> ignoring price and prestige

It's funny to lump these together. Having lived in a couple of wine-producing countries now, I've found the wine culture is heavily centered around finding the best price for the best wine. Finding a half-way decent low-priced wine is considered just as much a skill as knowing which high-priced wines are actually worth the cost.

> If you don't know anything about wine, the safest thing is to just go with what you like.

Even if you do know about wine this is what you should be doing. Drinking expensive wine because it's expensive is the wrong thing to do. The people who I know who really know wine are always in search of good wine that is also inexpensive.

Maybe you are talking to others, not me, but I'm not "still exploring my preferences" regarding wine. I honestly don't care...there are probably 10,000 things that I would rather spend my time exploring compared to wine. I enjoy wine 99% for the buzz, and if want something that genuinely pleases me as it goes down the hatch, and I'm not trying to impress anyone with my sophisticated tastes, my first choice would have to be a combination of whole milk and Nesquik powder.

it depends on what foods you are eating. wine goes really well with certain foods eaten in a certain order. if you could care less about maximizing the experience, thats fine, but drinking and enjoying wine is not about some 'pretending to be wealthy' feeling.

I think you underestimate the role culture plays in preferences. I don't doubt you can "maximize the experience", but you can do that with lots of things, for a lot less money. I could obsess over the exact balance and handle shape of the mug I drink my morning coffee out of if I wanted, to give the maximum pleasurable feeling on my hand as I lift the cup to my lips.

I think you are underestimating the role preference plays in preferences. We get it that you like wine mostly for the buzz, but it so happens that when people like it mainly for other aspects, they are not always faking it, and neither are they always posturing. When my wife and I enjoy a glass of wine at home, no-one else knows.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am getting at. It's like music... some genres of music are pretty unlikely that an individual would like except for the culture that surrounds them and promotes them. And yet, sure, those people that do like them, after being exposed to that culture, still probably listen to that music when no one is watching. I'm not suggesting that most people are consciously trying to impress people.

For what it's worth, this doesn't seem true to me for either wine or your analogy to music. People like different things.

I'm not a fan of "obligatory xkcd" references but this one is directly relevant and hits the nail on the head: https://www.xkcd.com/915/

Awesome.

its not just about money, although more expensive things tend to actually be better.

my favorite wine comes affordably in a box. there are better box wines than others, and not all wines are appropriate for specific settings.

I can only get buzzed so often and only to a certain amount (I'm over 30), so when I choose to drink I try to get the most out of it. Since money is not a bottleneck in how often I can get buzzed, I think less about it in that context.

> wine goes really well with certain foods eaten in a certain order.

> drinking and enjoying wine is not about some 'pretending to be wealthy' feeling.

I'm pretty sure that these two statements are contradictory. Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages.

Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices? No, nobody ever does that. And yet there is certainly as much variation in citrus juice as there is in grape.

Wine is treated differently precisely for the kind of reasons that you have to explicitly disclaim "pretending to be wealthy" as a motivation.

> Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages.

No, wine is a bit special here. It's somehow similar to cheese - there is a whole universe of tastes and subtastes based on many factors. You can of course ignore it completely and treat these foods like eggs (or put any other uniformly tasting kind of food here). That's perfectly fine. Or you can discover that there are so many flavors of cheese, with some of them particularly appealing to you - and just let yourself enjoy these.

Of course there are snobs who make a show out of everything, but don't let that spoil the genuine joy of tasting some good wine (or any other food that may or may not be expensive at that moment).

There are a couple hundred varieties of orange, and if you extend it to citrus more generally, there are thousands of varieties.

Compare that to the varieties of grapes - there are certainly more strains of grapes in total (5k-10k), but if you restrict yourself to only wine grapes, they are of similar complexity, and the entire grape industry is based on Vitis Vinifera and Vitis Labrusca, whereas Citrus has at least 4 original species.

