News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by bernardino on Sunday December 03, 2017 @10:03AM (#15837838)
I live in Irvine, CA, and per the article we are the sixth most expensive for a renter. I live with my parents and three sisters and we do pay $1950 for a two bedroom apartment, three dollars off the actual median.

Though what I find hard to believe is how my family does it. I attend a local community college close by, and have been doing so for the past four years after high school. Every year I fill out the FASFA (a Free Application for Student Aid limited to only six years), and I usually ask my parents for their tax record of the past year which gives me a look at our overall income.

My parents for the last four years combined have made roughly an average of $31,000/yr. I've never asked them why we initially didn't move to a cheaper state when we migrated from Mexico, but I assume they enjoy the quality of life here. Though I'm skeptical on whether the trade offs are worth it. We give up most of our life for work, so we may have a few hours off in the week and the weekend. And the the latter applies to my mother, older sister, and I, it does not apply to my father who works the entire week as a gardener with his own workers and clients and only gets a few hours each week (more now since it gets dark earlier with autumn/winter daylight savings).

Though above all, I find it odd that we give our only life (?) to living for rent, food, and necessities. Which is not to say work is bad, after all, work I think has three functions: “to give a man a chance to utilise and develop his faculties; to enable him to overcome his egocentredness by joining with other people in a common task; and to bring forth the goods and services needed for a becoming existence.” But otherwise, I still believe there ought to be a healthier and more natural approach to modern day work and life balance.

The quote above is from E.F. Shumacher’s Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered. A book I have come to admire and tend to revisit from time to time.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by ttonkytonk on Sunday December 03, 2017 @10:21AM (#15837925)
You are spot on.

I am homeless because I don't work, but really all I desire is a good spot to put my tent. Of course I enjoy free food and amenities such as the library, but I also volunteer at the soup kitchens and some other functions from time-to-time at least. I have no desire to work 50 hours or more a week at a thankless job at this time. That does not mean I'm comfortable with being a "smooch", just that I think it's kind of irrelevant.

We need to give up the blame/excuses game and focus on the health of communities as a whole.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by extra88 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @10:35AM (#15837998)
You get paid to do a job, why do you need thanks as well?

I wonder if your current lifestyle will make it difficult to transition to another lifestyle when it's no longer sustainable or you tire of it. At least you're volunteering and as odd as I find it to be homeless and spending time on this site, it suggests an interest in and connection to activities that will work out later.

BTW, a mooch is someone who lives off others ("to mooch" is also a verb). A smooch is slang for a kiss.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by coding123 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @11:04AM (#15838116)
Many of the people that ditch society find it much better than society, and love living outdoors and traveling wherever. It doesn't mean those people don't code - I have met quite a few of us on the road that code and live in dilapidated trailers, work for free/ volunteer for churches. As odd as it may seem to _you_, its not this lifestyle that is trapping its the housed one. You would have to live it to understand.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by extra88 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @11:15AM (#15838164)
I try to keep an open mind about different lifestyles but I know I'm fairly risk-averse so it can be hard to relate.

It's also more difficult to live that way when others are depending upon you.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by cyberpunk0 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @12:52PM (#15838587)
Your perception of what qualifies as an open mind is relative. As far as being risk adverse, that indicates a closed mindedness and fear of things outside your comfort zone. You are not nor ever we're "safe", nor can you ever be. Control is an illusion of man when played against the greater backdrop of reality and authority a fickle joke. Culture is not your friend, your choice to play the game of American industrialism and "capitalism version X.Y" is your own by way of you giving others power over you. You are the only true authority in your life, not your parents, not your wife, not your boss, not your friends. Emotion does not translate to text well, I hope you have not taken my words as insult, they were meant to be emotionless but reflective.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by catawbasam on Sunday December 03, 2017 @02:33PM (#15839055)
Love binds people in ways raw power does not, but its yoke is light.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by extra88 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @03:24PM (#15839367)
You’re funny.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by ttonkytonk on Sunday December 03, 2017 @02:59PM (#15839205)
I don't literally need thanks, but it needs to be something that doesn't make me miserable. It seems restaurants stay competitive by being high stress.

I don't code BTW; I found HN by chance and noticed there are many general interest articles so I don't see it as a problem.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by extra88 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @03:36PM (#15839436)
Many people do those jobs and aren’t miserable. That doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you if you would be. I don’t know what made you think of restaurant work but most are not busy all the time. It’s true that most are low-paying and often tiring.

