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Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by pdog on Saturday July 29, 2017 @12:18PM (#14881869)
It's not just Amazon. Facebook and Google also want to avoid any criticism that suggests they should be regulated as utilities.

The #1 marketplace, #1 social network, and #1 search engine companies all lend themselves to natural monopoly, much like the oil and railroad companies at the beginning of the twentieth century.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by x0x0 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @03:31PM (#14882678)
It will be kind of amazing to watch the complaining as people who, by consensus, refuse to pay for news and discuss news on a site that helps them evade paying for news, then complain about what the news organizations they don't pay for do or don't do. Because apparently America is owed robust news organizations that act in the public interest and survive off bread and water. The parallels to open source software and maintainers will be ignored.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by costcopizza on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:29PM (#14883086)
This was probably (wrongly) downvoted because it's hitting too close to home.

Nearly every HN post with a paywall has comments boycotting or denouncing said paywall, how else do you expect them to survive?

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by x0x0 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @06:02PM (#14883200)
I expect people who want robust investigations of what half trillion dollar companies are doing to pay for news, not expect reporters to devote say 1/4 of a year to an investigation at a cost of probably $100k+ (their salary, expenses, editors, travel, etc) in exchange for a couple hundred thousand pageviews with $0.1cpm ads. Though spending $100k to make $50 is actually supported by the valley =P ... but it doesn't lead to a robust public press.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by danielam on Saturday July 29, 2017 @06:37PM (#14883309)
It's not that simple. The amount of money it takes to run a newspaper exceeds the amount it could easily charge readers, at least in the conventional way in which newspapers have done. This has always been the case (a good read is Hillaire Belloc's "The Free Press").
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by RodericDay on Saturday July 29, 2017 @03:36PM (#14882699)
> America is owed robust news organizations

Americans would and should pay for this, collectively and without recourse, via a strong social safety net and possibly taxes. Your shelter, your food, a high quality of life for your kids, etc. should all basically be provided for, so that people can take risks and be daring journalists without being guilt-tripped into feeling like they sacrificed their offspring to their ego.

However, levying taxes to pay for things has been systematically demonized as just not an option at all, and by-and-large people have been hoodwinked into believing that more and more facets of society need to be mediated via "the free market", and if they fail that test, they are not deserving of existence.

It'll take a while until people realize that the market is just a tool, not a be-all-and-end-all.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by WalterBright on Saturday July 29, 2017 @03:53PM (#14882755)
There are countries that have taxation funded news organizations. They are hardly bastions of objective news. Like any organization, they serve whoever funds them - in this case, they serve the interests of the people that run the government.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by barrkel on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:26PM (#14883075)
This is an American canard, but it's not really true. Usually, public broadcasting reflects the consensus of where the middle is, with a slant towards social justice, almost unavoidable when criticizing public policy - usually stories are about something the government isn't doing, or is doing wrong, rather than shouldn't be doing.

If a public broadcaster publishes plainly biased stories, independent media can lambast them. But the shaming only has effect if the independent media is itself taken seriously; so the critique has to come from the middle ground.

What you won't get from publicly funded news is a rounded perspective on what opposing camps think. The extremes are lopped off; you won't get small government conservative ideology, and you won't get communist ideology. Being anodyne and factual is the best defense against criticism from both independent media and political sources.

If one's own position is significantly to one side of the political spectrum, naturally the middle looks like it's on the other side.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by WalterBright on Saturday July 29, 2017 @06:01PM (#14883197)
There have been numerous attempts to defund public broadcasting by those who disagreed with their slant. They didn't have the votes, because most of those in power have the same views as PBS.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by whatshisface on Saturday July 29, 2017 @06:11PM (#14883228)
>Most of those in power have the same views as PBS.