And Citrus reacts just as well as Vitis Vinifera to terroir, as well - Citrus grown in volcanic soil vs limestone soil vs california loam has a distinctly different composition and flavor.

You're going to have to face it, wine is special because humans have declared it special, not because it's not similar in complexity to dozens of other agricultural, natural, and fermented products :)

Fermentation produces many things, but grown things also have great variety. Tomatoes, for example. Picked fresh, some have such intense flavor.

While the Dutch water to tomato conversion process surely made them cheap, it also means that many people never tasted a real tomato.

Apples have quite a variety too.

If you go to a really fancy restaurant and buy their tasting menu they often have an alcohol free version instead of the wine package that often is a variation of juices and musts that is selected to pair well with the food.

If you want to try it out sometime.

> but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages.

> Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices

A lot of people usually prefer to not have sweetness in their meal (at least where I live). Conversely I understand that people loving sweetness and not sour or bitter taste are perplexed by wine.

> And yet there is certainly as much variation in citrus juice as there is in grape.

You are underplaying the effect of fermentation, like from milk to a strong blue cheese. But yes other fermented juices could be as interesting, for example I heard Americans were quite into hard cider ("apple wine") in the past

It is as if wine had certain qualities that made it special. Don't blind yourself to something very good known for a very, very long time just because you don't want to be associated with a certain social group.

One of the biggest epiphanies I had in high school (a million years ago) was to not let their fans keep me away from the music of Led Zeppelin.

Orange juice clearly doesn't go with food in the same way that wine does.

As someone who enjoys orange juice and thinks more than 95% of wine tastes awful, I agree but probably in the opposite direction that you intended with your statement.

I enjoy orange juice too, but it doesn't go well with food.

I'm with the grandparent on this one - I like OJ with various foods.

I'm astounded by how many comments in this thread state as absolutes things that are obviously personal preference. I have never in my life felt a meal was better because of the addition of wine, but I find orange juice to be a compliment to a meal on a regular basis.

OJ goes great with my meals.

> Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices? No, nobody ever does that.

I love orange juice, but I don't want it with my steak.

Steak cooked with ponzu sauce is a amazing. Ponzu is a sauce made from citrus fruits. So yes, for some oranges and steak go together great.

Ponzu sauce is made with a bitter citrus - much more 'lemon' than 'orange'. Secondly, of course, Ponzu sauce isn't a glass of orange juice. Comparing the two is ridiculous.

...since we're trading anecdotes, I'd much prefer juice to wine with my steak.

Although I typically go with my favourite drink of all -- plain water.

You're right, with a steak I'd much prefer a strawberry milkshake.

Certainly not wine.

Not 6 different orange juices, but pure juice pairings have become popular on top restaurants (e.g. the 3-star Geranium here in CPH, and Noma while it was open), similar to wine pairings.

Those are thoughtfully developed mixes, so few if any just out of a bottle and typical pricing is half of a wine pairing (the wine pairing is normally the same as the tasting menu). I wouldn't personally swap a wine pairing for them -- if you think a full menu is too much, you can often get a half or share the wine menu between 2 people, even if the restaurant doesn't mention so. But it is an interesting alternative.

I think you're ignoring the additional complexity added by the fermentation. It's not fair to compare juice to a fermented juice. As I understand it, it is objectively more special than other fruit juices.

> Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages.

Well, other than the fact that, on top of its own particular taste characteristics, it's also a vehicle for a substance with is both a recreational drug and flavor enhancer, which certainly has an effect on experience when it is consumed that has nothing to do with social pretense.

But ignoring that is a pretty big oversight.

I'm with you, I'll take chocolate milk over port every day of the week

But, a desert wine with dark chocolate taste so good together :)

Alcohol and chocolate are something that I will never understand putting together.

Have you tired it? A sweet vinsanto and good chocolate compliment each other and really enhance the flavors of both.

Yes, that's why I said what I said.

