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Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Someone1234 on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:13PM (#15965353)
I feel like more transparency would have been welcomed, but aside from that this is a "no win" situation, since you have to pick a winner:

- Do you degrade performance but leave screen-on time relatively unchanged?

- Do you degrade screen-on time but leave performance relatively unchanged?

Most Android devices seem to do the opposite (lose screen-on time, but keep performance relatively unchanged). Different people will have a different perspective on what the "right" strategy is for this, but I think we can all agree that better transparency and maybe even leaving it to the consumer to make the choice would be welcome.

PS - "Planned obsolescence" only applies if Apple was doing this artificially. It seems like if they didn't degrade performance you'd lose screen-on time instead, so you'd still likely replace the handset and perhaps even sooner (since core services e.g. calling, texting, etc, work even with lower performance but not on a phone out of juice).

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by mastax on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:59PM (#15966036)
> Do you degrade screen-on time but leave performance relatively unchanged?

I don't think Screen on Time is the concern (though I admit that article isn't extremely clear). Given that devices were shutting down at 40% capacity I think it was more of a brown-out condition, where the device shut down despite having more energy left in the battery.

Given:

1. Battery voltage decreases as charge decreases.

2. Battery voltage sags as current draw increases, due to internal resistance.

3. Internal resistance increases with battery wear.

4. If battery voltage drops too low the phone will turn off.

a moment of high current draw could cause a device to suddenly shut down. Since this issue was endemic to 6S devices, perhaps some unusually large number of those batteries had unusually high internal resistance due to wear.

If this were the case the fix would be to reduce peak power draw and thus peak performance. This change would be especially evident in geekbench, but could also affect regular usage since mobile devices typically try to alternate (sleep) -> (high performance) -> (sleep).

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by ohyes on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @08:30PM (#15966209)
The solution is a battery you can replace, like every phone used to have.

There aren’t only two solutions to this problem.

(Technically you can still replace the iPhone battery, unfortunately it isn’t trivial like in the bad old days when phones didn’t have high def touch screens.)

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by jamesrom on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @09:19PM (#15966479)
This isn't a solution. It's a trade off like every other decision.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by ohyes on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @09:47PM (#15966600)
Yeah thats true it’s a tradeoff, but by that definition there are no solutions to anything.

So I’d argue it’s both a solution and a tradeoff.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by asimpletune on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @10:39PM (#15966854)
There are definitely still solutions.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Whitestrake on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:23AM (#15967213)
Other than:

1. Allow performance to degrade

2. Allow longevity to degrade

3. Allow the battery to be replaced

4. Some revolutionary battery technology that doesn't degrade??

What solutions are you thinking of?

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by ohyes on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @04:37AM (#15968252)
Well, they've actually done kinetic charging smartphones, but it had a battery and i believe it was extremely expensive.

So if you did that and instead of a battery combined it with a (relatively large) capacitor (or some sort of amazing spring) you could have the iPhone equivalent of a shake and shine flashlight. (One bonus being that there would be absolutely no holes, as it would not be possible to charge it via a wall outlet).

It would be completely impractical, but there wouldn't be a battery, so the battery wouldn't degrade. The alternative storage mechanism might degrade, and who knows what all of the shaking would do to the delicate electronics, likely nothing good.

Anyway, I think it'll catch on. I look forward to watching young people on the train shake their iPhone vigorously before making a silly face and taking a picture of themselves in 10 years time.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by rileymat2 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:37AM (#15967516)
Let the user toggle between 1 and 2? Which could be useful for new phones where, even though currently full, you know you won’t be able to charge next.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Fnoord on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @04:17AM (#15968160)
> Let the user toggle between 1 and 2?

Wrong company, pal. Apple historically decides for the user. Heck, they still do it with their App Store. Often that may go right, but not always.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by evilduck on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:02PM (#15973221)
Apple already includes a low power mode toggle. It could be updated or altered to account for this.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Whitestrake on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @06:28PM (#15974869)
For comparison, my Samsung phones have had CPU underclocking in the low power modes. I'm not sure if that's true of all Androids or not.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by znpy on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:43AM (#15967543)
Immagine having a car whose gas tank you are not allowed to refill...
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:04AM (#15969152)
Imagine a car with a gas tank that shrinks over time, and whose top speed drops accordingly.

Imagine that some cars allow the gas tank to be changed by the user. But this one doesn't.

