 @03:05PM (#16253145)
Yeah, except 15 years ago it was xf86config with xinerama if you wanted multiple heads, and lcds are a walk in the park compared to CRTs - I actually killed a nice 21” monitor by screwing up the frequencies. I even recall the delightful process of having to modify graphics drivers to work with the bizarre Chips&Technologies integrated graphics I had. At that point, OSX was such a breath of fresh air.

Xorg.conf is a delightful stroll through a meadow compared to the nightmare fuel that came before, and in setting Linux (Kali,Ubuntu) on several machines of various spec over the last weeks, it has Just Worked.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by foepys on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:57PM (#16253113)
FWIW, X configures itself nowadays and Wayland also just works. But I know where you are coming from. Everything audio related for example is still in very bad shape when you want more than Intel HDA.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pjmlp on Sunday January 28, 2018 @04:36PM (#16253688)
Canonical is not of the same opinion, they just gave up on Wayland for the next LTS release.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by vurpo on Monday January 29, 2018 @09:00AM (#16257480)
Wayland may be ready for default in Ubuntu and Fedora, but they clearly didn't consider it ready for LTS. They have already said the next non-LTS version will still have Wayland as default.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by sneak on Sunday January 28, 2018 @05:23PM (#16253942)
Now try hotplugging an external display.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pjmlp on Sunday January 28, 2018 @12:36PM (#16252206)
My Ubuntu 16.04 LTS X-Windows just froze today multiple times, not even changing to virtual terminals was possible, only hard reboot.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ShabbosGoy on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:27PM (#16252935)
I spent hours last night trying to get Bumblebee to work with my Optimus laptop. Ubuntu is a great plug-and-play distribution, except when it isn’t.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ensiferum on Sunday January 28, 2018 @07:27PM (#16254491)
Optimus is a piece of shit even on windows.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ShabbosGoy on Sunday January 28, 2018 @08:46PM (#16254781)
Facing that right now :-(

Optimus is one of those ideas that’s cool on paper, but horribly implemented.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by marmaduke on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:23PM (#16252913)
Re Ubuntu and docs, this something where I find CentOS valuable: it moves slowly but is very stable. I’ve never seen network issues on CentOS on cli or GUI. Red hat also puts out great comprehensive docs so you don’t have to dredge the forums.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by ksk on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:35PM (#16286136)
Yes, all software has bugs. And pretty much all modern operating systems are good. But some are better than others in much the same way as all Olympic 100m runners are fast but some are faster than others.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by tambourine_man on Sunday January 28, 2018 @11:09AM (#16251801)
>Software has bugs. Operating systems are hard.

Sure, but it doesn't help when you are rewriting fundamental parts of the stack like the window server, for instance.

And I'm very glad that they did, the move to Metal shows they are committed to the Mac and not standing still. Just don't treat us as involuntary beta testers.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by __david__ on Sunday January 28, 2018 @12:14PM (#16252098)
Except their window system rewrite actually slowed everything down. Every single os release has added bugs to the graphics layer. I've been maintaining a simple little screensaver since Mac os beta (almost 20 years old now) and the last 3 or 4 releases there's always something that breaks it. Bug reports go unheeded.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by tambourine_man on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:10PM (#16252827)
May I ask which screen saver?
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by icebraining on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:33AM (#16251657)
Ubuntu still doesn't let me change my IP address to a static one via the UI

What do you mean? It doesn't get applied?

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by st3fan on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:55AM (#16251740)
That is right. I fill in the fields, then submit the change and nothing happens and it jumps back to DHCP. Always have to just edit the network settings manually.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by braderhart on Sunday January 28, 2018 @11:55AM (#16252018)
Sorry, but Ubuntu and Gnome NetworkManager issues do not equate to issues with Linux. They are very distro and window manager specific.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by pjmlp on Sunday January 28, 2018 @12:37PM (#16252212)
Regular users see a full distro experience as Linux, they don't dissociate kernel and userland.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by marmaduke on Sunday January 28, 2018 @02:21PM (#16252902)
Not sure why your comment is grayed out. This is very much true, and part of the reason I run CentOS when I want infrastructure to work 24/7/365, but eg Fedora for testing new software.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by Retric on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:30AM (#16251647)
I found OS X to be incredibly buggy at release. I think 10.2 was fairly stable, but I had a lot of issues before that.
Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by daxelrod on Sunday January 28, 2018 @10:38AM (#16251675)
Agreed. 10.2 was the first OS X release that felt usable day-to-day without running into too many bugs, annoyingly missing features, or frustrating UI decisions.

10.4 felt like the first version that was a pleasure to use. It felt like the polish had finally caught up with OS 9.

Re:I think I found a Mac kernel bug? by lemoncucumber on Sunday January 28, 2018 @01:46PM (#16252636)
IMO, 10.6 was still the best release. Wish they would do another “no new features” release one of these years.