The mix of the two in my stomach is not a pleasant feeling.

Why do you seem so aggressive about this? Don't drink wine if you don't like it. Nobody cares what you do. Lots of people do like wine. What difference does it make to you?

> the safest thing is to just go with what you like.

I have never tasted a wine I liked. Ever. At best some were tolerable. The sweeter the better.

Dry wines taste absolutely disgusting. Like someone collected filth and put it in a bottle to trick people (the emperor has no clothes).

I once tried adding sugar to a dry wine to see if I could taste those flavor notes the bottle said they contained. It helped a bit, but not much.

Like a color blind person not believing color really exists, I have a hard time believing people that they actually like the stuff.

Pretty much.

I've tried cheap wines and a few stupidly expensive wines and I really disliked each one. It's just not a pleasant taste to me.

Same with champagne. Even expensive champagne is unpleasant.

The concept of wine or alcohol in general going well with certain foods is alien to me too. If I am eating and drinking alcohol at the same time, that warm fuzzy feeling in the head that you get from the alcohol makes my meal much less appealing to me, like it kills my appetite.

Alcohol and food is a case of one or the other to me. Never at the same time.

This is very much my experience. To me, wine takes exactly like fermented grape juice - not in a good way.

I used to grudgingly tolerate sweet whites, but red always tasted like something I shouldn't be putting in my mouth and drinking.

Some people clearly enjoy wine, but how/why baffles me.

I enjoy wine, but I understand where you're coming from.

It turns out that neuroscience has some intriguing things to say about the general concept of 'acquired taste'. For instance, the first time people heard Stravinsky's 'Rite of Spring', they rioted. This Radiolab episode [1] discusses an interesting hypothesis that might explain the events of that night, and I strongly suspect the same factors are the reason for similar reactions to many different kinds of stimuli, possibly including your experience with wine.

Anyway, it's a great episode.

[1] http://www.radiolab.org/story/91512-musical-language/

I generally agree with you. I've never been able to stand dry wine.

But there are some sweet wines that are utterly fantastic. I was at place a few weeks ago (Umbra Wines in Grapevine, TX) where I had a moscato d'asti that tasted like I was drinking liquid pixy stix. Ever since then, I keep thinking about going back so I could get a full glass instead of the mini-glass in the flight I had (it was the only wine in the flight I liked... the other two were dry, and I had to force them down, but the cost of the flight was worth it for the liquid pixy stix). Well, that and the mead they had there. The mead was also fantastically sweet.

To illustrate how much human tastes can vary: I don't like sweet drinks (coca cola makes me gag for example), and the idea of liquid pixy stix sounds like torture. (Though I'm now curious as to whether pixy stix would dissolve in water or alcohol, thus eliminating the need for the wine!)

Some of us don't like sweet things. All the best flavours are sharp or sour.

Not me. Put anything sour in the food and I won't eat it unless it's balanced with a lot of sugar. For salad I use just oil and salt - never vinegar or lemon juice, because they taste terrible.

> All the best flavours are sharp or sour.

That's an extremely subjective statement.

The thread is pretty much full of subjective statements, many posed as universal truths.

My contribution: Blueberry wine is delicious.

Do you like beer or coffee? Those two are also pretty harsh and not sweet.

The reason why I like red wine is because I can select ones that are not sweet and I really enjoy non sweet drinks with food. Water is nice and what I usually drink but it is pretty neutral and does not add to the meal the same way wine can do.

However I'm not a fan of alcohol so I have been starting to drink non-alcoholic beers (I like lagers and I think those are fine as non-alcohol) but I have not found a good non-alcoholic red wine yet. I would love to though so if anyone has any recommendations please tell.

> Do you like beer or coffee? Those two are also pretty harsh and not sweet.

As someone who also can't stand dry wines but loves sweet wines, it depends on the beer. My favorite beers are sweet thick malty beers like doppelbock, milk stouts, wee heavy, etc.

