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Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by caseysoftware on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:25PM (#15393593)
> Without realizing it, the Norths had become temporary wards of the court. Parks had filed an emergency ex-parte petition, which provides an exception to the rule that both parties must be notified of any argument before a judge. She had alleged that the Norths posed a “substantial risk for mismanagement of medications, financial loss and physical harm.”

1. That's horrifying, especially considering their daughter was minutes away. How was she not involved or at the bare minimum notified? This does sound like a kidnapping.

2. The couple and daughter had no relationship with April Parks (the guardian) prior, how did she get involved? More importantly, how did she get letters from the couple's doctor?

3. How was Parks allowed to hold a hearing without involving at minimum the emergency contacts for the couple? The doctor would have had that information.

4. Once underway, it appears that further hearings, costs, etc can be billed to the estate. How f*d is that?

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by CoolGuySteve on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:33PM (#15393666)
They explain a little later in the article how Parks did her research:

> O’Malley described a 2010 case in which Parks, after receiving a tip from a social worker, began “cold-calling” rehabilitation centers, searching for a seventy-nine-year-old woman, Patricia Smoak, who had nearly seven hundred thousand dollars and no children. Parks finally found her, but Smoak’s physician wouldn’t sign a certificate of incapacity. “The doctor is not playing ball,” Parks wrote to her lawyer. She quickly found a different doctor to sign the certificate, and Norheim approved the guardianship. (Both Parks and Norheim declined to speak with me.)

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by busterarm on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:43PM (#15394353)
Obviously I don't have all the facts, but from my read of this, Ms Parks deserves to be locked in a deep, dark, damp hole, for as long as possible.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by CoolGuySteve on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:57PM (#15394490)
If you read further, she did get indicted:

> Last March, Parks and her lawyer, along with her office manager and her husband, were indicted for perjury and theft, among other charges. The indictment was narrowly focussed on their double billings and their sloppy accounting, but, in a detailed summary of the investigation, Jaclyn O’Malley, who led the probe for the Nevada Attorney General’s Office, made passing references to the “collusion of hospital social workers and medical staff” who profited from their connection to Parks. At Parks’s grand-jury trial, her assistant testified that she and Parks went to hospitals and attorneys’ offices for the purpose of “building relationships to generate more client leads.”

But I agree with you. Having lived in this country for 10 years, I am still shocked by the audacity of these kinds of legal loophole scammers and also amazed that we don't see more retaliatory murders when the legal system fails, considering how easy it is to get a gun in most of these states.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by FilthyAnalyst on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @03:35PM (#15395395)
If I am 79 years old and have had everything taken from me by a monster I might be spending the rest of my life in a different kind of facility than the culprit had in mind.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by GigabyteCoin on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:58PM (#15395055)
>amazed that we don't see more retaliatory murders when the legal system fails, considering how easy it is to get a gun in most of these states

You're amazed that most Americans do not resort to murder when the legal system fails them?

That's why we have appeals courts. To appeal decisions by judges that you believe have failed you.

Where do you come from if you don't mind my asking?

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by guelo on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @03:27PM (#15395309)
The appeals courts and all other levels of government failed these people for years until a newspaper finally took interest.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by GigabyteCoin on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @03:47PM (#15395513)
The right answer to those failures should never be murder.

The right answer to those failures is to pressure the system to change, as this newspaper article is helping to do.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by lovich on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @04:36PM (#15395944)
Not for nothing, but the US was founded on the basis that violence is just in the face of an unjust government. We can't idolize the Revolutionary War, and then turn around and tell people they should always follow the law no matter what.

If we are going to assume that the government is always right and there is no reason for violence ever, then we should just do away with the second amendment. I dont think that amendment is super useful in the age of tanks, jets and nukes, but the idea of violent revolt against unjust rule is still there

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by TeMPOraL on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @04:12PM (#15395725)
> The right answer to those failures should never be murder.

I agree. In this particular case though, I wouldn't blame the victim if they'd consider kneecapping a proportionate response.

Preying on the weak like that is deeply, deeply subhuman.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by FussyZeus on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @04:21PM (#15395815)
If this sort of thing was tried before a court system, the person would've ended up in a hole.

That's why we created a justice system, because that mode of justice is not a good thing.

The justice system failed them, so logically, they'd be forced to go back to putting people in holes.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by lightedman on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:19AM (#15398617)
"The right answer to those failures should never be murder."

Many many years ago, a jury in Tennessee disagreed with your first claim, and literally took the law into their own hands in the courtroom against the government as they watched a persons rights get wholesale violated. That jury was flat-out exonerated IIRC. So there's legal precedent against your first claim and a good inherent pressure for your second claim. People would be far less likely to violate the law so egregiously if they knew that people could just kill them and walk away without a second thought of jail time.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by ryandrake on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @04:15PM (#15395756)
That's a pretty naive point of view. Obviously the courts are part of the system that enables success from this profit-seeking behaviour. How are they going to help? Everyone from the scammers to the judges to the lawmaker who wrote the laws is probably on the $$$ gravy train.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by FidelCashflow on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:57PM (#15395040)
one with 8-12 inches of standing water in it at all times.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by revmoo on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:46PM (#15394376)
Racketeering, kidnapping, elder abuse? Yeah.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by caseysoftware on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:29PM (#15393627)
> "After the Norths left, Parks walked through the house with Cindy Breck, the owner of Caring Transitions, a company that relocates seniors and sells their belongings at estate sales. Breck and Parks had a routine."

