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Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by ams6110 on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @04:06PM (#15760634)
The reason is that in the 1970s and 80s people started freaking out about fat. Everyone from the FDA to USDA to family doctor was telling people fat was bad.

So food producers started making fat-free versions of everything. Only problem is it tasted like shit. So what did they do? They added sugar. So now you have sugar added to everything from salad dressing to pasta sauce to bread and muffins. The latter probably had some all along but the fat free varieties had a lot more.

Edit: I'll add that saturated fat was considered especially evil, which begat trans-fats substituted everywhere. Turned out they were even worse.

Bottom line, eat minimally processed meats and plants and you can stop worrying about it.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by acdha on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @08:34PM (#15762137)
Here’s one of the members of the 1970s guidelines:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1977/01/20/...

“Dr. Mark Hegsted, professor of nutrition at Harvard University and one of the three nutritionists who helped write the report, said: "There will undoubtedly be many people who will say we have not proven our point; we have not demonstrated that the dietary modifications we recommend will yield the dividends expected.

"The question to be asked therefore, is not why should we change our diet, but why not. "What are the risks associated with eating less meat, less fat, less saturated fat, less cholesterol, less sugar, less salt and more fruits, vegetables, unsaturated fat - and cereal products - especially whole-grain cereals? There are none that can be identified and important benefits can be expected."”

I find the history of that fascinating since the Nixon administration felt pressure to do something about the then-dramatic obesity crisis on a time-scale which was too short for the scientific process. They had some of it right (eat your vegetables!) but the big mistakes with fat and salt made the problem so much worse.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by jeffdavis on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @10:47PM (#15762592)
I find it interesting why that doctor's reasoning is flawed: in reality, people don't just follow advice wholesale, they follow some of it based on how much willpower they have for change. By choosing some things to follow over others, they are implicitly making a trade-off.

But to make a good trade, you need to know the relative benefits of two parts of the advice. Giving up fats might be good and/or neutral; but if it exhausts your willpower to avoid sugar, and you indulge, then you are worse off.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by acdha on Thursday November 23, 2017 @10:26AM (#15765566)
Yeah, there's a really interesting psychological angle to this — telling people to reduce, say, sugar or the most processed fats is very different from effectively asking them to give up most of what they enjoy in food. A less ambitious play probably would have come a lot closer to accomplishing their goal.

There's also an angle about how this pushed a lot of people to heavily processed foods because leaving out everything on that bad list left a much narrower list of things you could make at home which were also tasty.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by croon on Thursday November 23, 2017 @04:55AM (#15764042)
> I find it interesting why that doctor's reasoning is flawed

I can't imagine a scenario where that cereal/grain recommendation in GP quote isn't sponsored or populistic at the time though.

And while their method/reasoning wasn't flawed if they indeed had no research opposing their recommendation, that's kind of a straw man from the main issue of avoiding fat being legitimately bad.

You need energy, and you get some from protein which you desperately need, but you can't get all your energy from protein, and that leaves you fats or carbs. Of those it's so much worse to avoid fat than carbs.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by gregcrv on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:13PM (#15761799)
There was no fat to remove from pasta sauce. Maybe they also figured out that sugar was addictive and added it everywhere to sell even more food with sugar?
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by Alex3917 on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @08:10PM (#15762066)
> There was no fat to remove from pasta sauce.

Olive oil is one of the four basic ingredients. (In addition to tomatoes, garlic, and salt.)

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by tigershark on Thursday November 23, 2017 @12:38AM (#15763052)
It doesn't matter, I add sugar even after adding oil. And usually there are onions instead of garlic and you need to add less salt when using onions because they are already sweet.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by goldenkey on Thursday November 23, 2017 @12:39AM (#15763062)
That's good fat though..
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by tigershark on Thursday November 23, 2017 @12:36AM (#15763040)
You need to add sugar to contrast tomato acidity, it has nothing to do with sugar addiction. And it has been like this since forever, not only from the '70s. Source: even my grandmother added a pinch of sugar when cooking pasta sauce.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by AmVess on Thursday November 23, 2017 @01:06AM (#15763153)
A very little bit of sugar that's in a pinch isn't any kind of a problem. Even a tbsp isn't that much. The problem is the massive amount they put in drinks of all types...and foods of all types. They even put it in bread for heck's sakes.