Imagine the company that makes the car never mentions the shrinkage or the gradual reduction in top speed, and has no program or system that allows you to fix this - beyond buying a newer car.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by schrodinger on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:23AM (#15969245)
>Imagine the company that makes the car never mentions the shrinkage or the gradual reduction in top speed, and has no program or system that allows you to fix this - beyond buying a newer car. They'll replace the battery for you, or there are a ton of 3rd party places that'll do it.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by pulse7 on Friday December 22, 2017 @08:11AM (#15987154)
Car producer must by law provide spare parts for 10 years. It should be per law that the battery is exchangeable.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by morganvachon on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:23AM (#15968957)
Besides the fact that car/device analogies are always flawed, yours is approaching it from the wrong angle in the first place. The "tank" is the physical battery, and we "refill" it by recharging it. Apple wouldn't stop its users from recharging the phone, that would be insane.

To try to salvage your analogy, I'll put forth an anecdote. Last year I restored my deceased father's 1988 Bronco II. One of the issues it had was low fuel pressure, which I narrowed down to the in-tank fuel pump (the Bronco was over-engineered and had two pumps, one in the tank and one on the frame). It wasn't able to push fuel fast enough for the engine to run at top performance. Sound familiar? So I had two choices, replace it myself or take it to a shop, kind of like how you can attempt to replace your phone's battery if you know what you're doing, or take it to a repair shop and let a pro do it for a fee. I'm a competent shadetree mechanic, so I did it myself and saved a few hundred dollars, and it is back to normal operation again.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by nkristoffersen on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:55AM (#15967585)
And yet, in this analogy, you can refill/recharge the tank/battery. And if your tank/battery becomes faulty, you can replace the tank/battery. Just like reality :-)
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by ballenf on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:47AM (#15967330)
iPhones do have replaceable batteries, only not DIY. It's like $80 w/o warranty or AppleCare.

I've bought dozens of Android replacement batteries and the only batteries worth the cost of shipping were actual real OEM ones. And those always cost >$60. Knockoffs would start out decent and then die within a few weeks to months.

Apple's approach gets my vote. You get the upside of built-in battery and the peace of mind when you do need a replacement.

[Just to balance that, let me be clear that Apple's choice with regard to crippling my phone pisses me off. I just replaced an iPhone 6 that felt painfully slow and now I know why (I had tested the battery and it was at 75% -- I didn't realize replacing it would speed up the phone).]

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Fnoord on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @04:13AM (#15968140)
> iPhones do have replaceable batteries, only not DIY. It's like $80 w/o warranty or AppleCare.

The easiness of replacing the battery has gone up with iPhone 7/8/X compared to iPhone 6. You can verify this on iFixit guides. The iPhone 6 is _relatively_ easy to replace because you don't need say a heatgun. You do need some special screwdrivers which you gotta buy. You can, on iFixit. I just bought a whole kit (on sale during Black Friday).

> I've bought dozens of Android replacement batteries and the only batteries worth the cost of shipping were actual real OEM ones. And those always cost >$60.

20 EUR for mine: https://shop.fairphone.com/en/spare-parts/fairphone-2-batter...

Replacing any parts on my phone is very easy. Only thing is that the main module with CPU board etc is ~300 EUR.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by lostlogin on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:24AM (#15967702)
> iPhones do have replaceable batteries, only not DIY

It really is DIY. There are thousands of guide that can be followed successfully.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by alkonaut on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:28AM (#15967947)
It's pretty tricky though, and even for a tinkerer it's not trivial. I changed screens, home buttons etc, and find that much easier than changing batteries. I haven't failed to replace a screen on neither the 5 or the 6, but I failed with a battery on the 6, due to broken battery tab and not enough guts to heat/bend it out (I left it for someone else).

Now, I completely agree with the design decisions of the iPhone. The completely sealed body is great for water resistance and having the battery replaced is still pretty cheap, especially if you use (I usually just let someone replace with a 3rd party battery for cheap, as this usually takes place after warranty expired).

The battery needs to have extra space (or bad things will happen) so it effectively has to be fixed on one side inside the body. Gluing it is a pretty cheap solution to that problem.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by nbanks on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:43AM (#15967541)
I replace my iPhone battery with a cheap one off eBay every year or two when something else breaks. Battery life is pretty good, but the screen pops up now making the phone 0.5mm thicker. It's doing OK for a 5 year old phone, but my friends can't believe I paid $800 for an iPhone 5.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by terminalcommand on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @05:00AM (#15968359)
If the screen is popping up, that condition might be trigerred by a swollen battery.

