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Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by codeulike on Sunday May 28, 2017 @07:54PM (#14436627)
Put it this way: if we ever do create AIs that can (for want of a better yardstick) pass the Turing Test reliably, someone somewhere will stick them in a computer game for people to shoot at them. Sit and think about the philosophical implications of that for a minute.
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by NeutronBoy on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:33PM (#14436755)
Is there a difference between shooting at a character controlled by an AI, and shooting at a character controlled by another human?
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by codeulike on Monday May 29, 2017 @06:35AM (#14438441)
Yes of course. I'm hypothesising character AIs that don't know they are in a game. From their point of view, it's all 'real'. They might get built that way to maximise the realism of their behaviour.
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by castellar on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:06PM (#14436678)
The Turing test isn't really a good indicator of AI development. I don't disagree with the idea that using sufficiently advanced AI for entertainment could create ethical quandaries though.
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by codeulike on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:09PM (#14436688)
When people imagine what a Turing Test conversation would look like, they frequently underestimate the conversation. I find Dennet's example of an imaginary Turing Test from Consciousness Explained to be a good counterexample:

Judge: Did you hear about the Irishman who found a magic lamp? When he rubbed it a genie appeared and granted him three wishes. “I’ll have a pint of Guiness!” the Irishman replied and immediately it appeared. The Irishman eagerly set to sipping and then gulping, but the level of Guiness in the glass was always magically restored. After a while the genie became impatient. “Well, what about your second wish?” he asked. Replied the Irishman between gulps, “Oh well, I guess I’ll have another one of these.”

CHINESE ROOM: Very funny. No, I hadn’t heard it– but you know I find ethnic jokes in bad taste. I laughed in spite of myself, but really, I think you should find other topics for us to discuss.

J: Fair enough but I told you the joke because I want you to explain it to me.

CR: Boring! You should never explain jokes.

J: Nevertheless, this is my test question. Can you explain to me how and why the joke “works”?

CR: If you insist. You see, it depends on the assumption that the magically refilling glass will go on refilling forever, so the Irishman has all the stout he can ever drink. So he hardly has a reason for wanting a duplicate but he is so stupid (that’s the part I object to) or so besotted by the alcohol that he doesn’t recognize this, and so, unthinkingly endorsing his delight with his first wish come true, he asks for seconds. These background assumptions aren’t true, of course, but just part of the ambient lore of joke-telling, in which we suspend our disbelief in magic and so forth. By the way we could imagine a somewhat labored continuation in which the Irishman turned out to be “right” in his second wish after all, perhaps he’s planning to throw a big party and one glass won’t refill fast enough to satisfy all his thirsty guests (and it’s no use saving it up in advance– we all know how stale stout loses its taste). We tend not to think of such complications which is part of the explanation of why jokes work. Is that enough?

Dennett: "The fact is that any program that could actually hold up its end in the conversation depicted would have to be an extraordinary supple, sophisticated, and multilayered system, brimming with “world knowledge” and meta-knowledge and meta-meta-knowledge about its own responses, the likely responses of its interlocutor, and much, much more…. Maybe the billions of actions of all those highly structured parts produce genuine understanding in the system after all."

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by Retric on Sunday May 28, 2017 @09:12PM (#14436871)
The problem is not the quality of interaction, it's a question of what else an AI needs to pass the test. Living organisms have evolved to go about the process of life and avoid pointless death etc, but Thinking and Self preservation are separate. Even people chose to die for various reasons, so AI could be really strange.
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by wst_ on Sunday May 28, 2017 @10:07PM (#14437003)
This is exactly what I've been thinking. Above mentioned conversation is so rich that a lot of humans couldn't follow it in such a manner. And yet, there wouldn't be any doubts when talking with them face to face. Is this the right test after all? Or rather the question is, what are we testing actually? It seems to be nothing more than a mimicking human behavior. In this case - very smart and eloquent human. And this is exactly what Turing test is[1]. But does AI need to be able to follow such sophisticated dialogue to be considered an independent, self aware being?

[1] Turing: "Are there imaginable digital computers which would do well in the imitation game?"

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by wst_ on Sunday May 28, 2017 @09:19PM (#14436885)
If they would be so advanced as you say, they would probably be conscious enough to be able to play any game asked. If that's the case, we could just create them outside of a game and ask them to play against humans. They would, sort of, role play as NPC or as an adversary. That would solve the problem of acting violently against them. They wouldn't get hurt, since they wouldn't be the suffering characters per se. They would just play the same game and understood the implications.
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by StavrosK on Sunday May 28, 2017 @09:02PM (#14436840)
You think shooting at them is bad? What about quitting the game?
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by wst_ on Sunday May 28, 2017 @10:39PM (#14437096)
I think it depends on how much can you get yourself into the world and story. When you play CS/Quake death match the goal is simple, there's no second thought before pulling the trigger - there's not story to begin with, just frags/scores. But when you are playing some good RPG and come to some village, you could start the killing spree, see people around you crying, bleeding, crawling at your feet and begging for their lives... would you have any thoughts before pulling the trigger then?