In terms of taking the edge off of tomato sauce, shredded carrots works pretty well. I don't use sugar in any of my cooking, and no one has noticed.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by crx087 on Thursday November 23, 2017 @02:11AM (#15763397)
Sugar in bread is so nasty to me. I can't stand to eat it, yet it's in almost every loaf on the shelf at a supermarket with 50 types.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by zaarn on Thursday November 23, 2017 @02:53AM (#15763559)
Even without sugar, bread contains a lot of carbohydrates that break down right into sugar just by coming into contact with the spit in your mouth.

If you think that's not true, simply take a sugar-low bread (check the food label, don't just go for organic/whole-grain, those usually have more sugar) and taste it for a while in your mouth. You'll notice it starts to become sweeter in your mouth.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by KozmoNau7 on Thursday November 23, 2017 @05:46AM (#15764237)
And that's actually not an issue. As you probably know, glucose is the fuel our bodies and brains run on, and while your body can break down proteins to glucose in a pinch, it's not actually healthy (despite what proponents of ketosis diets will tell you). It's especially hard on the kidneys.

As long as you stick to proper bread without the crazy added sugar, and preferably whole grain (actual whole grain, not just marketing "whole grain"), it's not an issue. Unless you try to subsist on literally only bread, of course.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by zaarn on Thursday November 23, 2017 @05:53AM (#15764261)
I'm not talking about various proteins and rather about starch, which is a natural part of a good bread. The enzymes in your mouth and digestive system will break down starch to normal Glucose without a problem.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by KozmoNau7 on Thursday November 23, 2017 @06:33AM (#15764404)
My point is that we need carbs, it is unhealthy to subsist on protein alone.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by zaarn on Thursday November 23, 2017 @06:41AM (#15764430)
Obviously, yes. A balanced diet is always a better choice than any extreme diet. Like basically anything else too.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by ohiovr on Friday November 24, 2017 @10:07AM (#15771221)
Rye bread even has sugar in it.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by wyclif on Thursday November 23, 2017 @06:11AM (#15764324)
This is one of the best reasons to make your own at home. Thankfully, bread machines aren't expensive.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by newen on Friday November 24, 2017 @10:59AM (#15771482)
No knead bread is great. You don't even need bread machines.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by ohiovr on Friday November 24, 2017 @10:05AM (#15771214)
My grandma used grated carrots to offset bitter/sour flavors in tomato sauce. There was a time before industrial white sucrose was as cheap as flour.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by KozmoNau7 on Thursday November 23, 2017 @05:42AM (#15764220)
That's actually a good guideline. Treat sugar as seasoning, to be used sparingly.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by raverbashing on Thursday November 23, 2017 @03:45AM (#15763787)
Yes, a pinch, not enough sugar to turn the sauce into "kids ketchup"
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by whathaschanged on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:31PM (#15761893)
If everything you are eating has sugar added, the item you eat without it will taste bitter and/or bland. Or the sugar made the bland (picked early etc) tomatoes used in the sauce more palateable.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by brownbat on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:58PM (#15762010)
I think this is generally true, but I'm not sure how to explain pasta sauces since I've been paying more attention.

Sugar content in pasta sauces is almost random. Varies from 3 to 10 grams per serving at least. It seems to vary more than almost any other premade item I buy.

And yet, even though I still eat junk too often, and like some treacle, I would not sort sauces based on sugar content.

I can't tell if there's no correlation or if it is literally reversed for my taste buds, but often the high sugar ones are the worst to me.

Just a theory, but maybe the sugar enhances some flavors, like garlic, but masks others, like basil, rather than drawing them all out equally?

I'm not sure how well sugar's complex affect on taste is understood by food scientists, let alone smaller or newer food brands. (What do the generic brands have, a couple chefs and a couple rounds of taste tests? No idea.)

Maybe there are too many possible combinations of ingredients and market segments for producers to all agree on the proper role of sugar, and maybe they're mostly guessing.