My iPhone 5 also did that, after a while, it worsened so much that the screen colors became affected. I took it to an apple store, paid the fee and had them replace the battery.

IMHO a swollen battery is a huge risk, and apple should have replaced my phone without charge.

Anyways, be careful and if the battery is swollen, it's time for yet another battery change :)

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by nbanks on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:19PM (#15972806)
My first battery was definitely swollen, and this may be why the screen doesn't snap back into place.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by coldtea on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:55AM (#15968053)
>I replace my iPhone battery with a cheap one off eBay

A great way to increase the odds of an explosion near your face or office desk!

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by ghostbrainalpha on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @10:32AM (#15970386)
I don't understand. Why did you pay $800 for an iPhone 5?
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by azurelogic on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:08PM (#15972706)
Maybe the poster is talking about total sunk cost of phone and all of the batteries
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by nbanks on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:18PM (#15972797)
That's what a 64GB iPhone 5 cost at the time.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by mschuster91 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @04:40AM (#15968272)
> unfortunately it isn’t trivial

With a good heat gun and toolkit, it's doable in anything from 15-30 min (more if the case is bent or damaged from falls).

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by krylon on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @05:45AM (#15968552)
That pretty much meets my definition of "not trivial".

In most Android phones (the ones I have used, at least), replacing the battery took less than one minute.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by MBCook on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:44PM (#15965609)
If anything his seems like a reaction to the yearly ‘planned obselescense’ stuff where people claim Apple killed their battery life to make them upgrade.

People don’t want to lose battery life? Ok, we can adjust so it doesn’t change much over the life of the phone.

Of course that just lead to ‘Apple slows your phone down’.

You’re right, it’s a tough spot.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by MBCook on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:58PM (#15965711)
Another idea: Apple could pop up a dialog at a certain point saying your battery is sub-optimal (but not doomed) and you should replace it for the best experience.

I’m sure that would go over GREAT.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by jakobegger on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:49AM (#15967343)
The battery settings do say "battery needs service" once the battery is degraded, and most people are aware that their battery is bad.

Most people don't understand that the degraded battery is the cause of the performance issues (its not very intuitive), so they should explicitely say that.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by thesmok on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:41AM (#15967774)
My iPhone 6S CPU freq is now capped at 911 MHz, which is half the nominal freq. Battery settings say nothing about that.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by manmal on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:23AM (#15967921)
I‘ve never seen this notification once, having had multiple iPhones that browned-out at 40%.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by tkxxx7 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @05:49PM (#15974601)
It's not a notification; you have to poke around in Settings.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by rconti on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:07PM (#15965769)
My 2011 MacBook Air has been saying this for YEARS
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by MBCook on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:20PM (#15965844)
I know they do it when the battery gets really bad, they could move it up to happen sooner. I just imagine it would fit into the planned obsolescence narrative too easily.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by lucaspiller on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:26AM (#15967229)
My 2014 MBA has recently started saying this, but I haven’t noticed any sudden change in battery life, I still get 5-6 hours.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by finaliteration on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:23AM (#15967694)
It’s based on a certain number of charge “cycles” and not necessarily actual remaining capacity. When I was working as a “Genius” equivalent for an Apple reseller about five years back the number of cycles before that warning would pop up was around 500.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by akuji1993 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @06:10AM (#15968658)
500 seems like a fairly low number to me, I'm surprised it's not more like 1000.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by dmethvin on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @08:17PM (#15966130)
That would cost Apple a lot if those people had Apple Care. Better for Apple if the minority people who perceive a problem come in and ask for a replacement/
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by pfranz on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @09:43PM (#15966584)
That wouldn't be any different from now or what they do with laptops.

For laptops, as part of their hardware test they had a chart for the battery. The expected cycle count was listed in quite a few places (it was 200 for removable batteries and jumped to 1000 when they started making them non-removable). X was the cycle count and Y was the battery's maximum charge (I tried to find pics, but couldn't). The chart had a diagonal red line marked "defective." They replaced your battery if it was within the defective range, but not if your cycle count was too high.

Phones aren't any different, they're just more hand-wavy about the battery (they don't show or mention cycle-counts).