My level of immersion usually is quite high if I like a game. Even today. Despite crud graphics and AI behavior. I'll use an imagination to tell the missing part of the story or give NPCs goals and desires. Simply because if feels better. By analogy, I would not kill innocent because that feels bad to me. So, if the day will come when all this missing part will get filled by brilliant AI I am not going to kill it either.

Probably the reason that people have no quarrels with killing everyone in a game is that it's very difficult to convince player that NPCs have a feelings. Even in modern AAA titles when you start shooting in the middle of the city it looks more ludicrous than real. People are frightened, sure, but very often they make really fake poses, run randomly with hands up, or do some other stupid things. It's hardly convincing, so shooting them is easy and players have no remorse about it. You can easily see they are fake. But should they behave really human-like, should you see their pain... would you still pull the trigger?

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by StavrosK on Monday May 29, 2017 @04:38AM (#14438102)
I mean that, if they're living, quitting the game is literally murder. Keep in mind that an intelligent AI wouldn't be hurt when you shot an NPC any more than a show writer would be hurt when a character got shot in the show.

There wouldn't be one AI that felt pain per NPC, it would be a general orchestrator deciding which NPC to make cry and how they should act.

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by CM30 on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:08PM (#14436686)
Eh, I see where you're coming from, but I just consider fiction to be seperate from reality by category. It's like the difference between you imagining you're committing a crime and hurting a bunch of people and you actually committing a crime and hurting a bunch of people.

Those in the dream might have arguably better AI than any video game character could hope to have and be as realistic as possible. But they're also not real. They don't matter and simply cannot matter.

Same goes for virtual acts towards real people's avatars. If they're within the rules of the game and what the creators of it intended, then they're not against the law. Because you haven't really done anything to them.

Otherwise you may as well start saying it's wrong to kill players in a MMORPG setting or what not.

Then again, I'm also someone who thinks fictional worlds should be treated as if they were completely seperate universes to the 'real' one in general. Murder, theft, assault, terrorism... right down to copyright infringement shouldn't be banned in a fictional world unless that world's setup explicitly sets laws against those things.

We have to keep fiction and reality seperate.

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by andrewflnr on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:26PM (#14436738)
> but I just consider fiction to be seperate from reality by category

This is a circular argument. Whether a sentient NPC is, in fact, still fiction is the entire question.

The story in the game is fictional, but at some point the medium bottoms out on something with physical reality. The risk is of the medium of the story having rights. The nearest real-world analogue would be if you were trying to put on a realistic Hamlet, so you get some clone people to play the people who die and then you actually kill them. Is that murder? That they died in the course of producing entertainment.

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by codeulike on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:14PM (#14436701)
I don't think I'm talking about fiction. OK, how about looking at it this way: At some point game designers will need to start simulating things like 'fear' to make NPCs more realistic. Then imagine the simulation getting better and better and better. Its easy to imagine them simulating a whole complex range of feelings and responses, simulating an inner-world for the NPCs. Then apply moore's law and let the simulations exponentially improve in accuracy and fidelity year on year. At what point would simulations of fear and terror in NPCs start to make you feel uneasy? Unless you believe in dualism or some sort of bio-centrism that means machines can never be conscious, I think there are interesting ethical issues there.
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by _s on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:34PM (#14436756)
If machines develop a conscious; then at that point, by definition, they should be self-aware enough to recognise that they are a machine; ergo our definition and understanding of "life" itself is something that needs to change, no?

For the time being I think there will always be a clear divide between biological life (as we know it currently), and "virtual" or machine life, as we create it - I think these ethical questions will come in to play when the two become intermixed enough to not be distinguishable one way or another, which I think is still a far way off.

The reason I say the above is just based on our history as a species, and our current treatment of biological life - I think "virtual" life will likely be treated as 2nd class compared to biological life, at least at the beginning.

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by wst_ on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:51PM (#14436803)
By what definition? Could you point to any resource that defines such case?

I am seeing it completely opposite. Assuming they gain a self awareness, they would know nothing about server they are living on. They wouldn't know a thing about our world or about the player. They'd think that their world is the one and, if any, will see other servers or our world as some sort of "heaven" or another dimension. Would you know if our universe would run on some server?

That is, unless someone told them that they have been created for a sake of entertainment and will die as soon as player is bored enough to uninstall the game. Which would probably make them behave completely different than expected, since they would know they aren't "real". Not to mention that it would simply be a cruel thing to do, considering above mentioned assumption.

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by stale2002 on Sunday May 28, 2017 @09:06PM (#14436849)
What if instead of simulating someone who is afraid, what if you instead simulate a really good actor who is only pretending to be afraid, and loves being in a video game?

Moral quandary solved!

I mean, I could certainly imagine myself having a good time pretending to be the bad guys who fight the player character.

Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by codeulike on Monday May 29, 2017 @03:21AM (#14437863)
Yes that's an interesting angle on it
Re:Truly intelligent enemies could change the face of gaming by Zarath on Sunday May 28, 2017 @08:26PM (#14436742)
Can't believe you are receiving downvotes my friend. It seems very likely that consciousness is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex system. Given that this is the case, if we have a computational system such that it sufficiently mimics all nonphysical human behavior, it's very tough to argue that it does not share consciousness, especially if you are not a solipsist.