If that's true, then we could all probably stand much less added sugar than we/they realize.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by tigershark on Thursday November 23, 2017 @12:42AM (#15763075)
You add sugar especially when using fresh tomatoes for the sauce. The tomato passata already has a bit of sugar. Ever tried an homemade tomato passata made with fresh tomatoes before adding sugar? I remember that the home made one sometimes was so acidic that it literally tingled my mouth.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by chiefalchemist on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:37PM (#15761927)
Sodium gets paired with sugar to manipulate the tastebuds. Taste has become a hyper-surreal experience.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by KozmoNau7 on Thursday November 23, 2017 @05:50AM (#15764247)
Most chicken sold is pumped up with water (because water is cheaper than chicken). To bind the water, they add a ton of salt. To counteract the salty taste, they add sugar. As a side effect, it makes skinless boneless chicken breasts less likely to dry out if you overcook them slightly.

The end result is that most people find the taste of non-pumped chicken unappealing, because they're simply used to the faked-up salt/sugar chicken.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by chiefalchemist on Thursday November 23, 2017 @07:51AM (#15764672)
Yup. Bought a precooked whole chicken at Wegmans a couple weeks ago. The small printed said up to 12% was water and other ingredients (e.g., salt). All we wanted was chicken.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by KozmoNau7 on Thursday November 23, 2017 @08:21AM (#15764838)
You're basically paying chicken prices for salted sugar water, it's crazy.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by harofax on Thursday November 23, 2017 @08:27AM (#15764879)
There's a term in the industry that's used for the amount of sugar that makes a food tastier/more addictive while not making it too sweet, don't remember what it is though. But yeah, it's like you said, they add it to everything to make it better tasting and more addictive.

There was some lab-rat study super long ago where they got mice/rats addicted to sugar and cocaine, then let them pick between the two - and they chose the sugar every single time.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by bitsoda on Saturday November 25, 2017 @12:42AM (#15774609)
The term is 'Bliss Point' in case anyone was wondering.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bliss_point_(food)

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by chiefalchemist on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:35PM (#15761918)
I just finished reading "Grain Brain" (as a follow up to "Wheat Belly" a couple yrs ago. GF aside, both books are - or should be - a wake up call. We're eating ourselves ill. So much so we don't even realize it.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by KozmoNau7 on Thursday November 23, 2017 @05:35AM (#15764186)
Both books are filled with pseudoscience and unfounded speculation. As with any "avoid these specific foodstuffs!" diet, it is destined to fail, because we humans are imperfect, we will not be able to adhere to such diets in the long term, and we will do everything in our power to find loopholes and excuses.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/wheat-belly-arguments-are-based-on-sh...

The only diet* I've had any luck with is the No S Diet: No Snacks, No Sweets, No Seconds, Except (sometimes) on days that start with "S".

So while I agree that cutting out added sugars is a damn good idea, I very much disagree with the unfounded "all carbs and grains are BAD!" alarmism.

It's not perfect, it doesn't make huge promises and it's not going to make the weight magically disappear instantly or even over a period of weeks, it's a long-term thing. But it is straight-forward and (most importantly) relatively easy to adhere to, and it doesn't require massive amount of effort, like diets where you have to count every calorie and in-depth micromanage your nutrients. Of course there is plenty of room for cheating (you could eat a whole plate of chocolate and call it a "meal"), but that's a fault of all diets where you're not actively forced by someone else to adhere to the rules.

Short-term diets are stupid and counterproductive. We don't need diets or temporary crash weight loss, which just leads to yo-yoing. We need actual, lasting lifestyle changes to make sure the weight stays off and we stay healthy.

* http://nosdiet.com/

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by chiefalchemist on Thursday November 23, 2017 @07:58AM (#15764716)
I don't disagree.

That said, I think it's obvious that most people need to challenge the status quo of their diet. For Grain Brain to remind them "you are what you eat" is a step in the right direction. For both to suggest that you can be sensitive to gluten so give it up for 30 days...well, that's not going to hurt anyone either.

Moi? I read them as guidelines and suggestions. Sure, perhaps not 100% pure science, but there was a time when science said the world was flat, smoking was ok, etc.

To say "this things are worth looking at as you revist your health" might not be ideal. But neither is a bag of chips and a stack of cookies.

Ultimately it's about:

- Changing your relationship with food. Food is for health, not to experience an aural orgasm.