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by jdavis703 on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @09:17PM (#15966471)
They can just exclude normal battery wear, or they could increase the price of iPhone Apple Care to include one free battery replacement and then advertise that you're basiclly getting a free battery.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by delecti on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:46PM (#15965974)
I think out of the two options, Apple picked the far more deceptive one, or at least the one that will be perceived to be deceptive (which IMO is the same thing). Few people would be surprised that batteries degrade over time, eventually causing noticeable drops in battery life, many people seem surprised that performance is intentionally and artificially reduced over time.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by tbrock on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @11:39PM (#15967095)
No. People are generally not educated enough about electronics to understand that batteries degrade over time. The most common way this manifests is “this phone sucks the battery dies in 10 minutes zomg I’ll never buy x phone again!”.

Your phone battery has been abused for years and you expect it to hold a charge?!

It’s a much much better decision to slow it down than let the phone die.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by jaclaz on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:37AM (#15967989)
>No. People are generally not educated enough about electronics to understand that batteries degrade over time. The most common way this manifests is “this phone sucks the battery dies in 10 minutes zomg I’ll never buy x phone again!”.

This would be a non educated (and possibly excessive) reaction, but - given the success of the iPhone - what happens in reality is that another (still non educated and still excessive) reaction happens:

“this phone sucks the battery dies in 10 minutes zomg I’ll go and buy the new x phone!”.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by lallysingh on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @08:55PM (#15966368)
I completely disagree. Apple chose to have the phone continue to work all day. That will keep it useful more than being fast.

A better option is a larger battery, but without that, I think they make more customers happy than I'd they did the alternative.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by sithadmin on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @10:30PM (#15966805)
Nothing you've expressed is an effective counterclaim to the assertion that Apple chose a more deceptive route to dealing with the inevitable degradation of batteries in its devices.

On balance, the expected behavior for an aging phone is to suffer from decreased battery life as total battery cycles increase. Apple instead has chosen to decrease system performance to hide diminished battery life, and failed to disclose this. This kind of behavior wouldn't be tolerated in other market segments. Can you imagine the public backlash against an auto manufacturer that shipped a vehicle which intentionally decreased performance as its fuel tank drained in order to boost their 'maximum range' metric, but never disclosed this 'feature' to the public?

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by jodrellblank on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:40AM (#15967526)
Are you sure they don't do that?

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-my-car-feel-more-powerful-aft...

A couple of people there speculate that's what happens to them.

I doubt there would be much backlash - stranding a driver with an empty tank is about the worst thing that could happen short of a breakdown. "Yes of course we do everything we can to help you get to a fuel stop"

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by tbrock on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @11:41PM (#15967105)
For people familiar with electronics yes. Most people don’t understand this and think the phone is a cheap piece of crap if the battery starts dying early.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by c0smic on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:43AM (#15968010)
I highly doubt this, devices with batteries are near ubiquitous in many places and have been for decades now. "Electronics" knowledge or not, people have used batteries and will have noticed that over time its life goes down.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by sithadmin on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @11:57PM (#15967151)
>For people familiar with electronics yes.

Familiarity with electronics doesn't matter. We can't allow vendors to simply simply cover up what are normal behaviors from components given typical operating conditions.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by jodrellblank on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:51AM (#15967565)
Yeah we can, that's how vendors make products better than the sum of their components.

Nobody wants a DVD player which throws up an error and stops playing if the disk is scratched, compared to retrying then skipping on a few frames.

Nobody wants a streaming video which stops playing if there's temporary bandwidth problems instead of pixelating briefly and coming back.

Nobody wants ECC memory or hard disk error correction or parity bits removed and corrupt data to become more common because it's "normal behaviour".

Nobody wants fanless video cards that overheat and break permanently instead of slowing down a bit and staying working.

People do want run-flat tyres because they'd rather keep going instead of getting normal behaviour of hitting something sharp.

People do want sat nav which recalculates the route in the case of "typical operating conditions" of making a wrong turn, covering up the normal behaviour of "giving bad directions from then on" with much more useful behaviour of "giving good directions".

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by pishpash on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:43PM (#15972464)
With the exception of DVD and hard disk bad sector error correction, none of your examples are relevant because they are temporary conditions that are reversible. With persistent media failures there is an issue of data at stake, and replacement would cause data loss, so the next best action is to recover as much as possible. It's already in failure mode. In all of these cases graceful recovery is appropriate because there is no other alternative.

