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Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by robbrown451 on Sunday October 01, 2017 @03:32PM (#15379382)
Maybe you are talking to others, not me, but I'm not "still exploring my preferences" regarding wine. I honestly don't care...there are probably 10,000 things that I would rather spend my time exploring compared to wine. I enjoy wine 99% for the buzz, and if want something that genuinely pleases me as it goes down the hatch, and I'm not trying to impress anyone with my sophisticated tastes, my first choice would have to be a combination of whole milk and Nesquik powder.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by autokad on Sunday October 01, 2017 @03:47PM (#15379433)
it depends on what foods you are eating. wine goes really well with certain foods eaten in a certain order. if you could care less about maximizing the experience, thats fine, but drinking and enjoying wine is not about some 'pretending to be wealthy' feeling.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by robbrown451 on Sunday October 01, 2017 @03:56PM (#15379475)
I think you underestimate the role culture plays in preferences. I don't doubt you can "maximize the experience", but you can do that with lots of things, for a lot less money. I could obsess over the exact balance and handle shape of the mug I drink my morning coffee out of if I wanted, to give the maximum pleasurable feeling on my hand as I lift the cup to my lips.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by mannykannot on Sunday October 01, 2017 @07:05PM (#15380425)
I think you are underestimating the role preference plays in preferences. We get it that you like wine mostly for the buzz, but it so happens that when people like it mainly for other aspects, they are not always faking it, and neither are they always posturing. When my wife and I enjoy a glass of wine at home, no-one else knows.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by robbrown451 on Sunday October 01, 2017 @08:32PM (#15380794)
I think you are misunderstanding what I am getting at. It's like music... some genres of music are pretty unlikely that an individual would like except for the culture that surrounds them and promotes them. And yet, sure, those people that do like them, after being exposed to that culture, still probably listen to that music when no one is watching. I'm not suggesting that most people are consciously trying to impress people.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by sanderjd on Monday October 02, 2017 @10:19AM (#15383995)
For what it's worth, this doesn't seem true to me for either wine or your analogy to music. People like different things.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by biot on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:46PM (#15379704)
I'm not a fan of "obligatory xkcd" references but this one is directly relevant and hits the nail on the head: https://www.xkcd.com/915/
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by robbrown451 on Sunday October 01, 2017 @08:17PM (#15380706)
Awesome.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by autokad on Sunday October 01, 2017 @08:31PM (#15380789)
its not just about money, although more expensive things tend to actually be better.

my favorite wine comes affordably in a box. there are better box wines than others, and not all wines are appropriate for specific settings.

I can only get buzzed so often and only to a certain amount (I'm over 30), so when I choose to drink I try to get the most out of it. Since money is not a bottleneck in how often I can get buzzed, I think less about it in that context.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by jaggederest on Sunday October 01, 2017 @03:54PM (#15379471)
> wine goes really well with certain foods eaten in a certain order.

> drinking and enjoying wine is not about some 'pretending to be wealthy' feeling.

I'm pretty sure that these two statements are contradictory. Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages.

Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices? No, nobody ever does that. And yet there is certainly as much variation in citrus juice as there is in grape.

Wine is treated differently precisely for the kind of reasons that you have to explicitly disclaim "pretending to be wealthy" as a motivation.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by dvfjsdhgfv on Sunday October 01, 2017 @05:03PM (#15379789)
> Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages.

No, wine is a bit special here. It's somehow similar to cheese - there is a whole universe of tastes and subtastes based on many factors. You can of course ignore it completely and treat these foods like eggs (or put any other uniformly tasting kind of food here). That's perfectly fine. Or you can discover that there are so many flavors of cheese, with some of them particularly appealing to you - and just let yourself enjoy these.

Of course there are snobs who make a show out of everything, but don't let that spoil the genuine joy of tasting some good wine (or any other food that may or may not be expensive at that moment).

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by jaggederest on Monday October 02, 2017 @02:18PM (#15386368)
There are a couple hundred varieties of orange, and if you extend it to citrus more generally, there are thousands of varieties.

Compare that to the varieties of grapes - there are certainly more strains of grapes in total (5k-10k), but if you restrict yourself to only wine grapes, they are of similar complexity, and the entire grape industry is based on Vitis Vinifera and Vitis Labrusca, whereas Citrus has at least 4 original species.

And Citrus reacts just as well as Vitis Vinifera to terroir, as well - Citrus grown in volcanic soil vs limestone soil vs california loam has a distinctly different composition and flavor.

You're going to have to face it, wine is special because humans have declared it special, not because it's not similar in complexity to dozens of other agricultural, natural, and fermented products :)

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by xapata on Sunday October 01, 2017 @05:31PM (#15379927)
Fermentation produces many things, but grown things also have great variety. Tomatoes, for example. Picked fresh, some have such intense flavor.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by dom0 on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:41AM (#15382256)
While the Dutch water to tomato conversion process surely made them cheap, it also means that many people never tasted a real tomato.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by trentmb on Sunday October 01, 2017 @07:42PM (#15380578)
Apples have quite a variety too.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by cc81 on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:34PM (#15379651)
If you go to a really fancy restaurant and buy their tasting menu they often have an alcohol free version instead of the wine package that often is a variation of juices and musts that is selected to pair well with the food.