I wonder how that strange coincidence came about.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by true_religion on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:49PM (#14883974)
It's not surprising. PBS is centrist, and most people in power gravitate towards centrist positions in order to win elections.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by noobermin on Saturday July 29, 2017 @04:16PM (#14882828)
I'm not so sure. Has, say, npr, not always leaned left even during R administrations?
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by AnOscelot on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:40PM (#14883126)
NPR consistently plays the middle ground. They're threading a needle. Their audience is largely left-of-center college-educated middle class & upper middle. Their public funding is at the mercy of Republicans. As a result, they're very centrist and will frequently pull their punches in controversial situations.

Despite NPR's reputation, many on the left are increasingly distrustful and critical of them, while many listeners on the right seem to prefer their talk shows to be full of yelling. I'm not sure the relentlessly centrist strategy is working for them.

And in some ways, it's unnecessary. Thanks to endowments and listener contributions, NPR could drop government money without major impact. Public funding is a small part of their budget.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by noobermin on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:01AM (#14884508)
I was somewhat skeptical, but here's[0] a chart of NPR funding sources. I really had no idea.

Turns out corporations give them a lot of money too.

[0] http://www.npr.org/about-npr/178660742/public-radio-finances

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by ZenoArrow on Saturday July 29, 2017 @06:15PM (#14883237)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPR#Funding

> "According to CPB, in 2009 11.3% of the aggregate revenues of all public radio broadcasting stations were funded from federal sources, principally through CPB; in 2012 10.9% of the revenues for Public Radio came from federal sources."

It appears approximately 10% of NPR funding is from the US government. That's a decent chunk, but not enough to hold sway if it goes against the majority of their donors.

Contrast that with a services like the BBC and RT which are almost all funded by taxpayer money:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC#Finances

> "According to the BBC's 2013/14 Annual Report, its total income was £5 billion (£5.066 billion),[2] which can be broken down as follows:

* £3.726 billion in licence fees collected from householders; * £1.023 billion from the BBC's commercial businesses; * £244.6 million from government grants, of which £238.5 million is from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for the BBC World Service; * £72.1 million from other income, such as rental collections and royalties from overseas broadcasts of programming. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#Budget

"When it was established in 2005, ANO TV-Novosti invested $30 million in start-up costs to establish RT,[14] with a budget of $30 million for its first year of operation. Half of the network's budget came from the Russian government; the other half came from pro-Kremlin commercial banks at the government's request."

"About 80 percent of RT's costs are incurred outside Russia, paying partner networks around $260 million for the distribution of its channels in 2014."

"In 2015, RT was expected to receive 19 billion rubles ($307 million) from the Russian government in 2016."

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by tomcam on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:35PM (#14883107)
Oh yes
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by halter73 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @04:31PM (#14882885)
I think you're misreading the parent comment. They're not advocating for tax funded news organizations, but instead for a stronger social safety net. They're theorizing that this would enable people to pursue journalism without fear of losing their livelihoods because of struggles in that market sector.

I'm not saying that I agree with this position. I think that without capital, the news industry would shrink and struggle even with a strong social safety net to support its journalists. Personal blogs cannot fully replace well funded news organizations.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by RodericDay on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:44PM (#14883143)
I don't know why you're downvoted. This is a correct reading of my post.

I'm more concerned with the family of a daring journalist being safe regardless of their investigations, than with the actual remuneration of the journalist.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by __s on Saturday July 29, 2017 @03:59PM (#14882774)
CBC was pretty critical of the Conservatives while they ruled

Granted it's a debated topic: http://cbcexposed.blogspot.ca/2017/07/is-cbc-news-biased.htm...

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by untog on Saturday July 29, 2017 @04:43PM (#14882921)
Shouldn't "critical of the government" be the standard, though?
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by bch on Saturday July 29, 2017 @04:26PM (#14882864)
> CBC was pretty critical of the Conservatives while they ruled

That relationship was pretty combative from both sides, though, no?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cbc-budget-cut-by-115m-over-...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/cbc-funding-h...