Apple does have an alternative. The battery issue is neither irreversible nor has any permanent ramifications to the remedy of just replacing the f-ing battery. In fact I have no problem with graceful degradation as a stopgap. Explicit Power Saving modes already do that.

But the issue at hand is completely orthogonal and has to do with why Apple refuses to, at the same time as undervolting, also signal to the user the one sane action to take, which is to obtain a battery replacement. By not signaling such and misdirecting (whether intentional or not), they are passive-aggressively telling the user to replace the entire phone. How else would a typical user interpret this situation? In what way could they know the appropriate action to take from observation? You think a company that prides itself on every meticulous detail of the UX just "missed" this?

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by tbrock on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:07PM (#15971431)
Spot on! Thank you. The companies that make electronics “softer” usually provide a better experience to users.

Yes it would be great if everyone went to Shenzhen and made their own iPhone from scratch but I’d much rather Apple handle the details for me and my parents and grandparents...

I’m the only one that would be slightly entertained by the harsh realities of batteries being used under duress.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by baddox on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:34AM (#15967271)
A larger battery isn’t going to solve the problem of degradation, unless they limited battery life in software until the battery degraded below that limit, which would be absurd.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by MagnumOpus on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:32AM (#15968996)
This is not a binary choice. If Apple had had good intentions, they could have (a) set back the clock speed to 100% when plugged in, so you can at least use you phone properly when it is not using the battery, (b) provide a setting for users to choose between the two choices you provide, (c) tell users that a battery change will fix the slowness rather than making them infer that they need a faster phone.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by bsg75 on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:52PM (#15966007)
Let me choose performance vs time?

They already let you choose lower mode on charge < 20%, why not extend it for older devices.

... unless they would rather I just buy a new device.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by revelation on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:51PM (#15965658)
This post is written as if it wasn't Apple that introduced the hard-glued battery. They made a consumable hard to replace and backed themselves fully willing into this "no win" situation. And now they are not being forthright about the tradeoffs they made and certainly aren't making an effort to fix any of it. That is planned obsolescence.

These batteries can be replaced but Apples absolute refusal to enable customer or 3rd party repair make all of this infinitely more difficult.

(It's not just screen-on time, a naturally expected decline in operating time. As the batteries age resistance goes up and peak currents decline, so in some circumstances the device would actually hard turn off)

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by hk__2 on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:06PM (#15965760)
> This post is written as if it wasn't Apple that introduced the hard-glued battery. They made a consumable hard to replace

As others have pointed out in this thread the batteries aren’t hard to replace; this is just not something you can do directly as a user. That probably makes sense; it’d be difficult to make a super-thin smartphone while at the same time provide an easy way to replace each part.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by revelation on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:11PM (#15965794)
The problem isn't necessarily the replacement, even though it's certainly not for a large majority of iPhone customers. The problem is sourcing the battery in the first place. Apple certainly isn't supplying any of them.

In the best case you get one that works properly, if you're unlucky you might get one that has lower capacity, and if you're very unlucky you might just get one that puffs up and catches on fire.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Domenic_S on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:58AM (#15968069)
> The problem is sourcing the battery in the first place.

Not really! iFixit and others have done the hard work for you there (I work at iFixit).

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by baddox on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:36AM (#15967280)
They’re not user replaceable. Apple and their certified shops will absolutely repair the battery for you, although I don’t know how many generations of iPhones they support.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by pishpash on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:39AM (#15967763)
That they are not user replaceable is not under any dispute. The question is why.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by pishpash on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:36AM (#15967744)
These are completely unfounded guesses. You have no basis upon which to determine whether it's "difficult."
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by hk__2 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:23PM (#15972275)
> These are completely unfounded guesses. You have no basis upon which to determine whether it's "difficult."

Those are guesses, which is why I used "probably" and "it’d be". Glueing parts together takes less space so it makes sense they use that to make phones thinner. I’ve yet to find a single smartphone with the iPhone 7’s thickness and a replaceable battery. The Fair Phone has a replaceable battery, but it’s thicker than every iPhone since the 3GS from 8 years ago.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by rodorgas on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @05:50AM (#15968572)
It’s not a guess. Phones with removable batteries are thicker than “unibody” phones. Sorry but that’s kind of obvious.

If you need a reference: https://www.cnet.com/news/its-time-to-kiss-that-removable-sm...