I didn’t assume you code, I don’t really.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by kurtisc on Sunday December 03, 2017 @01:13PM (#15838667)
>You get paid to do a job, why do you need thanks as well?

Esteem is one of Maslow's deficiency needs.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by drdeadringer on Sunday December 03, 2017 @04:22PM (#15839667)
I've always enjoyed being thanked for doing something, regardless of if I loved or hated doing it and also regardless of if I was paid or unpaid in the doing.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by memorymappings on Sunday December 03, 2017 @11:27PM (#15841434)
Ok this is pretty random but I think it's a bad habit to actively like the idea of assess the need for thanks as a requirement.

Why because you're setting yourself up for failure. It's nice to get thanks and consider it a surrendeptious gift or happy moment but to consider it any more than that just highlights all the times you need thanks.

Furthermore, you shouldn't do anything for the thanks of others. If you do what's best for you you'll probably be satisfied and if you so something for someone else be it an individual an organization or otherwise it should be because of a reason that you've resolved the thing you're doing is worth the donation of effort and time whether it's to help a friend, family member or an organization (excluding paid jobs like volunteering and I say do something as in volunteer effort or time).

People who need to be thanked and actually end up working for charities churches and other such things for credit, self worth or priase end up being the most obnoxus and ultimately selfish people in those organizations and lose sight of the best next thing to do for the purpose of that thing or person or organization because they are consumed with having their own praise highlighted. With personal friend said family needing thanks is like holding something over someone's head.

For example, I don't take ask or accept money from family (no judgment to people who do or really need to) because in my family they will hold it over your head forever and want a million other things from you and endlessly guilt trip you so it's not worth it to me but I've also been fortunate to never really have been in such a desperate spot.

The point, people who perpetuate that attitude end up being the people who, like the other day, someone scoffed at me sarcastically and only at that point did I realize that they had apparently opened the door for me and I had not noticed and insulted them by not saying thanks.

Now, this seems rude of me for sure but let's pause in this for a second to look at this further, given the situation I was in it was not reasonable that I would notice at all for a host of reasons, but furthermore, when you do a small something for a random stranger you should accept you know literally nothing about their life or current situation so to immediately judge their behavior towards you for something they never asked you or bothered you for is actually ridiculous, and finally if you opened the door for someone and are so worked up about it that merely not getting an oral thanks makes you vocally angry hostile and upset this is mildly disturbing right? Who are you angry at? What were you expecting. If you're opening the door for someone to genuinely help them and make their day better, another way to look at if is all the more grateful you should feel if you opened the door for someone who was so busy or having such a bad day they wouldn't even notice. You just made their life better and they didn't even realize it. But aha, it's the fact that you need recognition from a random stranger that is the issue with you, and not the person who've you've chosen to be mad at because you've decided they have acted unjustly towards you.

I always look for people who are seeking recognition and extra appreciation and are wary of them because in my mind they need it, they will topple over people to get it, or will feel entitled to things and their satisfaction depends on external praise which makes me nervous and question their own internal compass. Especially in business.

On the flipside, especially personally outside of professional situations but also in professional situations, I find people who are giving, humble and expect nothing in return I can potebtially trust because I know they are helping me without wanting something in return. Also people I find who are truly successful in their own right are giving in general and have helpful hearts and want to see other people do well. People always playing the ioweu uowme game is too stressful.

That being said I'm an engineer so when my professional work environment starts to feel like a game of politics I'm outty. So maybe this is an outlier opinion but I think people tend to gravitate towards humble trusting workers.

Maybe people who need thanks and recognition don't do well in corporate environments because pay is not enough and getting recognition consistently is something almost noone gets not even ceos and faces of famously successful companies, they are the most prone to scruinty and judgment and controversy and that will always scale to be true the more you seek out positions where praise is apart of the incentive package.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by baddox on Sunday December 03, 2017 @09:38PM (#15841087)
Sorry for the tangent, but I had never heard “mooch” as a noun. I’ve always heard and said “moocher.”
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by TaylorGood on Sunday December 03, 2017 @01:57PM (#15838882)
What we all value differently is the word "lifestyle" – the time that goes into creating systems where qualify of life increases is worthy of my XX/hours per week. It's also safe to say that not every career requiring heavier hours is thankless. What if it's your own creation?

Of course there is no one size fits all, but once you are exposed to a greater existence that door never closes.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by IkmoIkmo on Sunday December 03, 2017 @10:56AM (#15838081)
> I've never asked them why we initially didn't move to a cheaper state when we migrated from Mexico, but I assume they enjoy the quality of life here.