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by nl on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:11PM (#14883876)
That's the point. It undermines the idea that publicly funded news organisation follow the government line.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by nl on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:14PM (#14883884)
That's not true in Australia. Our national broadcaster is considered by the (conservative) government to be too left wing, yet it is too popular to defund.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by am1988 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:28PM (#14883083)
Or they are funded via models which insulate them from the government of the day, allowing for them to report in a much less biased matter (they don't fear for their jobs).
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by WalterBright on Saturday July 29, 2017 @06:04PM (#14883207)
> Or they are funded via models which insulate them from the government of the day

Can't happen. Somebody is deciding to hand them money. That somebody's views are going to be catered too. Maybe not exactly, but close enough to keep the money flowing.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by jpttsn on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:36PM (#14883108)
The term natural monopoly keeps cropping up, seemingly with a definition other than the one I'm familiar with.

What does the natural adjective mean, the way you use it here?

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by _mhr_ on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:48PM (#14883155)
A natural monopoly is where a company operates in an industry in which either network effects or vertical integration make a big difference for the competitiveness of the company, so it's naturally incentivised within the market for one player to gradually become dominant. I don't buy that Google is a natural monopoly for search, but it makes sense for Amazon and Facebook, since network effects are huge. That's how I interpret it.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by jpttsn on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:55PM (#14883175)
Assuming that's true for Facebook, how could they be so threatened by Instagram? Snapchat? And how could Facebook even make a dent in MySpace, who fit the natural monopoly definition above just as well?

If social networking were a natural monopoly, could a startup really stand a chance?

I feel the fast pace of innovation and customer behavior shifts makes these products very different from oil and railroads.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by edaemon on Saturday July 29, 2017 @07:53PM (#14883610)
Facebook isn't really threatened by either of those companies. They own Instagram. They also own WhatsApp, which is overtaking Snapchat in users[1].

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/3/15537000/whatsapp-stories-...

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by mattnewton on Saturday July 29, 2017 @08:05PM (#14883660)
They were threatened enough to buy them at large valuations is gp's point.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by smallnamespace on Saturday July 29, 2017 @08:53PM (#14883818)
The fact that they were easily able to buy them up and still have piles of cash is exactly the sort of thing that a natural monopolist is able to do.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by true_religion on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:41PM (#14883959)
But anyone can buy a company in its infancy, and neuter it before it becomes a threat. This is possible even if the market is not one that would naturally give rise to monopoly, but rather one where monopoly is ensured by governmental acts or anti-competitive behavior by the most dominant company.

I prefer the more standard definition where a market that naturally tends to monopoly is one where a multi-company state is less efficient than a single company state.

In social networking, despite the power of network effects, having multiple companies is still efficient simply because people want to compartmentalize their networks of friends and interests. People want to use WhatsApp to talk to group A, and Skype to group B.

There's a tendency to assume that since phones were a monopoly, and mail is a monopoly, then all communication and social interaction aides must be naturally monopolies too, but that's not the case. Phones and mail were monopolies due to physical efficiency, not due to the desires of consumers.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by edaemon on Saturday July 29, 2017 @08:56PM (#14883828)
Are they all that threatening if they can simply buy them?
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by cjCamel on Saturday July 29, 2017 @07:41PM (#14883568)
>> I don't buy that Google is a

>> natural monopoly for search

Google has most of the search users, creating better data for improving its product (ad targeting and search), so it gets all of the ad budget for search. Data+ad revenue suffocates the competition of users and revenue creating a natural monopoly.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by idoh on Saturday July 29, 2017 @08:47PM (#14883804)
How do you distinguish between a "natural monopoly" and just a "monopoly"?
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by yorwba on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:31AM (#14884688)
One clear-cut example of an "unnatural monopoly" would be the state outlawing all but one company in an industry.

A natural monopoly in an area arises from the dynamics of the business itself, other monopolies require external forces to prop them up.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by dredmorbius on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:01PM (#14883839)
The term has a specific meaning in economics: a natural monopoly occurs when the most efficient number of firms in a market is one.