Almost every paragraph has some completely f*d up situation. I can't believe this isn't flagged as a conflict of interest.

Fleecing old people must be a great business.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by notyourday on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:43PM (#15394346)
That's because we as a society tolerate it. This behavior is no different from jewelers taking gold teeth in Nazi Germany or art dealers pretending that they did not know where the paintings came from.

As a marginally civilized society, we have dealt with it - it involved international tribunals, nazi hunters, quick trials and bullets between the eyes after which gold dealers as if by magic were not taking gold teeth and art dealers were not taking magically re-appearing artworks.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by Shivetya on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:36PM (#15393703)
Welcome to the hell that bureaucracy perpetuates. Criminals learn the system and it is easy to exploit when government workers have no concern other than to process work. So we end up with a professional class who preys on those who cannot defend themselves as they have the power of the courts on their side.

this is the type of law and regulation that only gets changed if something outlandish gets championed by the local press or they step on the wrong person' toes. seeing how this goes down I would not be surprised if people like Parks hire detectives to dig up possible "clients" just so they know who is an easy take.

Most certainly needs to be changed and those participating need to be held accountable.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by raugustinus on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:59PM (#15394506)
Those participating quite often love the unaccountability the bureaucracy provides them. Hiding behind a procedure is often preferred as to being out there making a difference. The indifference some people show, especially here in my country, to this bureaucracy is astounding. Makes my blood boil. Which might be the reason I'm having difficulty discussing it with them.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by a_c_s on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @05:52PM (#15396529)
This is also the kind of law that makes people hate lawyers & judges. No judge should approve guardianship unless they have substantial proof that the family has been notified.

Facilitating fraud like this is blatantly unethical: if only 'legal ethics' actually stood for anything worthwhile

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by ryandrake on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @04:12PM (#15395727)
I'm shocked at how docile and accepting those old folks were! I mean if someone comes to my house and tries to kidnap me and my family against our will, they better come armed.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by defined on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @05:37PM (#15396422)
Some people criticized Holocaust survivors for not resisting (I am not equating you with such critics, btw). They didn't realize that initially, the victims were hoodwinked into thinking they were being relocated, and when they learned the truth, they were weakened and disoriented by being crammed into a train cattle-car without food or water for some days.

In the camps, the people were systematically starved and beaten to maintain their helplessness. Even so, some did try to rebel and were killed.

The people who heard whispers about what had happened couldn't believe it - it was too vile to contemplate.

The parallels between that unspeakable crime and this story are:

- People who have become marginalized (our society does not exactly honor the elderly, except - sometimes - relatives).

- Preying on unsuspecting people with their guards down.

- State-sanctioned abuse (if unintentional) in the name of protection.

- Victims who lacked the mental capacity and physical stamina to understand what was happening and to resist.

- "Somebody else's problem"; disinterest in the plight of the marginalized people who some see as less than human.

- Trust in authority figures.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by JohnicBoom on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @08:25PM (#15397393)
Same thing in Soviet Russia. I am reading The Gulag Archipelago, and in it, Solzhenitsyn says about the mindset of one who is facing unjust arrest by the authorities:

"...But as for you, you are obviously innocent! You still believe that the Organs [of state security] are humanely logical institutions: they will set things straight and let you out.

Why, then, should you run away? And how can you resist right then? After all, you'll only make your situation worse; you'll make it more difficult for them to sort out the mistake. And it isn't just that you don't put up any resistance; you even walk down the stairs on tiptoe, as you are ordered to do, so your neighbors won't hear.

At what exact point, then, should one resist? When one's belt is taken away? When one is ordered to face into a corner? When one crosses the threshold of one's home? An arrest consists of a series of incidental irrelevancies, of a multitude of things that do not matter, and there seems no point in arguing about any one of them individually - especially at a time when the thoughts of the person arrested are wrapped tightly around the big question: 'What for?' - and yet all these incidental irrelevancies taken together implacably constitute the arrest."

I think same kind of thoughts go through peoples' heads in all manner of less serious circumstances. They might know it doesn't feel right or that it's wrong, but they feel that surely someone will help them correct the mistake. And if they just go along for now, they'll be in better standing when they finally find the right time to raise their objection.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by pa7ch on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @07:43PM (#15397180)
To add to this, past the initial elder-knapping, it looks like they drugged the elders to keep them from rebelling/attending court dates. From the article:

>During Rennie North’s first year at Lakeview Terrace, she gained sixty pounds. Parks had switched the Norths’ insurance, for reasons she never explained, and Rennie began seeing new doctors, who prescribed Valium, Prozac, the sedative Temazepam, Oxycodone, and Fentanyl. The doses steadily increased.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by Lxr on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @04:30PM (#15395890)
I imagine when you get old, sick, weak and lose your ability to think quickly and argue properly things become more challenging.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by cabaalis on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @01:12PM (#15394025)
Any time I hear these latin legalese terms I forget that we're living in 2017. It appears our justice systems would prefer that we were all subjects to Roman emperors whenever it suits them.