- Lifestyle. Diet is just one way to mind your health. Junk is junk, whether that's food, friends, or information. Trying to fix your health only via diet is, as you note, a fool's errand.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by AtTheLast on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @08:45PM (#15762174)
The odds are stacked against us. Working in the nutrition and fitness space has really opened my eyes into how poor nutrition over time really starts impacting lives. Even people who don't eat 'bad', still are having lots of health issues. So much sugar and other stuff in foods that are typically billed as healthy.

I'll have to check out those books, they sound really interesting. You might want to check out the book "The Case Against Sugar", it tells the story of sugar and is really interesting.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by chiefalchemist on Thursday November 23, 2017 @11:10AM (#15765906)
Yes. But those odds are not impossible. If you make an effort to be smart about what you consume you can over come the odds. No effort? Well, that's never a formula for victory. I mean there are plenty of alternatives to soda. But people don't choose them.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by mattm on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @06:55PM (#15761737)
That's really strange that it was that early. If you look at pictures or videos of normal people from that time period, the main thing I always notice is how thin everyone looked.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by ehnto on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @08:46PM (#15762180)
It's likely processed foods and junk wasn't quite as prolific yet, and it also takes time to put on weight.

I imagine people were also eating much more whole foods as well, so saturation could have been lower regardless of what was in the junk food on the shelves at the time.

A study linked on HN recently also showed that sugars relationship to obesity snd diabetes may be that it changes your metabolism over time, and that change to your metabolism is what has you put on fat.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by gech on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:01PM (#15761758)
And who pray tell had these organizations and the public direct their focus to fat instead of sugar? Guess.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by tinha on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @04:26PM (#15760815)
There's a documentary on Netflix about this, I think it's called Sugar x Fat.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by Fnoord on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @04:42PM (#15760942)
There's 2 good documentaries I remember about the subject (though there's likely many more): That Sugar Film [1] and Fed Up [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That_Sugar_Film

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fed_Up_(film)

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by dorkwood on Thursday November 23, 2017 @11:17AM (#15765959)
'That Sugar Film' is incredibly dishonest.

The guy claims he gained about 15kg over a one month period by substituting sugary foods into his diet while keeping his caloric intake the same. That's a massive claim which you'd expect to be backed up by pretty rigorous testing, yeah? Not even close. He doesn't even count his calories.

The whole time I was watching I was waiting to see the numbers. Spoiler alert: there aren't any. Halfway through the 'experiment' he states that he's never counted calories before, proceeds to do it just once, and then claims that his intake appears to be the same as it was before. To embark on a project like this and only measure your caloric intake once throughout the entire thing is incredibly disingenuous behaviour.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by pgsandstrom on Thursday November 23, 2017 @03:17AM (#15763649)
I dont know about Fed Up, but at the very least That Suger Film is very dishonest and not good science. Unfortunately the only good source I have is in swedish, but here it is: https://traningslara.se/hur-du-gor-en-storsaljande-men-usel-...
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by KozmoNau7 on Thursday November 23, 2017 @05:58AM (#15764285)
I am inherently distrustful of anything that tries to demonize a specific foodstuff or nutrient, without bringing some serious evidence to the table.

For instance, the evidence against trans fats is seriously overwhelming and convincing. The evidence against carbohydrates? Eh, not so much.

Avoid added sugar, don't worry so much about bread (as long as you avoid the stuff with added sugar, obviously) or rice or paste or potatoes.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by gukov on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @10:10PM (#15762462)
That Sugar Film is good and fun.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by perseusprime11 on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:31PM (#15761891)
+1 to Fed Up.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by jessaustin on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @09:31PM (#15762342)
Does anyone have an opinion on this one, also on Netflix?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Health

It's pro-veganism and the narrator is a goofy manchild, but has credible (to me anyway) medical experts.

Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by BhavdeepSethi on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @10:29PM (#15762522)
If you read reviews about What the Health online, you'll see that lot of it is vegan propaganda. They've manipulated facts (like mentioning relative probability as opposed to absolute) so that they seem more dangerous than it actually is.
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by mhomde on Thursday November 23, 2017 @07:24AM (#15764566)
Yeah, I second that. I starts out very credible but if you examine what they say, especially regarding sugar and carbs it becomes very clear that it's vegan propaganda and skewing its facts heavily
Re:Sugar industry withheld possible evidence of cancer link ... by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday November 23, 2017 @09:44AM (#15765338)
It was funded by a vegan propaganda group and has been widely discredited.