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by pbreit on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:47PM (#15965630)
How about a bigger battery? My primary criterion with each iPhone purchase is which has longest battery life.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by yoodenvranx on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:50PM (#15965647)
Apple has decided that people want to buy razorthin phones and there is just not way to fit a large battery in there.

I wish there were phones built like the old IBM thinkpads. Bulky, square, ugly but also indestructible and fully user servicable with replaceable batteries.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by derefr on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:41PM (#15965949)
Not thin; light. Phone makers make phones lighter so that people can hold them up longer before their hands get tired. A battery is massy, however dense it is, whatever the shape. You can only add so much battery before your phone gets too heavy to comfortably hold. (Unlike, say, an external camera lens, which increases volume but not really mass.)

Thinness is just a side-effect of lightness, because the alternative—a “hollow” unevenly-dense phone—would be awkward and unbalanced in the hand. You make a phone lighter, keep the screen size the same, repack it to an even density to keep its center of gravity the same... oops, it’s thinner now.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by ac29 on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @09:08PM (#15966436)
>Not thin; light.

An interesting thought, but is it true? I cant really think of people complaining of arm fatigue from holding up a ~150-200g phone -- the effort of holding up your arm and hand alone are going to be substantially more than additional weight of the phone.

I also dont really see any evidence of phone manufacturers decreasing weight over the years, at least with a quick review of Apple's iPhones, which have definitely increased in weight over the past decade.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by derefr on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @10:33PM (#15966820)
They don't complain, no. It's not a user-requested feature. But it's been observed (in at least one internal study I know of) that people just end up using their phones longer, the lighter they are.

And increasing the length of a phone use-session is important, because it "unlocks" experiences people wouldn't otherwise bother with, that might then increase their total satisfaction with the ecosystem, and so increase brand loyalty. For example, some people just don't want to read books on their phones... but hand them a lighter phone, and they suddenly change their minds. They don't realize that that's the difference; it just is. And this might be the first device that got them to read e-books—which means they now associate the positive feelings of reading books in situations they wouldn't have otherwise been reading, with your device.

> which have definitely increased in weight over the past decade

They do increase, but only to a point; far less than if it weren't an optimization problem between increasing battery mass to power the features promised, vs. decreasing total mass.

Also of note is the fact that as phones are made more durable, people use cases less, which decreases total in-hand weight. So switching various pieces from plastic to aluminum, or one type of glass to another, may be a win even if it increases the base mass of the phone, as long as it decreases the probability that the user will feel the need to buy a case.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by baddox on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:30AM (#15967256)
iPhones haven’t increased monotonically. The iPhone 5 was significantly lighter than the 4s, which was by far my favorite feature of that upgrade. Then they started creeping up, which the exception of the 7 (which was slightly lighter than the 6s) and the SE (which is essentially the 5 form factor).

The iPhone X is significantly heavier than any previous (non-plus) iPhone, which is by far my biggest complaint about it.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by iaml on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:30AM (#15969282)
iPhones have been gaining weight since 6.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by slantyyz on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @10:28PM (#15966797)
>> Apple has decided that people want to buy razorthin phones

I wonder what percentage people who buy those razorthin phones end up adding a millimeter or more to their phones by adding tempered glass screen protectors and cases over them. IMO, that defeats the purpose of the thinness.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Vendan on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @11:42PM (#15967106)
I once had a phone with a removable back, and a special case designed to hold a massive battery in place without the back plate. Sucker was almost like a brick in your hand, but I've got huge hands, and I LOVED the fact that my battery would last for nearly a week with intense usage(I read books, like, all the freaking time on my phone)
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by donarb on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @11:12PM (#15966982)
Actually, no. Due to the thinness, I can add a protector that adds just enough so the thickness feels right to me. A thicker phone would necessitate a thicker protector that would make it difficult remove the phone from my front left pocket where I always carry it.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by slantyyz on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:40AM (#15967302)
One might make the argument that a thicker phone could be more durable and not require such a protector.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by alphakappa on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:16AM (#15967906)
A thicker phone (presumably due to a larger battery) doesn't necessarily solve the problem of fragile front and back materials (glass).
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by akuji1993 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @06:12AM (#15968662)
Since I'm the most clumsy person of all time, I have to add these two things to any phone. It being pretty thin, it still fits my hand pretty good.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by dkonofalski on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:00PM (#15971345)
Not if you're factoring that in with the thinness. I've bought a thinner phone over a larger phone specifically because I know that the total size of the phone + case fits in my pocket better. Especially when using something like a Lifeproof/Otterbox/Tank case...
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by baddox on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @12:23AM (#15967211)
It doesn’t defeat the purpose of the thinness, most obviously because screen protectors and cases are optional.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by terminalcommand on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @05:13AM (#15968412)
Contrary to popular opinion Thinkpads are not durable as they seem. There are various conditions such as deep coma (when the laptop won't wake from a sleep) or random shutdowns unrelated to heat/any observable cause etc.