If you want to try it out sometime.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by tarsinge on Monday October 02, 2017 @08:33AM (#15383307)
> but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages.

> Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices

A lot of people usually prefer to not have sweetness in their meal (at least where I live). Conversely I understand that people loving sweetness and not sour or bitter taste are perplexed by wine.

> And yet there is certainly as much variation in citrus juice as there is in grape.

You are underplaying the effect of fermentation, like from milk to a strong blue cheese. But yes other fermented juices could be as interesting, for example I heard Americans were quite into hard cider ("apple wine") in the past

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by valesco on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:25PM (#15379609)
It is as if wine had certain qualities that made it special. Don't blind yourself to something very good known for a very, very long time just because you don't want to be associated with a certain social group.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by Gargoyle on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:54PM (#15379755)
One of the biggest epiphanies I had in high school (a million years ago) was to not let their fans keep me away from the music of Led Zeppelin.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by foldr on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:00PM (#15379496)
Orange juice clearly doesn't go with food in the same way that wine does.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by delecti on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:32PM (#15379642)
As someone who enjoys orange juice and thinks more than 95% of wine tastes awful, I agree but probably in the opposite direction that you intended with your statement.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by foldr on Sunday October 01, 2017 @05:13PM (#15379836)
I enjoy orange juice too, but it doesn't go well with food.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by kbutler on Sunday October 01, 2017 @05:34PM (#15379940)
I'm with the grandparent on this one - I like OJ with various foods.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by delecti on Monday October 02, 2017 @12:36PM (#15385302)
I'm astounded by how many comments in this thread state as absolutes things that are obviously personal preference. I have never in my life felt a meal was better because of the addition of wine, but I find orange juice to be a compliment to a meal on a regular basis.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by ionised on Monday October 02, 2017 @09:20AM (#15383566)
OJ goes great with my meals.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by doktrin on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:08PM (#15379539)
> Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices? No, nobody ever does that.

I love orange juice, but I don't want it with my steak.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by greggman on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:58PM (#15379768)
Steak cooked with ponzu sauce is a amazing. Ponzu is a sauce made from citrus fruits. So yes, for some oranges and steak go together great.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by doktrin on Thursday October 05, 2017 @07:20AM (#15408251)
Ponzu sauce is made with a bitter citrus - much more 'lemon' than 'orange'. Secondly, of course, Ponzu sauce isn't a glass of orange juice. Comparing the two is ridiculous.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by Radim on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:29PM (#15379628)
...since we're trading anecdotes, I'd much prefer juice to wine with my steak.

Although I typically go with my favourite drink of all -- plain water.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by ionised on Monday October 02, 2017 @09:22AM (#15383575)
You're right, with a steak I'd much prefer a strawberry milkshake.

Certainly not wine.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by Erwin on Monday October 02, 2017 @02:02PM (#15386226)
Not 6 different orange juices, but pure juice pairings have become popular on top restaurants (e.g. the 3-star Geranium here in CPH, and Noma while it was open), similar to wine pairings.

Those are thoughtfully developed mixes, so few if any just out of a bottle and typical pricing is half of a wine pairing (the wine pairing is normally the same as the tasting menu). I wouldn't personally swap a wine pairing for them -- if you think a full menu is too much, you can often get a half or share the wine menu between 2 people, even if the restaurant doesn't mention so. But it is an interesting alternative.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by kellyjprice on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:30PM (#15379632)
I think you're ignoring the additional complexity added by the fermentation. It's not fair to compare juice to a fermented juice. As I understand it, it is objectively more special than other fruit juices.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by dragonwriter on Monday October 02, 2017 @09:28AM (#15383629)
> Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages.

Well, other than the fact that, on top of its own particular taste characteristics, it's also a vehicle for a substance with is both a recreational drug and flavor enhancer, which certainly has an effect on experience when it is consumed that has nothing to do with social pretense.

But ignoring that is a pretty big oversight.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by corndoge on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:17PM (#15379574)
I'm with you, I'll take chocolate milk over port every day of the week
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by matwood on Sunday October 01, 2017 @04:35PM (#15379655)
But, a desert wine with dark chocolate taste so good together :)
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by ionised on Monday October 02, 2017 @09:22AM (#15383585)
Alcohol and chocolate are something that I will never understand putting together.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by matwood on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:19PM (#15387550)
Have you tired it? A sweet vinsanto and good chocolate compliment each other and really enhance the flavors of both.
Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by ionised on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @05:39AM (#15391239)
Yes, that's why I said what I said.

The mix of the two in my stomach is not a pleasant feeling.

Re:Science saved me from pretending to love wine by sanderjd on Monday October 02, 2017 @10:16AM (#15383981)
Why do you seem so aggressive about this? Don't drink wine if you don't like it. Nobody cares what you do. Lots of people do like wine. What difference does it make to you?