You should ask them! In fact, I'd love for you to get back to us on how the conversation unfolded. After all, any decision requires some origin, maybe confronting them with questions about affordability, work/life balance and quality of life, plus some alternative cities and a roadmap to getting housing and employment there, makes them decide to move in a few years.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by VLM on Sunday December 03, 2017 @10:39AM (#15838006)
The other side of the positive pursuit of pleasure coin is the negative absence of pain. Wikipedia claims "rated as having one of the lowest violent crime rates among cities with over 100,000 inhabitants by the FBI every year since 2005". Another good wikipedia quote is "Irvine has been frequently recognized among the top school systems in California and the United States". There are much cheaper places to live, but you might have not written your post because as a little kid you got shot as a bystander and died, or never learned enough from bad schools to get into CC, or your computer or whatever you're posting with got stolen. Better to be poor in paradise than rich in hell, etc.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by dsfyu404ed on Sunday December 03, 2017 @09:26PM (#15841045)
The other side of the positive pursuit of pleasure coin is the negative absence of pain

Writing a $1k check every month just for the privilege of a 500ft^2 dump in a crowded and expensive city is pretty painful.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by macawfish on Sunday December 03, 2017 @10:42AM (#15838017)
Mexico is a whole country
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by VLM on Sunday December 03, 2017 @10:51AM (#15838054)
"why we initially didn't move to a cheaper state"

The world's a lot bigger than just Irvine and Mexico...

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by macawfish on Sunday December 03, 2017 @12:46PM (#15838560)
I misunderstood your comment as saying that Mexico is some kind of socioeconomic hell.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by klipt on Sunday December 03, 2017 @02:43PM (#15839114)
> I've never asked them why we initially didn't move to a cheaper state when we migrated from Mexico

Well California Community Colleges received $9.2 billion in state funding last year: http://www.lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3372

So the same thing that makes California expensive (strong economy, high taxes) helps subsidize education for lower earning Californians like you.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by lhuser123 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @01:16PM (#15838687)
> Though above all, I find it odd that we give our only life (?) to living for rent, food, and necessities.

I think they did it for you, not for them, and you should be very grateful.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by mikestew on Sunday December 03, 2017 @04:58PM (#15839853)
I've never asked them why we initially didn't move to a cheaper state when we migrated from Mexico

I initially assumed strong Spanish-speaking community, other Mexican immigrants...but you can get that in Arizona for half the price. So then I wondered if the quality of life in L. A. is so much better than it was in Mexico (I mean, they moved for a reason, right?) that it never occurred to them to wonder if it can be had for less.

But they’re your parents, ask them. :-)

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by AznHisoka on Sunday December 03, 2017 @10:58AM (#15838089)
How much is the average home in irvine? do you rent from a multi family home?
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by eclipxe on Sunday December 03, 2017 @11:08AM (#15838129)
$950-$1m for starter/mid-range single family.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by scruple on Sunday December 03, 2017 @12:13PM (#15838427)
> $950-$1m for starter/mid-range single family.

Trulia is showing the median sales price in Irvine for the past year-ish at $766k [0]. Zillow is showing the median sales price at $764k [1]. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it's the only data I could find.

[0]: https://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Irvine-California/

[1]: https://www.zillow.com/irvine-ca/home-values/

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by goodoldboys on Sunday December 03, 2017 @02:56PM (#15839190)
Irvine itself may be that expensive, but there are plenty of affordable* options in nearby Orange County cities.

*affordable is relative - I'm talking homes in the 500-600k range

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by runT1ME on Sunday December 03, 2017 @06:31PM (#15840278)
Studying CS? I live in Irvine and my father is from Mexico. :) I'm always happy to meet new tech folk around here and/or chat if you're interested. Contact info in profile.
Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by dahart on Sunday December 03, 2017 @12:15PM (#15838434)
> I find it odd that we give our only life (?) to living for rent, food, and necessities.

Couldn't agree more. A few years ago, I found myself doing so much overtime that I had no life outside of work. No time for family, no time for hobbies, throw civics completely out the window. I came to the conclusion that there's no amount of money that makes that worth it. Except I had the option to relax and still make enough money for my basics. If not working overtime would actually mean having to move somewhere that I didn't know anyone, or not feeding or housing my family, I think I'd probably just get used to the idea of working overtime forever.

> I've never asked them why we initially didn't move to a cheaper state when we migrated from Mexico, but I assume they enjoy the quality of life here. Though I'm skeptical on whether the trade offs are worth it.