I thought my thinkpad x201 was like a tank, but then random shutdowns became more frequent. I disassambled the laptop 4-5 times, replaced thermal paste, checked connections, replaced all software (including BIOS), couldn't find a solution. Then I stumbled upon a 45 page thread at the lenovo support forum. Many people were claiming the existence of the exact problem, but the only solution was to "replace the motherboard".

At least, apple offers world-wide decent for their products. With used thinkpads, you're basically on your own, no matter how tech-savvy you are.

If I were to purchase another laptop for on-the-go usage I will think twice before opting out for a thinkpad for it's durability.

Thinkpads are marvelous machines, but in my experience not all that glitters is gold :).

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by c0smic on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:49AM (#15968024)
*current thinkpads can also still do this.

I switched from a MBP to a ThinkPad because of Apple's decisions with product design; performance sacrificed for purely aesthetic reasons.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by codeulike on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:52PM (#15965668)
Sounds a bit like Fairphone (well, not the ugly part)

https://www.fairphone.com/en/

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by chocolatebunny on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:03PM (#15965738)
It's cool that they have two SIM slots and an SD slot. I wish more phones had that. But the removable battery doesn't seem to be particularly large.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Fnoord on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @04:27AM (#15968211)
Its not, and its a smartphone from 2015 with a SD800 with 2 GB RAM. There's a lot of pros and cons about it, but at least you can repair the components yourself. Just the other day I installed a new camera module, all on my own. I also replaced the battery. For a mere 20 EUR. (The camera module was front + back for 75 EUR.)
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by alkonaut on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:32AM (#15967969)
If the battery capcity could be increased to the point where I didn't need to worry about charging it every day (night), like an old feature phone, then I would see the point. Otherwise I'm agreeing with apple - let's make the hardware faster and the screen brighter instead and just make sure the battery lasts a whole day.

Having e.g. 50% more battery wouldn't do anything for me. It would save me that one day per year when I'm using a ton of GPS/video and actually run out of battery before I go to bed, but that's about it. I'd still have to remember to charge it every night.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by yoodenvranx on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:55AM (#15968050)
> and just make sure the battery lasts a whole day.

But the problem is that the iPhones seems to last a day only when they are new-ish and there is no safety buffer down the road. If it is fine on release day it will not be fine after 2 years if there additional capacity build in.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by alkonaut on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @04:18AM (#15968163)
Yes, that's a perfectly valid point - if they made it last 150% of a day on release they could ensure it lasts 100% of a day after two years without having to throttle the hardware.

I'm all for that - I do want all the power of the hardware and a full days charge, for the whole lifetime of the phone.

Unfortunately it's very much in the sellers interest to not do this. If they make it last 100% of a dayt on release they can instead make it cheaper/lighter/more powerful, AND if they throttle or make it behave worse some other way after 2 years, they also make it obsolete at just the right point in time.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by MBCook on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:16PM (#15965829)
They offer bigger batteries in the form of the Plus and now the X.

They’ve obviously determined that it’s not worth it on the regular iPhone. I guess their surveys and stuff show that their customers would rather have the thin phone, on the whole.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by pbreit on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:15AM (#15967901)
The X has worse battery life than the plus so i got the 8+.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by MBCook on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @08:55AM (#15969464)
Really? I know it had more than my 7. I guess I misremembered.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by ianlevesque on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:51PM (#15965661)
Sounds like a blackberry and we know how that turned out for them in the current market.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by mtgx on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:07PM (#15965763)
> there is just not way to fit a large battery in there

And if they do find a way, they'll just make the phone even thinner instead.

It's not about Apple not being able to do it. It's about their priorities. And in this case their priorities seem to coincide (as if by magic) with getting people to upgrade the phones faster.