This can occur through a number of dynamics, generally attributed to economies of scale, though network effects also come into play.

I'm exploring the idea that monopolies (natural or otherwise) are almost always strongly tied to network phenomena (not just in a physical sense), and are largely synonymous with the concept of economic rent.

There are a number of elements which accompany monopoly status, only some of which are strictly economic. Many of the others involve overt political or other power.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by Aloha on Saturday July 29, 2017 @06:33PM (#14883294)
I personally don't see a good rationale for needing to recognize any of them as utilities.

There are alternatives to Amazon, Facebook and Google - good ones at that - while it /could/ be argued that a search engine is an essential product, I would argue the opposite - and even more so for social networking and online shopping - if I saw conclusive proof that any go them were using their market power to force competitors out of the market, I might be more agreeable to the concept.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by crdoconnor on Saturday July 29, 2017 @08:14PM (#14883692)
They've all used their market power to quash competitors.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by elefanten on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:31PM (#14883925)
Your language is debatable, on a case by case basis.

But even assuming it true, even that is not the standard by which anti-trust is judged. It's judged based on consumer welfare. That's where the debate should lie.

And no doubt it is a debate still. And the debate alone could shape actions and outcomes.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by _jal on Saturday July 29, 2017 @10:40PM (#14884124)
There's no doubt that the consumer welfare standard has been the AT standard for recent memory, but more folks are starting to question if that is the right standard. That's part of the discussion around some of this.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by crdoconnor on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:14AM (#14886021)
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by nikofeyn on Saturday July 29, 2017 @07:31PM (#14883534)
what are the alternatives?
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by nl on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:09PM (#14883866)
eBay, Snap/Twitter, Bing.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by hooluupig on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:43AM (#14884725)
Twitter is different from facebook.Snap is not and will never be a facebook alternative(vice versa).Because social network is not just client software but relationships.You can easily replace facebook/whatsapp with snapchat or whatever you like,but how do you persuade your friends and relatives to do that?If none of your friends use the alternatives,you have to reuse facebook.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by adventured on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:54PM (#14883989)
There is in fact a highly functional, proven alternative to what you're proposing.

It's the Intel approach. The US Government allowed Intel to keep its monopoly, while simultaneously restraining it enough that Intel wasn't able to truly lock out various competitors from rising up over time.

ARM, Samsung, nVidia, AMD, Taiwan Semi, etc.

It's also what ended up happening with Microsoft & Windows. Had the US Government not been involved at all, Microsoft could have trivially barred all competing search engines (bye Google) from their desktop platform, and all other browsers (bye Netscape, Chrome, Firefox), and all competing media software (bye iTunes), and so on.

Intel didn't have to be regulated as a fake natural monopoly that it in fact obviously wasn't (nor are Facebook or Google), in order to keep the lanes open to competition.

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by dredmorbius on Saturday July 29, 2017 @09:02PM (#14883844)
NB: it was oil transport and most especially refining which seemed to capture true monopoly rents, most especially where oilfield control was not unitised.

In the case of unitised oilfield control (that is: a single company or other entity controlled all extraction from a single resource), other monopoly powers might exist, most especially if the field exhibited lower-than-average costs (as in Saudi Arabia).

Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by tootie on Saturday July 29, 2017 @07:32PM (#14883539)
Aamzon isn't the #1 marketplace. They're the 9th largest retailer in a still very competitive space. Social media isn't important enough to regulate. Google Search is the only thing that could conceivably need regulation and really no one is demanding it right now.
Re:Jeff Bezos Escapes Scrutiny from His Own Paper–and Its Ri... by am1988 on Saturday July 29, 2017 @05:25PM (#14883066)
and so Bezos buys the post while the control FB and Google have on advertising (and increasingly the internet in general) just makes Journalism ever more reliant on them.