You obviously know your parents better than I do, but I would assume anyone migrating with kids to another country -- which would be scary as hell -- would be looking for the strongest support system. Having relatives or friends nearby might be important, or even having Spanish speaking neighbors and businesses within reach. While there are lots of cheaper places to live than Irvine/California, California is also friendlier to immigrants than other states.

Having lived in Mexico and seen that standards of living and work are different than the US, I might also assume your parents believe they are making a trade off that is worth it relative to what their lives in Mexico might be, rather than optimizing cost of living in the US. And I don't know, but as a parent I can imagine they might have their hopes resting on you, and not care much about their own quality of life. ;)

> my father works the entire week as a gardener with his own workers and clients

If he has a business, he can't move without starting over from scratch. I started a business, which failed, and got some perspective on how hard small business in the US can be, and how unsupportive this country is in certain ways. Taxes and health care are a nightmare when you're bootstrapping a small business. And I have literally nothing to complain about, I was so lucky compared to the position your father's in, I can't really imagine how hard starting and sustaining a gardening business is when you have a family.

> Which is not to say work is bad, after all

There's a pervasive belief in the US (and globally, I imagine) in the benefits and necessities of hard work. While I personally share and appreciate the optimism, I do wonder if that works against us. Rich people all talk about how hard they worked and believe hard work is why they got where they are. Yet nobody has ever made it to the top by pulling the most overtime at McDonalds or working harder at being the best janitor. Maybe the opportunity to do hard work that leads to economic leverage is the thing. School would be one example. It may be true that you have to work hard once you get the opportunity, but working hard doesn't necessarily do anything to achieve opportunity, and maybe working too hard at something that isn't leveraging might reduce the chances for the opportunity to work hard at something that could change your trajectory.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by JBlue42 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @04:39PM (#15839746)
>I started a business, which failed, and got some perspective on how hard small business in the US can be, and how unsupportive this country is in certain ways. Taxes and health care are a nightmare when you're bootstrapping a small business. And I have literally nothing to complain about, I was so lucky compared to the position your father's in, I can't really imagine how hard starting and sustaining a gardening business is when you have a family.

This is one of the many things that irk me about how Republicans sell their business rhetoric to their people. They're always talking about small businesses but it seems evident there's little they want to do to actually help small businesses.

Decoupling healthcare from employment would save money for businesses that have employees as well as make it easier for people that want to start a business to leave jobs where there's that 'health care security'.

I can't speak too much to taxes but it seems silly that here in CA to have a business you pay $800/yr to the franchise tax board. I'm sure you have further stories about how that becomes even more complex as the business grows.

I believe this is why the 'keep the government out of my business' line of thinking appeals to people and makes them think Republicans have their interests at heart (evidence points otherwise but still...). It becomes very complicated and expensive very quickly.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by narrator on Sunday December 03, 2017 @02:28PM (#15839027)
All work is of equal cost, but not all work is of equal value. The best work is the work that utilizes each person's particular talents and abilities to their fullest potential so they can realize the most value from their work. A lot of life for people is figuring out what they're good at, or at least good enough at to be useful.

Being at the bottom of the economic ladder makes this easier, since creating value good enough for survival is the primary goal and a lot of things done well enough can do that. Often though higher talents are not used or recognized in the daily grind and the ability to create more value is not utilized. For example, I worked at a grocery store as a teenager and the store management would roll their eyes when I would come up with all sorts of ideas for things that were above my pay grade. My next job after that was doing C programming on financial software. I saw my old boss at the grocery store one day and told her about my new job. She chuckled and said she imagined I might go on to do something like that.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by ams6110 on Sunday December 03, 2017 @06:43PM (#15840336)
> Yet nobody has ever made it to the top by pulling the most overtime at McDonalds

McDonald's isn't a great example because many franchise owners started out as employees. In fact McDonald's requires franchisees to work in their stores, you are an owner-operator not an owner-investor.

Re:Where People Spend the Most and Least on Rent in America by dahart on Monday December 04, 2017 @01:43AM (#15841960)
That only reinforces my example. Employees don't get ahead by working hard, they get ahead by being an owner operator, which for a McDonald's franchise requires a minimum $0.5M personal investment. Who's saving $0.5M on employee wages? The owner-operators don't have to do the best job or work the hardest. Working as an employee gives them context and understanding of how employee jobs are done so they can better manage later, but neither putting in overtime nor doing the job well will change their outcomes.