EDIT: I've been downvoted, so maybe I should explain my complaint. The article describes an "emergency ex-parte" hearing as one in which only one side is represented. Does that feel like 2017 justice to you, especially in the context of the article?

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by kbutler on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @02:00PM (#15394514)
Your complaint was with the "latin legalese terms" - extolling your ignorance as a virtue. This is unlikely to be popular on a site that exists to gratify intellectual curiosity.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by lovich on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @04:46PM (#15396033)
I'm inclined to agree with 'cabaalis on this point. Using Latin phrases in law still feels too much like medieval clergy only reading the Bible in Latin and telling the laypeople to trust them. Yes, there will be jargon in every profession that most people won't get, but if it's in the same language you can at least make an educated guess about it. Using dead language for your jargon feels like it specifically keeps laypeople out of the loop
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:16AM (#15398409)
> Using Latin phrases in law still feels too much like medieval clergy only reading the Bible in Latin and telling the laypeople to trust them.

It's a technical term with a fixed definition. It's not being interpreted, and it doesn't matter if it's English, Latin, or a drawing of a flower.

A lay person being able to guess at the meaning is a minor benefit in some situations, but people guess wrong all the time about how laws work. The end result is a pretty negligible difference.

And looking like normal words without actually being normal words can actually be a detriment to understanding.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by solidsnack9000 on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @12:23AM (#15398240)
> Using dead language for your jargon feels like it specifically keeps laypeople of the loop.

This is not really a fair assessment. Law and contracts aren’t all rewritten every few years — old and settled law must be read and understood in the style it was written in, as must precedents and contracts. At one time, the largest settled body of law was the Roman law and so a lot of Latin got dragged forward into the English legal system (and from there into the American, Hong Kong, Canadian, &c.).

The situation is like that in medicine, biology and many other sciences, where the long history of Latin as a language of scholarship is still felt in the choice of technical terms.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by lightedman on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:27AM (#15398639)
"This is not really a fair assessment"

Yes it is. Most people making an appeal wouldn't know what a prima facie case is. It is in fact how most self-done appeals fail in the first place. Most people don't know when they file for themselves to file pro se - a big failing for initial cases. Little technical crap like that which relies upon a dead language that only us geeks bothered taking in high school as their elective foreign language. WE get the advantage, the common person does not. Then to boot, we pretty much eliminated civics, so most people don't know how to file a lawsuit or defend themselves, let alone know the Latin terms to utilize in the first place!

And the NEW laws are still written in the OLD American English. No bueno.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by Sacho on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:26AM (#15398847)
Knowing what the words mean in Latin doesn't help you in any legal sense. You won't be able to present "at first sight evidence"(?!) in any useful manner without knowing the legal requirements and procedures. What you need to know is the law, and you're right, having that knowledge would help you when presenting a case....but that's a wholly different argument from knowing Latin.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by lightedman on Thursday October 05, 2017 @01:02PM (#15410705)
You failed your translation - On The Face Of The Statement is the definition. Source: High school Latin.
Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by Sacho on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:23AM (#15398832)
I think the usage of Latin is very effective in this case; The meaning of the Latin words themselves is not important, the jargon is defined in legal texts and in the law. Meanwhile, the usage of Latin allows you to quickly identify which parts are legal doctrine - e.g. an "ex-parte decision" sounds like legal doctrine, "the judge made a decision without telling the other party" sounds like the judge had a grudge. I think in that sense, using a dead language is very appropriate; our jargon is a mixture of "kinda-like-but-not-quite" terms - memory, inheritance, relational, bus(actually a contraction of a Latin word), master/slave; and arcane words that might as well be Latin(multiplexer! polymorphism! bandwidth!). At least you can't really mistake the second group for anything but jargon.

While people might not have to interact with engineering jargon, they are often forced to interact with legal jargon at some of the worst times in their life; I think it's good signaling if they can easily identify whether someone's entering into a "legal interaction" with them rather than just a regular talk.

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by kbutler on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:23AM (#15400254)
I think that's a really good point. Latin "terms of art" are automatically recognizable as such (and often even printed in italics to further set them apart). I see them as a notification that there is something specific meant by that term.

In contrast, English terms of art may be misleading based on their common interpretation - how often do people misunderstand "fair use" of copyrighted material?

Re:How the Elderly Lose Their Rights by cabaalis on Friday October 06, 2017 @01:01PM (#15418336)
Yes, but we're talking about Justice, not explanation. There could come a time where "the judge made a decision without telling the other party" is no longer a valid course of action in the justice system (i.e. not true justice.) Hiding that fact behind terminology no one understands is a problem.