There's a semi-local brewery here called 903 that has a Milk & Honey Stout and a Chocolate Milk Stout. Drinking those is like drinking a little bit of heaven.

I do not like coffee, but I'll drink it with sugar if I need the stimulation (although normally I'll just swallow a spoonful of dried instant coffee instead to get it down quick). I'm neutral toward beer, don't really like it, but don't hate it either.

Can't you just buy caffeine pills? Must be cheaper.

I have a very similar experience with wines. I did find one kind of wine that I genuinely enjoy, though, and that's icewine. I think it's because of how much stronger it tastes like, well, grapes rather than alcohol. And also very sweet.

But because of that latter part, it's really more like a liquid dessert.

Do like the Spanish and mix half-n-half with fruit juice or soda. I suggest red wine and orange soda, but many people like to mix with Coca-Cola.

Well, there is a lot of evidence that your perception of the quality of a wine actually effects how you taste it. If you can somehow convince yourself that a $3 bottle is actually $30 bottle (or more), you'll actually like it better!

It's just not true at the very low price points. I can drink 3 buck chuck anytime but I will know it is 3 buck chuck. Why? It's much harsher and lacks any depth in flavor.

Now give me a good wine in the $15-20 range and it can be incredibly satisfying. There are also plenty of bad expensive wines. But as you dip below the $10 mark I have yet to find a wine that isn't much harsher and harder to drink.

3 buck chuck is not the same wine each time. It is whatever is surplus and they can get for a low price (and meets whatever their quality standards are), and sometimes it is the exact same wine that goes for $40 or more. They sell it off for cheap to reduce supply to maximize profits. I know a "wine snob" from Napa -- he actually was paid well to write about wine -- and he explained in detail, and mentioned that there were lots of "in the know" wine lovers who would go to Trader Joe's, buy a bottle, take it to their car and taste it to decide if they wanted to go back in and grab 20 bottles.

Interesting point, I did not know that and will have to try it (I don't live by a Trader Joe's so don't get to do this often). Thanks for the tip.

I should mention that Wikipedia contradicts this, so.... I don't know.

Any recommendations?

In terms of value: For red, Portugal can't be beat. For white, Gascogne.

Tempranillo. It's light like a Pinot Noir, but without the cachet that the Sideways movie gave, so they tend to be cheaper.

I am super pissed in a not actually pissed at all sorts of way that my local liquor stores seem to be stocking entirely 100% tempranillo. I don't know if Spain just gave into the American obsession with varietals or what but personally I love a 70-90 trempranillo but it's very much a grape that benefits from a blend.

Also, a wine rating app like vivino is a good way to explore wines while (hopefully) avoiding the ones that are utter shit. Just pick whatever's cheap and rated 3.8 or higher, and you'll usually find something decent.

>One thing about wine I really enjoy is that there are so many different tastes available, and that tastes may vary by year.

Are there? You may be missing that not everyone even notices this enormous variation in taste[1]. For my part, all wines taste like sting-y grape juice, and most beers taste like empty sting. This persists after numerous wine/beer connoisseurs have insisted that I just need to try one more of this special brand, or insisted that each wine in a particular flight has a very different taste.

For that matter, perhaps you're just imagining the flavor variation and have tuned yourself to give the socially-correct answer?

Furthermore, there may be an unrecognized disagreement in the basic ontology of "liking" something. I know people who will swear up and down that they "like alcohol", but it turns out they only like it when it's heavily diluted with other, universally enjoyable flavors (e.g. sugar). In my book, that's not what liking something looks like.

See also this reddit thread, with numerous posters agreeing that all alcohols taste gross to them:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/2juncs/d...

[1] Important reading: "What universal human experiences are you missing out on without realizing it?" Punchline: people casually assume that all humans experience X, ground major beliefs on X, and turn out to be mistaken. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/17/what-universal-human-ex...