It's especially silly when you consider that Apple, a design-focused company, is making phones thinner despite using very obvious camera bumps on their phones -- a clear sign that maybe their phones shouldn't be that thin.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by marklyon on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @08:29PM (#15966197)
Or a battery that can be replaced.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by alkonaut on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:35AM (#15967983)
It's replacable, either DIY if you tinker for <5% of the cost of the phone, or under warranty for ~10% of the cost of the phone. It's typically done either 0 or 1 time over the lifespan of a phone. I can't really see how that's a big problem. I haven't owned an iPhone yet that hasn't done 2 screen replacements for every battery replacement - and changing battery when you are changing screen is even cheaper.

I wouldn't want to have a user replacable battery behind a hatch if it made the phone worse in any way (less water sealed, less sturdy etc).

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by Neil44 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:57AM (#15968066)
You make your phone buying decision based on the advertised performance of the device. To sell you one level of performance then subtly take that away I would call dishonest.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by k3a on Friday December 22, 2017 @08:13AM (#15987166)
My "friend" started to be aggresive and supporting this Apple explanation. It feels to me they behave like addicted. They need a new iPhone dose for xmass this year.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by TheYcMaster on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @07:28AM (#15968979)
The interesting fact is that Android 7+ scales down the UI effects in case of bad battery life and I suspect even on bad battery status.

iOS could do the same, scaling down those useless effects and transparencies, boosting performance and guaranteeing a more qualitative experience.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by kn0where on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @02:30PM (#15972886)
iOS has had low-power mode for some time, which disables some of the most power-hungry UI effects and background processes.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by raz32dust on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @09:57PM (#15966652)
I am sure they could make an iPhone with replaceable batteries. I actually wouldn't mind paying $100 every 18-24 months for a genuine iPhone battery replacement if the perf and battery life is restored with that. But of course they won't.

If iPhone X lasted 5 years with the same perf and battery life with two $100 battery replacements, I would happily shell out $1200 for it. But I know it won't last more than 2 years (like almost every other phone at this point), and then the math doesn't work out for me.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by userbinator on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @10:26PM (#15966791)
Of course Apple can make an iPhone with a replaceable battery. A small Chinese company made an Android-based iPhone 4/5 clone with one, and also the option of having a 50% larger battery with a slightly thicker phone:

http://www.jiayu-store.com/jiayu-g5-quad-core-mtk6589-4-5-in...

https://www.gizchina.com/2013/11/07/jiayu-g5-unboxing-hands-...

The Jiayu also has dual SIM, microSD, USB, and costs a fraction of the Apple while having a more rigid and expensive housing (stainless steel, not aluminium.) Apple could, if they wanted to, make a phone with as much user-friendly features if not more, but they deliberately chose not to.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by raz32dust on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @03:27PM (#15973478)
I was wrong and Apple does replace battery for a very reasonable fee of $79 (https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/battery-power). Hmph. TIL! Can't edit the original post any more so I'll leave this here.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by swiley on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @05:40AM (#15968523)
It would be better if it where user adjustable since they know what they need in their situation.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by flashman on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @07:53PM (#15966014)
> Most Android devices seem to do the opposite (lose screen-on time, but keep performance relatively unchanged).

I'm guessing this is why my previous Samsung phone used to unexpectedly restart, and semi-predictably do so when I activated the torch. I never realised it could have been due to the battery output dropping.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by CamperBob2 on Wednesday December 20, 2017 @01:04AM (#15967410)
c) You tell the user what's going on and let them decide whether performance or battery life is more important to them.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by EGreg on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:20PM (#15965417)
With Apple being Apple, I think they can do it in an Apple way and degrade screen-on time for performance, switching it to favor battery whenever you turn on the "Low Power Mode" setting. Simple binary decision in the user's hands. I would also put "Conserve Battery" in the control center.
Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by derefr on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:28PM (#15965494)
This is already a (separate) thing, though. When battery life drops to 20% (and then again at 10%), iOS devices suggest that you enable "Low Power Mode."

In effect, right now, on old devices, Low Power Mode is always either fully-enabled, or half-enabled, but never fully-disabled. All they'd have to do is to change it from a binary switch (between enabled and {disabled, secretly half-enabled}) to a three-level switch.

Re:iPhone Performance Degrades as Battery Ages by conradev on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @06:26PM (#15965471)
You can put Low Power Mode in Control Center on iOS 11